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Remove the second arena from arena levels

15 replies [Last post]
Sat, 09/03/2011 - 01:30
Quasirandom's picture
Quasirandom

There has been discussion elsewhere about problems with players abusing the group joining system by looping arenas. They do this because arenas in particular offer far greater drops than other levels at the same depth.

There has likewise been discussion elsewhere about problems with griefers refusing to get on an elevator because they want to wait for an arena. They do this also because arenas offer far greater drops than other levels at the same depth.

See the common thread? The underlying problem is that arenas offer rewards way out of line with other maps. Looping arenas and people refusing to get onto elevators are problems that need to be addressed. But the underlying cause is that arenas drop too much loot.

Now, I realize that there is supposed to be a risk/reward proposition here. The problem is that even if you skip the risk and end the level after two arenas, you still get far greater rewards than all but a handful of other levels in the game.

The solution is to reduce arena maps from three arenas to two by deleting the second arena. That way, if you do one arena and then bail out, you still get drops roughly in line with other levels, or perhaps a little lighter. If you do both arenas, you'd still get huge drops for the level, about in line with a clockwork tunnels+danger room, and the highest in the game if you don't count boss tokens.

So why delete the second arena? Because it's the easiest one. The third arena needs to stay, as the justification for extra drops is the extra risk. If you wanted to delete the first arena instead of the second, I'd be fine with that, too.

-----

Conversely, Three Rings out to beef up the rewards in some levels that don't drop much. Concrete Jungle and Deconstruction Zone maps are probably the worst offenders here. You could fix Concrete Jungle maps by perhaps adding another wave to the arenas.

Deconstruction Zone maps are more awkward to tweak, as having 2/3 of the mobs in the entire zone chasing you at once can get hairy. I'd favor tweaking the random map generator to have keys and five locks rather than three. Two extra rooms with mobs would bring the level more in line with others.

Sat, 09/03/2011 - 02:45
#1
Tauburnasaurus
"There has been discussion

"There has been discussion elsewhere about problems with players abusing the group joining system by looping arenas. They do this because arenas in particular offer far greater drops than other levels at the same depth."

That is because the arenas are a lot more challenging that other levels - especially the last arena. its a risk-reward strategy.

"There has likewise been discussion elsewhere about problems with griefers refusing to get on an elevator because they want to wait for an arena. They do this also because arenas offer far greater drops than other levels at the same depth."

they are not griefers, they are people who play the game wishing to get a higher risk/reward. which is fair enough, if you don't to follow, then GTFO, if they dont want to follow, kick them. In all my play I have yet to have a single problem with people looping arenas, because either this is what i want to do, or if i explain that i am in a rush and would like to go onto the next level fast, they say "ok" and leave to go solo.

"See the common thread? The underlying problem is that arenas offer rewards way out of line with other maps. Looping arenas and people refusing to get onto elevators are problems that need to be addressed. But the underlying cause is that arenas drop too much loot."

Because they are much more challenging than other maps. Look at it this way - the treasure vault is the easyest map in the game, and drops little loot, The graveyard drops higher amounts of loot because it is a lot harder in comparason.

"Now, I realize that there is supposed to be a risk/reward proposition here. The problem is that even if you skip the risk and end the level after two arenas, you still get far greater rewards than all but a handful of other levels in the game."

Yes, but you have to imagine it as a scale, the harder the level the more loot your gonna get, so of course there are gonna be levels in which you get less loot or more loot.

"The solution is to reduce arena maps from three arenas to two by deleting the second arena. That way, if you do one arena and then bail out, you still get drops roughly in line with other levels, or perhaps a little lighter. If you do both arenas, you'd still get huge drops for the level, about in line with a clockwork tunnels+danger room, and the highest in the game if you don't count boss tokens. So why delete the second arena? Because it's the easiest one. The third arena needs to stay, as the justification for extra drops is the extra risk. If you wanted to delete the first arena instead of the second, I'd be fine with that, too."

No. What if you don't want to do the 3rd arena? The difficulty curve between the second and the third arena is very steep, imagine how great it would be from the first to the 3rd? change the difficulty of the level and the system becomes even easier to farm. at least this way with the 3 zones there's still a high chance of failure. if anything I reckon they should increase the difficulty of the second zone. also, you know why its the highest dropping loot wise? because its the hardest. *facepalm* the arenas are fine. can all the 12 year old girly boys please stop complaining about it, there is NO problem, and you should just DEAL WITH IT yourself by going solo, or kicking the person.

Besides in there right mind, who doesn't want more loot?. if you don't want more loot, then don't go on the gate which is full of arenas. /solution to all your little problems.

Sat, 09/03/2011 - 07:23
#2
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
I have to agree with tauburn.

I have to agree with tauburn. Arenas could be more balanced, but the general method should stay unchanged.

Sat, 09/03/2011 - 11:38
#3
Quasirandom's picture
Quasirandom
"That is because the arenas

"That is because the arenas are a lot more challenging that other levels - especially the last arena."

Do people loop Dark City levels endlessly? How about Devilish Drudgery? Those are harder, but don't give the corresponding rewards. Many people mostly avoid the levels if they can. How about a danger room in a poison-themed clockwork tunnels level? That's much harder, and does give good rewards, but most people skip it in fourth stratum or later, precisely because it is so hard.

"Because they are much more challenging than other maps."

Except without the challenge. A full arena is much easier than a clockwork tunnels level with a danger room, yet gives far more loot. A full arena is easier than any of the Dark City levels, yet gives easily triple the loot. It's arguably easier than a Devilish Drudgery level, but again, gives easily triple the loot.

And that's if you actually do the third arena. If you do two arenas and then leave, then arena levels are relatively easy. And they still give more loot than nearly anything else in the game, with only the exception of a clockwork tunnels level with a danger room and a couple levels from FSC. That's not a risk/reward proposition. That's a high reward, low risk combination. That's way out of line with everything else in the game, and that's why it needs to be nerfed.

Yesterday I did a full arena level solo in tier 3 without getting hit. I don't think I've ever done that in a Dark City level. I've never come remotely close to clearing a tier 3 toxigel danger room without getting hit. Clearing it at all without energy revives is doing pretty good.

"they are people who play the game wishing to get a higher risk/reward."

They are seeking larger rewards, but not greater risk.

"Look at it this way - the treasure vault is the easyest map in the game, and drops little loot, The graveyard drops higher amounts of loot because it is a lot harder in comparason."

And yet treasure vaults and graveyards both give loot comparable to most other levels. Don't ignore the sparks that you get in treasure vaults when tallying your loot. You can argue that harder levels should give more loot, but to argue that they invariably already do betrays being unfamiliar with the game.

"Yes, but you have to imagine it as a scale, the harder the level the more loot your gonna get, so of course there are gonna be levels in which you get less loot or more loot."

Except that there shouldn't be fairly easy levels where you get huge amounts of loot. Which there is, if you stop after two arenas. And that's what I want changed.

"The difficulty curve between the second and the third arena is very steep, imagine how great it would be from the first to the 3rd?"

It's a much shallower jump than from a typical clockwork tunnels level to a danger room in it. Is it really so wrong if the harder portions are, you know, actually harder?

"Besides in there right mind, who doesn't want more loot?"

Why not double the crowns for all other levels in the game, then, to bring then a little more in line with arenas? The answer is pretty obvious: hyperinflation.

"Arenas could be more balanced, but the general method should stay unchanged."

I'm proposing balancing them. tauburn is proposing keeping their rewards far higher than anything else in the game, without corresponding difficulty. If you want them balanced, then you agree with me, but you assert that you agree with him.

The basic structure of arenas should stay the same: you do an easier part, and then have the option of whether you also want to do a harder part. What I'm proposing is that the loot you get should be in line with other levels if you do only the easier part, and among the greatest in the game if you also do the harder part.

-----

This is basically a rerun of jelly palace drops getting nerfed. It was way out of line with everything else except arenas at comparable depths, so people were farming it endlessly. It's bad game design to encourage players to do that, so Three Rings nerfed the drops. They should do the same for arenas, and for the same reasons.

And there will be people who oppose balancing arenas for the same reason that people opposed balancing Jelly Palace. If you're exploiting some game mechanics that shouldn't be there in the first place, of course you're not going to want to give that up. But it needs to be done for the good of the game.

Sat, 09/03/2011 - 11:54
#4
Ageatii's picture
Ageatii
Spiral Knights!

I've always found part 2 of the Battle Arena to be much easier than part 1.

Sat, 09/03/2011 - 12:36
#5
Akarinmimiz
2nd arena room needs a

2nd arena room needs a difficulty buff at least, because for some reason it always ends up being easier than the first room and then it's a huge difficulty spike for the 3rd room that throws a lot more enemies at you and has the spikes. I must admit that I would never opt to leave an arena stage after the first room because, well, if you can do the first room reasonably well then you could almost do the 2nd room in your sleep.

I would prefer to keep the 3 room setup because I like smashing my way through so many enemies. I wouldn't even mind a loot nerf as long as running an arena is still more profitable than other levels sans danger rooms.

Sat, 09/03/2011 - 14:20
#6
Quasirandom's picture
Quasirandom
The reason that arenas give

The reason that arenas give so much loot is that there are so many mobs. That's the same reason that Firestorm Citadel gives so much loot, and that Jelly Palace used to. I think it would be better to make it so that there are fewer mobs than to take the Jelly Palace approach of making mobs not drop so much.

Deleting the second arena entirely is, I think, the cleanest way to do this. You could also make it one wave fewer per arena, though that would still leave payouts on the high side if you do two arenas and stop.

Even if arenas were much harder than anything else (which they certainly aren't), 3k crown payouts are still a problem. The reason is tier 1. You still get around 2k payouts in second stratum, and there it's completely trivial because you're fighting tier 1 mobs. The game shouldn't create incentives for players in five star gear to loop tier 1 levels endlessly, like it does now.

Delete the second arena and ~2k payouts in sixth stratum become perhaps 1.4k in second stratum. Since you're giving up materials by doing tier 1, that's not so out of line with what you can get in a random sixth stratum level.

Sat, 09/03/2011 - 16:46
#7
Quasirandom's picture
Quasirandom
Some people have said they

Some people have said they want a crown sink to bring down CE prices. You know what else would work just as well? Not flooding the system with so many crowns, as a result of nerfing arena payouts.

Sat, 09/03/2011 - 17:17
#8
darkmaster75
Legacy Username
Wait?

so you want everyone, including your self, to get less money from arenas? i dont why people have a problem with waiting for an arena cuz nearly everyone i play with wants to wait for one, even when they are about to go on the elevator and remind them last minute. And i find arenas difficult, especially ones with alpha wolvers, so they should give more payout than others. Also in devilish drugerys and concrete jungle and dark city levels they place treasure boxes throughout the level, so instead of nerfing arenas, they should give more treasure boxes in those levels mentioned before for their increased difficulty.

Sat, 09/03/2011 - 19:11
#9
Milkman's picture
Milkman
I agree with the problem you

I agree with the problem you have identified Quizzical. Essentially instead of mindlessly repeating the Jelly Palace we are now doing the same with arenas, which isn't very fun. Whilst I much prefer this solution to your other one, I do feel it is a little extreme. 3 is a nice number. It gives that sense of accomplishment after you have finished all three arenas.

Anyway, what I propose is swap around arenas 1 and 2. Make the first arena pretty easy, easier than the current 2nd arena. Then make the second arena the current difficulty of the current third arena. Make the third arena the difficulty of a typical danger room. Keep the total loot the same as a current arena. In essence, instead of reducing loot, increase the difficulty of the levels.

Secondly, remove the treasure boxes after the first arena. You should not be getting 'treasure' for doing the mandatory part of the level.

Sat, 09/03/2011 - 20:40
#10
Quasirandom's picture
Quasirandom
"so you want everyone,

"so you want everyone, including your self, to get less money from arenas?"

What do you think would happen if we doubled the crowns that everything paid out? Would it be, oh hey, we're all rich now? Or would it simply make everything cost twice as much to buy as before? Other than recipe prices as Basil, numbers of crowns are mostly a nominal thing. If fewer crowns get paid out from arenas, then the prices of everything from CE to materials on the auction house would tend to fall as a result.

"And i find arenas difficult, especially ones with alpha wolvers, so they should give more payout than others."

And what I'm proposing would give more payout than most other levels, if you do the whole thing. It would still be around double the payout of typical other levels, and in line with doing a clockwork tunnels level with a danger room. It just wouldn't be so ridiculously out of line with the payout of everything else the way it is now.

"so instead of nerfing arenas, they should give more treasure boxes in those levels mentioned before for their increased difficulty."

The problem is that to bring everything else into line with arenas, you'd have to at least double the payout of most other levels, and often triple or quadruple it. Arenas are the one glaring outlier. It's much cleaner to nerf one level than to greatly increase the payout of just about everything else in the game. It would also avoid the shock of seeing CE prices rise to 15k or so, because 15k then would be worth about the same as 6.5k now. That sort of intentional hyperinflation to wipe out the value of crowns that players have accumulated is a bad idea.

"Make the third arena the difficulty of a typical danger room."

I get that you mean make the third arena much harder. But there isn't any "typical" danger room difficulty. Toxigel danger rooms are tremendously difficult in tier 3. Quicksilver danger rooms are easy. Ice cube and oiler danger rooms can be easy or hard, depending on what gear you come with.

"Keep the total loot the same as a current arena. In essence, instead of reducing loot, increase the difficulty of the levels."

I had thought of that, but I don't think it's workable. Even if you can make tier 3 arenas crazy hard to finish, the problem is tier 1. There, all the mobs get heavily nerfed down so that they barely do anything if they hit you. People would still loop tier 1 arenas in five star gear and get huge payouts for cupcake levels, so that wouldn't fix the problem.

Now, if you made it so that the new third arena could only be attempted in tier 3, that would fix the problem. It's a rather inelegant solution, however, as it would make level design dependent on the tier. No other levels in the game do that.

Sat, 09/03/2011 - 23:58
#11
Romasanta's picture
Romasanta
Statement

If there is something to be profited from, people will do it, and the more profitable it is, the more it will be done. If this is applied to spiral Knights, it means that players will run the levels that pay the most crowns until they get sick of them, and then do them some more. No matter what you do, players will find the highest-paying thing out there and try to profit from it. Nerf arenas and you'll get a lot of player outrage, followed by payers going and farming FSC, Jelly Palace, and oh, I don't know.... Jelly Farms, or something. Players will loop them over and over. Then you'll want to suggest that FSC get a loot nerf.

You can't stop this problem. They will do it, because it pays, which happens because those levels have lots of monsters in them. If they reduce the number of monsters, the toughness of monsters will have to be increased, to keep game balance, which might make the game less fun.

This is not a serious problem, and it cannot be solved without making a whole lot of players very very angry.

Sun, 09/04/2011 - 01:23
#12
Quasirandom's picture
Quasirandom
"Nerf arenas and you'll get a

"Nerf arenas and you'll get a lot of player outrage, followed by payers going and farming FSC, Jelly Palace, and oh, I don't know.... Jelly Farms, or something."

Well yes, there's always outrage when game exploits are fixed. But the game is better off for fixing them. A little short-lived outrage from people who will quickly move on to finding the next thing to exploit is not a big deal.

To some degree, you're right that players will pick a different level to farm endlessly. But the game's materials system already balances that out somewhat. For example, if players decided that Sinful Steps II was now the most profitable level and looped it endlessly, then the game would be flooded with drops from devilites and kats. Materials that are now valuable would become basically worthless. That would make Sinful Steps II far less profitable than before. If it wasn't the highest payout level by very much before, then soon it wouldn't be the highest payout level at all.

There are (at least) three reasons why arenas can't get balanced that way. One is that there is a huge variety of mobs in arenas, so that there are a huge variety of drops. The second is that the crown drops are so huge that even with no materials at all, they'd still give rewards out of line with everything else in the game.

The third is that items becoming worthless does happen to a considerable degree; look at the drop table on mecha knights, which are the main arena mobs. Five star items dropped by mecha knights are still valuable, but those only drop in tier 3. Heavy gears have some value, and swordstones a little, but other than that, it's a long list of items that are basically worthless as compared to other drops of the same star rating. And even the aforementioned heavy gears are probably less valuable than an average four star material.

"This is not a serious problem, and it cannot be solved without making a whole lot of players very very angry."

You're basically asserting that balancing loot isn't a serious problem. Game designers who take that view tend to design awful games as a result.

Sun, 09/04/2011 - 01:44
#13
Akarinmimiz
I think it would be better to

I think it would be better to make it so that there are fewer mobs than to take the Jelly Palace approach of making mobs not drop so much.

But I like there being so many enemies. Hell, if anything I'd argue to increase the numbers (mainly in the first two rooms). Part of what defines the arenas is wandering into small rooms and fighting off waves of mobs. I think you'd be diluting that experience by reducing the numbers you fight.

That's why, if anything, I would prefer a loot nerf that didn't have anything to do with mob numbers. It seems silly to remove gameplay content to address this issue when you have another perfectly viable option that keeps all that content relatively intact.

Sun, 09/04/2011 - 03:25
#14
Tauburnasaurus
Alternative solution: Keep

Alternative solution:

Keep everything the same, perhaps buff the difficulty of the 2nd arena, and then remove all crown drops from enemies. At the end of completing the arena there is a bounty of crowns - this way you can limit the number of crowns specifically to a set amount, and it stops people who fail the arena not getting crowns for a job half done.

Everybody's happy this way? Yis?

Sun, 09/04/2011 - 03:59
#15
Rage-Knight's picture
Rage-Knight
Arenas are the most fun in

Arenas are the most fun in this game. Removing arenas = removing fun. No fun - no reason to play this crapso.

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