As much as I hate the idea that EVERY item binds on equip I understand that with the game being about item level instead of character level it's needed, but it sucks to just build up junk in your inventory. I'd like to suggest an NPC that can un-bind your items and reset their heat level in the process, therefore making them tradeable.
Unbind
Tue, 04/05/2011 - 19:28
Sat, 04/16/2011 - 14:21
#2
Don't approve. It would ruin
Don't approve. It would ruin the economy as prices for everything would plummet if one could just trade all gear they used once.
Also, if the item can be upgraded to another star level, go do that and sell the new item.
Sat, 04/16/2011 - 17:10
#3
Another reason they don't do
Another reason they don't do this is because as there is no level requirement for weapons (as there are no character levels) someone just starting could potentially get a 4* item on day one from a friend or something else. This is much more likely to happen if you could unbind your armour/weapon.
Sun, 04/17/2011 - 00:34
#4
lol, no. bind on equip was a
lol, no. bind on equip was a good idea.
just use the search box to find ur gear.
Sun, 04/17/2011 - 05:09
#5
See whats wrong?
Binding on equip can get annoying, but it is there for a reason, and a good one at that.
If you had someone craft you up to 5 star gear, immediately, it would be pretty whack.
The goal is for to keep doing runs, and buy recipes from traders, forcing you to buy energy to craft eventually, whether with crowns or with money.
So basically you gotta keep saving up, doing runs, buying recipes, buying energy.
As a person who is playing free it will be tough, and will take much longer.
People who buy energy can progress much faster, but that is the point of paying.
Sun, 04/17/2011 - 15:22
#6
Not so sure either side is right.
@Rentago: The way the economy looks right now, free will go from slow to none at all soon enough.
I think an issue with your premise is that it's possible to progress going entirely free - it will soon become too hard.
I agree that the bind is there for a reason, but I think it's a bit too tight.
I think there should be a way to unbind, but it should motivate the economy rather than just be a money sink. How about paying the material costs for the item so you can unbind it? Or maybe breaking down equipment to its most expensive mats or half the CE?
The problem is not so much the binding as it is what to do with bound items you no longer want to use.
One of the game's issues is the forcing of plotting out the course of your equipment. I have a Brute Jelly Shield and Cobalt Set since I didn't know I'd rather have Wolver and its sequels. What should I do with those? Selling is a bit counter intuitive, since I did actually find a use for the Cobalt Set. But the problem remains that you can't do anything, anything at all, with really old items.
So with that issue as a taken, I propose that alternatives be discussed and thought about. I actually think mine are pretty good.
Sun, 04/17/2011 - 17:57
#7
@Anaxim, you're just wrong.
@Anaxim, you're just wrong. It is entirely possible to make it all the way through the game without ever acquiring CE. You need a small to moderate amount of CE if you want to forge tier 4 and tier 5 gear, but there's perfectly viable vendor-bought gear at those tiers even if you never purchase CE and never trade for crafted goods with crowns. You won't get to run more than 10 levels per day (or at a time), but that doesn't actually prevent you from doing anything - it just slows you down.
Binding is the way that equipment is taken out of the economy. it's simple, straightforward, and works to do the thing it's supposed to do. If you'd rather not have certain bound gear, then go ahead and sell it to a vendor for a pittance in crowns.
In your particular case, the jelly shields are useful for some things (running the jelly king, if nothing else) and may well be worth upgrading as a shield swap at higher levels Duelist Buckler stops being viable for blocking after a while, and you'll need some sort of a 4* shield to even get into tier 3. The Cobalt Set probably won't bring you much joy, but you can use it as costume pieces for grins and giggles, and you may find that after you're high enough level, you want to try out playstyles other than the strong melee focus that the Wolver sets call for.
Mon, 04/18/2011 - 08:40
#8
@Sirrocco, I think you may have missed my point.
I'll address in points, each point being a paragraph of yours:
1) I'd like to say that if you do not acquire CE, you do not enjoy the game. 10 floors go by quick, especially for a newbie who thought that paying energy is the only way to rez (happened to me, blew 50 Mist like that, on a high difficulty arena). You need at least 60k to go anywhere near making 5* gear, and that's after getting a recipe. Most people who don't regularly get CE using crowns will never see the ~100k to make a 5* piece of equipment.
Whatever the vendors sell, it is hardly enough. Overpriced decent items that would take ages for someone not trading for CE get. Not to mention that only gets you to 3*. No T3 unless you cough up enough crowns. Which you won't have unless you do some serious business, tons of solo runs and plenty of CE trading.
As for slowing down. I'd call it slowing to a halt, since it means it has the volume of a chubby Facebook game. Once a day, around 24 hours later (I know it's less, but still), you get about an hour of game time.
2) Why take it out of the economy? You work hard and pay a lot for something. Why should you not receive due worth back? I'm willing to settle for being unable to unbind UV, but regular old items... The real dampener is going 4*, which is both expensive and hard for an average Joe. I worked _really_ hard to get myself up to 4*. Cost in the realms, if I had statistics, of 120k. That's _with_ cash buying of CE.
I'd rather resell it, then throw it away. Akin to the factor of the discussion about raising vendor prices for mat selling. I find it terrible to just vendor sell a piece of equipment, when people struggle to get some equipment, especially lower key players.
3) I'm decked out in 4* gear, some of it decently leveled. I made it all myself, as I had said. At least the 4* upgrade bit.
Not a lot of people can see what to do there. I've met people who were on the fence, or got a 2* item but couldn't get enough crowns to upgrade it.
I understand your aversion to unbinding equipment, or finding good uses for it besides selling to a vendor. But the fact is, from my view point, is that the economy is in the s****** because too much equipment is running around and too many people have to buy recipes others have.
The economy does not have enough sinks that promote it.
You can argue that you can play without getting in this mess, but you call 1 hour a day, at a snail's pace, playing? Do you play like this?
Please do not lash out if I made odd points, or some that contradict themselves, or whatever other crime against the rules of discussion. I am sure you get the spirit of my post just fine.
Mon, 04/18/2011 - 10:23
#9
I will struggle mightily to
I will struggle mightily to resist the urge to lash out. :P
- Yes, I do call it playing. Both I and my wife play this game, though we're relatively new at it. Neither of us has yet used CE, and I doubt either of us will ever use it heavily for elevator fees (or, indeed, that she'll use CE for elevator fees at all). The game is not the end of the game. The game is the whole game. I've trundled my way through tier 1, and just started to play in tier 2. Honestly, by the time I finish making it through tier 2, I expect that I'll have spent significantly more time playing (and enjoying) this game than many games i have paid for in the past. Playing the game at a slower pace is not the end of the world. Having play time limited to 1 hour a day isn't horrible. It may even be a good idea. Worth noting that the *quality* of this game is far higher than pretty much everything I've seen on Facebook.
Mind you, it's not that we intend to play entirely without CE. We are going to be indulging in some higher-level crafting, and I may eventually spend some on gate fees (though likely not all that much. The point is that you can play and progress without spending any energy at all - meaning that the price of energy in crowns cannot possibly destroy the game entirely no matter how high it gets - and that if you're only using small to moderate amounts of CE, the price would have to get very high indeed before it was inaccessible.
- You take it out of the economy to avoid what happened with diablo 2, only far worse. If gear can be reused over and over, then you get things like guild sets of twinking gear, where guild newbies borrow the gear long enough to jump over tier 1 and tier 2. A significant part of the playable, enjoyable game is lost. The slow process of working your way up through the tiers and crafting your own gear get dissolved away as the market gradually gluts with tier 3 and tier 4 gear at continually reducing prices. It would be worse here, because in Spiral Knights, gear *is* your character progression. Likewise, buying your own recipes is part of the point. If we had the fast, easy availability of resold tier 2-4 gear, then trying to craft your own at that point essentially would become an exercise in masochism. The people who enjoy crafting, who like the idea of wielding things that they've made, would have to either put off this enjoyable aspect of the game until close to endgame, or be forced to spend resources in obviously inefficient ways. Also, the glut would mean that people wouldn't be crafting as much, which removes one of the energy sinks from the game. That's bad, from a developers-must-get-paid POV.
Essentially, then, struggling to get tier 4 equipment is a huge part of the game. Take that away, and you have less game. It's a part of the game I'm rather looking forward to.
Now, it's true that we could have more efficient used gear consumption without this problem, but there would still be issues.
- Vendors could offer more crowns - significantly so: This is largely unobjectionable except to note that it effectively adds another source of crowns to the game (or removes a sink, depending on how you look at it). Handling that would likely require adding another crown sink or two to the economy. It would also mean that UV crafters would have some place to easily dump all of their unused blanks - effectively removing a source of cheap low-level equipment (mostly tier 2/3, plus haze bombs) while also making UV gear that much more accessible.
- Break it down for mats: This makes things a *lot* easier on the UV crafters, which might actually be good in some ways, as more people would get into UV-crafting, and particularly into chain-crafting, leading, potentially, to more consumption of CE. CE consumption is a good thing. It makes the game go. On the other hand, though, it means that mats become that much less valuable - leading to even more overfull piles of unwanted mats in everyone's inventories, with associated changes in economy. If this is implemented alongside a "vendors pay a bit more for mats" change, then you don't have the same problems of mat-glut, but it dumps some extra crowns into the economy.
- Break it down for CE: no. just no. There shouldn't be any way to add CE to the economy other than someone paying cash. That's what makes the system work. It is simple and beautiful, and really ought not be mucked with. Otherwise, some day someone's going to be running around buying 5* gear from vendors and breaking it down for the CE. That's bad.
- Break it down for mist energy: less bad than breaking it down for CE, but still abusable in odd little edge cases. and generally not worth doing.
Mon, 04/18/2011 - 12:50
#10
Positives about Binding - If
Positives about Binding - If someone hacks your account, that hacker doesn't steal your item! Only matz!
Negatives about Binding - You have nooby junk that sticks with you.
I approve of unbinding items! =D I always wish to give off my nooby gear to newcomer friends of mine!
Mon, 04/18/2011 - 14:02
#11
ok, how about this!
Instead of unbinding an item you can "sell" it to a special merchant who calculates its selling price based on its crafting or original cost and its level using the equation (1/2 x) + (y (1/4 x)) Where x= original or recipie price and y= current item level. But, this can't be used on 5* stuff, cause you don't really wana sell that, do ya?
Example: I bought a punch gun in the rescue camp for 150 crowns but only got it to level 3 so (1/2 X 150) + (3 X 38) = 189 crowns, a slight profit for your work with a crappy single shot pistol!
Do this, Three Rings, I even gave you the danged maths!
Oh, secondary example! If you forged the weapon instead of buying, you run the equation for crowns, but only get half the used energy and no mats.
Mon, 04/18/2011 - 15:05
#12
@Sirrocco, I accept all your points. They are valid.
I'd like to make this short and sweet.
I think there should be an expensive way to unbind gear.
Way I see it, anything you can easily get - CE and crowns - are no currency to make the economy better.
I understand the part of the game of going after certain recipes. I also understand that a good number of my friends, and myself included, would love to be able to unbind.
My original thought was that it must be level 10. The one after that was that it must be difficultish.
Cleanly for crowns is a no go. Same for CE. I still think paying the materials for it to unbind is fair. If there are no materials (ala Antigua and Sealed Sword) then they can't be unbound.
I am positive we won't find a way we can agree on. So I won't try to make a push.
I still think, above all, that something more than vendor selling old gear should be possible. Unbinding or not.
Fri, 07/01/2011 - 21:13
#13
I dont wanna be the one to
I dont wanna be the one to revive a dead topic but [i will anyway >:D] why cant you have an option to equip an item but not be able to use it. While you level up that weapon you use another but the weapon you are using doesn't level up at all. Sounds like a fair compromise to me. Maybe just change how to get this (ex:use CE/Crowns/real money or whatever to use this with that item of choice) Or will this "ruin the economy"?
Fri, 07/01/2011 - 22:30
#14
+1
I want to be able to unbind my gear. I have so many useless 3 star and 4 star gear... which i dont really need. I wanna unbind them.
Tue, 07/05/2011 - 23:52
#15
(1/2 x) + (y (1/4 x)) = GREAT idea.
+1 to the OP, as well as wasd555's idea.
This is really smart, and something like this should be implemented.
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 10:44
#16
Agree
The item binding was a really bad idea.
I hope they will get rid of it.
Fri, 07/22/2011 - 10:25
#17
They have. Check
They have. Check Announcements. Although we should close this thread, and open one up about wasd555's formula.
I agree. Here's an example that shows that bound equipment is obnoxious:
I made a Cutter for the weapon requirement of Tier 2. Since making enough money to get to a 3* or 4* weapon would take forever on tier 1, and using my tier 1 weapon would suck for tier 2, I equipped this cutter.
Now a few days later, I have enough money to make a Striker. However, my Cutter is level 10 so I can't trade it to somebody else to craft the Striker for me. Buying the Striker recipe would cost me 5.5k from the merchant, and probably 7-9k from another player - making an entirely new cutter would only cost me 50 energy, which is about 2k at current market price.
It's cheaper for me to remake my Cutter than it is to buy the Striker recipe. So now I have a worthless, untradeable level 10 Cutter that I'm never going to use ever again. Nor am I going to upgrade it to another Striker, because that would be too expensive and also stupid.
Resetting items to level 1 to make them tradeable again would be fair, either that or the price of recipes needs to go down (considering crafting an item costs a lot of energy anyway - this will make free play crafting practically impossible since CE is going to keep going up). Perhaps there could be a list of items that would not be allowed to be reset, like the Sealed Sword and Antigua lines. Or maybe no 5* items could be reset at all because you don't need to upgrade those anymore.