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Deja vu, OOO.

16 replies [Last post]
Thu, 08/18/2011 - 15:29
Guhnom

Looks like the game's having another crisis. Energy prices are rising, players are getting whiny, everyone's quitting.. I can't imagine why this is happening! Wait, yes I can. The last big boom of new players are all reaching 5* now, getting lots of crowns they want nothing to do with (except to buy CE with), and those who do buy energy have no reason to sell it for crowns anymore. Didn't this happen 2 months ago? Yeah.

The only things that have changed since then are PvP and Roarmulus. Punch and Vise, various bugfixes. Absolutely nothing else has changed. And frankly, these changes haven't been what the game needs--remotely.

PvP
To my knowledge, the game is still hosted on Amazon's lovely cloud somewhere in Western US, which spells lag for most players who live in any other part of the world. This renders PvP unplayable for many--although without lag, the game is still full of irritating features/bugs. PvP ended up like most other bosses: there's no reason to do it once you've got enough coins for the 1-3 items you want to buy/craft. At first I thought it'd would be fun, it'd be a challenge, etc, but it quickly became evident that win/lose was based on how badly you were lagging in the match, and score rankings weren't even based on SKILL, but on the FREQUENCY in which you play the game. You can win every match you play for an hour a day, and still not rank. Whereas a player who sits at the computer for 6 hours a day and LOSES EVERY BATTLE will end up in 1st place. Not only that, but there's still no prize for being on the leaderboards. It really oughtn't take this long to implement something; hell, even a temporary CE or bombhead prize would suffice as a placeholder until you figure out what you're trying to do.
tl;dr: There is no reward for playing PvP. I'm not talking about a physical 1000ce prize, but there's no satisfaction from playing PvP anymore. If you lag, you lose. And if you don't play for 8 hours a day, you still lose in the long (week-long) run. Bombheads are rare enough that it's not even a factor in whether or not I play anymore, let alone winning another krogmo coin--add that to the useless stack of hundreds that I've got.

Roarmulus
Roarmulus never made it big like Jelly or Vanaduke; it's down there beyond salvaging, just like Snarby. The levels are dull and repetitive, more timing based than skill based; material/crown/heat gains are unimpressive, and Brinks' rewards aren't even that attractive to farm. Honestly, Roarmulus really had no hope of ever making it big, and frankly I don't see any future bosses (save for T3 maybe) making it big either, unless they sport some very attractive rewards like Sealed Sword, Crest or FoV.

Punch and Vise
Punch was supposed to be a crownsink, and for a brief moment, it worked. Everyone scrambled to purchase CE and sell it so they could afford Punch's outrageous prices. Soon it became clear that he had a knack for screwing you over with crappy UVs and just stealing your money--really, 375kcr (6-7kce) for a triple UV, which very well might end up as LOW LOW LOW? No thanks. You're better off masscrafting an item for a UV, instead of betting with Punch. You'll always lose. (in before "hurr durr no I got CTR:very high on my sword and it only took 3 tries")

As for Vise, he's ANOTHER ENERGYSINK in the game. That's honestly the last thing we need. What is it with making everything cost energy in this game? If Vise cost crowns (an absurd amount), people would be just as likely to purchase CE and sell it on the player market so they can unbind an item that much faster. Might mean a slight loss in profits, but it won't spell out another failing game.

No other changes?
No, and the power plays and giveaways really aren't helping the game right now. Certainly can't save yourselves with a second Steam release, and new content (be it clockworks, balancing or guildhall) is faaaaaaaaar off. You might as well work on fixing what's already there, instead of trying to hide it behind new shiny things before everyone those shinies are broken too.

What ever happened to the Rose Regalia-style events? That was wildly successful for both your pockets and the game's success, and the game is screaming for a) new rare items and b) an inflow CE right now. Instead of churning out a new rare, purchase-able item which will net you tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in a couple weeks, sure, just do another Birdsong giveaway. Just prepare for the hate that'll follow from more disgruntled players who didn't win, come Monday.

Maybe while you're at it, you could fix PvP so that it's SKILL BASED scoring, and add rewards so that players will actually PLAY it. It doesn't have to be a transcendent fabric that's had tens of days of thought put into it. Just put a shiny placeholder in there, hell, distract ME.

In before
"Shut up whiner and don't play the game if you hate it". I don't hate the GAME, I hate what's HAPPENING to it--I'm not going to pretend that the game is perfect and that I love everything about it when it's clearly FAILING YET AGAIN while everyone around me is getting bored/disgruntled/angry and quits playing.

Thu, 08/18/2011 - 15:51
#1
souron
Legacy Username
Bitter, Gnome. Very Bitter

But in seriousness, I don't mind the birdsong/surge weekends, but I do think they could be comboed with other things. For instance: A power surge weekend plus CE sale will dampen the affects it has on the CE market, and also give a double incentive for a lot of people who normally don't pay to spend $10 or so.

Combo birdsong with an item sale. Whatever item you give as a prize at the daily special giveaway, make available as a buyable item. Maybe even make so you can only buy that item that day. The one guy with the special item will feel less special, of course, but everyone else will be happy. around 3 oclock when most of the server realize they can't win that special armor ( i want it to be a top hat, but ... anyways) they'll click on their account and chip in the $3-5 they need.

PVP

Lag is really, really annoying, and I don't know what you guys can do to fix it, honestly. I've stopped playing bomberman because I have a mac and not getting kicked out of the game is a crapshoot. I know you wanted to make the leaderboard more meaningful by resetting them every week, but here's a better solution: don't make scoring based on total wins. Make it an average. It would give people a lot stronger incentive to play, because they know they'd need at least 20-30 more games to move up a percentage point or two.

I've only been playing for a month, so I still enjoy the game, a lot. I've bought CE twice and I don't regret it one bit. But I can see in another month only playing once or twice a week when I know my friends are on, unless a cool new bomb or boss comes out and I decide I want it.

EDIT:
Oh, and Roarmulus? I loved the battle – it's like an old platformer boss, where you have to use your enemies attacks against him. I love the shock bomb, and I want to look like an astronaut so I'm fine with the prizes. But I just don't get why the heat and monies can't be comparable to JK? Clearly, the Dev's know how much JK is farmed, so in not making the payoff as high they had to know it wouldn't be run as much as his gelatinous peer. I like the levels, but it's just not worth my mist anymore. ( the same could be said for any non-boss tier, but... that's an old and completely different discussion).

Thu, 08/18/2011 - 16:41
#2
bananafish28
Legacy Username
understanding economics

although players do not like the rising energy prices, in general the prices are fair. it is dictated by the supply and demand of Cr/CE as well as the yield of Cr/100 CE from a Clockwork run. If you can convince enough players to spend real $ for CE, yes you will eventually lower CE market prices.

what else would lower CE prices, raise elevator prices, reduce rewards on Clockwork runs so they are less profitable.

But of course, if they did this, the same people complaining about high energy prices will still be saying it is too expensive to play.

Yes, most people would like to get everything for free or the next best thing, getting it without much effort of earning it. But alas, if you aren't trying to get rich quick and you're willing to take time to earn and be patient, you can play without infusing any more real $ into the game.

Thu, 08/18/2011 - 17:00
#3
souron
Legacy Username
Er, did you read our posts past the first line?

I'm under the impression that we understand supply and demand. I don't like high CE prices, but mostly I don't like that I have less of an incentive to buy CE with $$, and even less incentive to sell my CE when it's so easy to get crowns and only a few things I'll buy. No, I'm worried about few substantial content additions to make the game stay fun. If a content addition lowers CE prices, awesome. If it doesn't ... ah well. School's coming up, I can stand to play a little less.

Thu, 08/18/2011 - 17:06
#4
Kogoya
@Unicornkitty

Unicornkitty, Thank you very much for pointing out the lack of worth in playing pvp and the failure of the current ranking system. I've been trying to suggest changing the ranking system to no avail, like changing it to rank kill-death ratio or something else. However, would there be a problem in changing the rankings to make it skill-based? The only notable problem I can see is that bribing becomes worthless once you realize you're facing the guy with the best kill-death ratio. The only reason I still play Blast Network is to sell mod calibrators by buying them with tokens (hey, I win my games now and then, so why not?)

Although I like the fact that you're concerned about pvp, how does it relate to ce prices going up so much? Just wondering.

Thu, 08/18/2011 - 17:43
#5
Ken-Shiro
A lot of people are saying

A lot of people are saying it's more demand for energy now. But for me, the question is why there is more demand after the power surge? Because the initial increase was the result of it and people are willing to pay a higher price, but it is over now. Maybe people are starting to craft more now? And why is it hard to get people to sell energy or buy at the courtyard by piecemeal than before the power surge? Also before all the updates when energy was at 3k, why were prices still higher for items that can be easily gotten with like tokens, etc, and people were potentially doing more engine runs. I'm not sure if that was the exact question I"m looking for, I"ll come back and update later.

Okay, now I relatively remember my question. My question is this about increase demand increasing prices. If prices were higher before the steam promotion, and steam brought an influx of players, why didn't the energy increase for awhile when people were making a lot of crowns from more dungeon runs than before, and from mass crafting? And this effects me a lot because I decided to start with the azure set(after stupidly thinking recipes for others are more expensive, etc), and crafted when prices were around 4800-5200 cr/100ce, and when heavy gears were 4000 a piece and sun silver was 8k, now the mass crafters that chose better sets like the wolver line has gotten those cheap.

Thu, 08/18/2011 - 17:44
#6
souron
Legacy Username
@Ranzo

The surge allowed people to get double crowns for mist than they normally could, which meant everyone had more money. More money all around creates inflation, and therefore a (temporary?) spike in CE prices. In addition there aren't as enough things to spend crowns on, so they're not worth very much and there are less CE sellers looking for monies.

@ Ranzo's edit
The steam promotion caused a ton of people to buy starter packs. A lot of these people were newer, hadn't placed a solid value on the CE yet, and because they were T1 they didn't have a lot of crowns or a way to get a lot of crowns. So a ton of the new players sold CE, dramatically increasing supply for a while. Now that the insurge of new players has died down, supply also drops, causing prices to go up. Also, a lot of the steam players are now T3 and able to get a lot of money and buy CE with it, increasing demand.

Thu, 08/18/2011 - 17:31
#7
Dirt
Legacy Username
ITT: Wahhh.

ITT: Wahhh.

Thu, 08/18/2011 - 21:46
#8
Guhnom
Really?

If you have nothing to offer in your post, DON'T POST. Has it occurred to you that whining, as you so affectionately treat it, happens for a reason? Since when has players voicing complaints been a negative thing? I'm pointing out very valid problems and offering realistic solutions. Get off your privileged throne and be a troll elsewhere, Dirt.

@kogoya They're really just two concerns brought together in the same post. The same phenomena that's happening now happened at this time just over 2 months ago--last time the game was saved by the steam release. I brought up PvP since it was introduced as a mechanism to PREVENT the failure that's going on right now, except due to poor scoring/matching/reward mechanics (and horrendous lag), PvP's not doing too hot as a distraction.
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Problem is that nobody purchases CE from OOO anymore to sell on the open market, since they don't need the crowns for anything, except that one recipe or maybe a frivolous triple UV roll, which will end in disaster anyway. Curious to see what rabbit the devs decide to pull out of a hat this time.. or if they plan to do this every 2 months.

Thu, 08/18/2011 - 22:05
#9
Arctic-Fern's picture
Arctic-Fern
How about OOO not running a

How about OOO not running a power surge...

@souron:
"The steam promotion caused a ton of people to buy starter packs. A lot of these people were newer..."

I feel so guilty. :D
But when I came in through Steam... and bought my starter pack, crowns/CE were already in the 6.8k... so even though I regret selling my CE for crowns before, in hindsight (as in now) it's apparently a good idea and I should've done it more.

Thu, 08/18/2011 - 22:18
#10
Dzxi's picture
Dzxi
ce prices arent "fair" when

ce prices arent "fair" when people artifically make the price rise but putting up a wall of 200+ requests at a peak price, waiting for other offers to raise up price and then removing all 200+ and then putting it back at a higher price over and over.

Thu, 08/18/2011 - 22:23
#11
KinkyPenguin
Legacy Username
Just add new promotional

Just add new promotional items that are tied with Team Fortress 2!
Seriously instead of receiving a hat when you reach Haven, TF2 players should get a better hat when they reach tier 3. TF2 players would do anything for hats(ie, spend hundreds of dollars on unusuals), even i played this game for the free hat

Thu, 08/18/2011 - 22:26
#12
Tengu's picture
Tengu
I agree with these sentiments

I agree with these sentiments to a degree. Personally, I feel BN doesn't do anything for the gameplay or the economy, as there's a bunch of people crammed into the cloud servers who aren't actually playing Spiral Knights.

Look I'll be frank here. If there isn't any OOO regulation on the economy, the game will most likely tank. It's not working out how they planned, as people would rather not play than put their credit card numbers in. They're also paying to feed the bandwidth of the BN players.

Every time a player goes into a BN game, the pay 200cr. Every time a SK player goes to another level, they pay 1/10th of the trade cost, which would be 570+-cr. Good BN players get 4 times the amount back every time they play. Good SK players can maybe net 1.5-2x their gate cost in an arena or in certain T3 levels. Good players in BN just...show up. Good players in SK have been playing long enough to have the gear necessary to delve into the richer areas, which will cost what....20KCE for a 4* set with a 5* in there somewhere?

Thu, 08/18/2011 - 23:03
#13
Noobowns
Legacy Username
Punch and Vise was frowned

Punch and Vise was frowned upon by many people during the first few hours bases on the insane prices. Later people realized how useful they actually are. The ability to sell sealed swords and antiguas is amazing due to the ability to unbind them, and the price increase for any such item with a UV from Punch helps tremendously.

I do in turn take my chances with a craft through the series of an item, but at its 5 star, i will consult Punch if I do not like what I get, assuming I get anything. You save money by buying from Punch than Mass crafting. 200 energy for a 3 star item, it is slightly ridiculous, but only 15k to guarantee a UV, under 5k extra than the crafting price.

It was IMO a great addition.

Fri, 08/19/2011 - 00:21
#14
Twiddle's picture
Twiddle
...more timing based than

...more timing based than skill based...

Aside from that, you have some good points.

PvP rank is based more on who played pvp longer and less on who is good at the game. They should make it so you lose rank points for every loss and gain rank points for every win. That way there would be some value to pvp ranking other than amount of time spent playing pvp. Either way you should still get your coin so you can get pvp rewards eventually.

Also, lag is a real killer in bomber... erm blast network. Also, the game has a few glitches. Anyone who hid in a supposedly safe spot and got clipped by an explosion can attest to this. But I can't use that as an excuse. I'm just terrible at the game. O: Hopefully I'll be better at lockdown when it comes out. (=

I also agree that Roarmulus has terrible rewards. I play the strata because I love the level layout and the boss, but the rewards are not that great. This is especially true on Warfare Workshop. The token reward is not much better. What do you trade your tokens in for? Catalyzers (a gun that is awesome when used accurately but is inaccurate by design,) Shock bombs (not as powerful as fire bombs, not as much CC as frost bombs, not that great on beasts and gremlins,) Quicksilver gear (only source of movespeed boost in the game, but has defenses covered by no less than 3 other existing armor sets,) and pulsars (actually a decent weapon.) Basically, stuff that looks cool but isn't as good as what already exists (except maybe the pulsar line...)

Yes, Roarmulus rewards could use some tweaking.

Fri, 08/19/2011 - 00:18
#15
Steinhauser
Legacy Username
@Kinky Penguin My god that's

@Kinky Penguin
My god that's the best idea in this topic. And probably the suggestion most likely to make a difference. (And the most likely to be implemented, come to think of it)

Fri, 08/19/2011 - 01:41
#16
Arctic-Fern's picture
Arctic-Fern
^^ With regards to the TF2

^^ With regards to the TF2 suggestion, I'd change it to gaining a new achievement (that earns the hat) called something like "Tier 2 Master" with the following prerequisites:
1. beat the Royal Jelly
2. beat the Roary Twins
3. gain Tier 3 clearance

This will be more aggravating for them and make the hat much more coveted. ANYONE can reach Tier 3 using just $$$...

@Zanoni: You'll make a living selling them pulsars. It's better than earning the Sealed Antiguas... :D

I made so many bark tokens I even wasted them. Goddamn Industrial Catalyzer, no one wants to buy it... good thing I didn't unbind it yet.

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