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Should enemies killed with a sword drop better stuff than those killed with guns?

26 replies [Last post]
Thu, 10/28/2010 - 14:26
Cire_Arodum
Legacy Username

(and maybe bombs?)

Okay, so something that has been bothering me is how much the game encourages use of guns. Guns are just better. They are much less risky to use, and make your enemies just as dead. For the most part enemies aren't good at avoiding your shots.

Pretty much whenever there is a dangerous situation, it's better to keep your distance and shoot at it. Or better yet, heard the enemies behind a half wall so you can shoot them without worrying about their projectiles hitting you.

So what is your motivation to use a sword? Time. You are able to kill things quicker. There's no time limit though, so your best encouragement to use them is being bored shooting guns. That's not very awesome.

Basic risk vs reward tells us that swords should give bigger rewards because they're riskier to use. Giving swords a power boost or guns a power nerf will not change that saving time is your encouragement to use a sword, and will not solve the problem. You could make guns harder to use, but that will likely just be frustrating.

A possible solution I see, is to make it so enemies killed with swords are more likely to drop better items.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 14:58
#1
Shroom
Legacy Username
I think that would feel more

I think that would feel more like an artificial solution. If swords, guns, or bombs are overpowered or underpowered, they just need to be rebalanced.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 15:09
#2
Cire_Arodum
Legacy Username
I disagree that it would have

I disagree that it would have to seem artificial. I was going to include this in the OP but didn't bother.

The easy in-game explanation is that what you shoot up, or blow up something, you're more likely to damage whatever they were carrying than if you stab them. Here's some precedent too. In Zelda if you freeze and enemy with your boomerang before you kill them, they will only drop 1 green rupee. Less risk -> less reward.

How would you rebalance the guns that don't make them unfun, and solve the core problem?

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 15:23
#3
Mesona
Legacy Username
I think that feels like an

I think that feels like an artificial solution as well, especially since I can't actually imagine a gun being LESS destructive than a sword. A cool idea, however, would be that certain enemies would only drop certain items when killed in certain ways. For example, some lava enemy killed with an ice weapon would have a chance of dropping obsidian, but wouldn't have a chance of dropping it if killed with a non-ice attack.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 15:33
#4
Pauling's picture
Pauling
Hammer your plowshares into swords, or, Down with Hedge Mazes!

How to balance? I'd start with map design: don't include so many half-walls that you can hide behind. (there's a level with 4 switchable gates which is especially open to the sort of abuse described) Or at very least, teach enemies to operate the switches that are being used to herd them.

Then, look at your enemies: can they get to you before you kill them with a gun? I don't think I've *ever* been damaged by a lumber or a redward, simply because I can slaughter them long before they reach me. They're just far too easy to outrun. Plus, my guns inflict major status ailments (fire, shock, and freeze) that swords can't match.

Gremlins, though, demand high damage output (to kill healers fast), and given how quickly they can reach you, guns are only able to get off a few piddly shots before the gremlins are on you. If you're using a weapon with freezing status effects, it's possible to do slow the gremlins down long enough for the kill- otherwise, swords are a more attractive option for these hard-to-hit, fast-moving enemies.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 17:17
#5
Kharnor
Legacy Username
Sword your guns into hammers

A few ideas that would help:
1) better A.I. including the ability to dodge/block your shots and lead their shots (they shoot where you are going, not where you are; makes kiting/strafing and shooting much less easy)
2) special abilities for swords, such as attacks that make you charge rapidly at your opponent to close the gap
3) make enemy ranged attacks not get stopped by anything the player can shoot over
4) special enemies that are hard to damage with guns; perhaps they reflect the majority of ranged attacks back at the player
5) more enemies with clever designs like the spookats, who are simply easier to kill with swords than with guns.

Fri, 10/29/2010 - 02:26
#6
Shroom
Legacy Username
Maybe the lumbers could get

Maybe the lumbers could get some way to deflect shots back. Not all the shots. Just enough to make it a little harder on you.

Mon, 11/01/2010 - 13:12
#7
fugli
Legacy Username
While I agree that guns =

While I agree that guns = *easymode* right now, there are a spectum of enemies and with some ability to pick your targets, it makes it easy to play to your strengths.

As it stands (at least IMHO): zombies, and lumber are pushovers for gun users. Kats and wolves are moderate difficulty due to their juking speed/teleports and gremilins are major PITA and are better sword targets (force them into the corner and keep them down). I leave out jellies, lichens and chroma since they really are easy either way you do it, and gun puppies cause often they neccesitate gun use.

That said, I avoid known gremlin levels for the PITA factor, because even though they are better with swords, they all around annoy me.

So I guess my points are a) different blows for different foes and b) as said upthread, they will re-balance these things (i personally think my cryotech alch mk1 is a bit op)

Mon, 11/01/2010 - 13:21
#8
Cherub's picture
Cherub
Developer
Should enemies killed with a sword drop better stuff...

*Slide-Whistle*

Nope.

Mon, 11/01/2010 - 20:34
#9
Tributary
Legacy Username
I love my swords. I really

I love my swords. I really do. But they are most efficient in a situation where I have gun wielders standing behind me and I'm using knockback to help make their jobs easier. I'm batting enemies in a direction to help my gun bunnies shoot them to death (and doing massive damage in the process). Of course, I need more health and better armor, because I am essentially tanking.

Fri, 11/05/2010 - 06:11
#10
Cien_Tao
Legacy Username
Some ideas are good, but could be improved

Well, a better A.I. to dodge would be better, but also monsters that are ranged proof, a bullet system (i dislike the system, but i just felt to suggest it anyway), or even thing like some monsters range attacks being really strong, but they only using it if they cannot reach the target would be good. Also, a good pathfioinding A.I., to pass obstacles would be good too.

Fri, 11/05/2010 - 07:01
#11
Kharnor
Legacy Username
By "bullet system" I assume

By "bullet system" I assume you mean limited ammunition. I don't see this happening.

Fri, 11/05/2010 - 07:43
#12
Benamas
Legacy Username
i think he means bullet

i think he means bullet system as in relatively slow-travelling visible projectiles versus instant hitscan shots

Fri, 11/05/2010 - 13:34
#13
Cien_Tao
Legacy Username
no no, khanor is right

I really wanted to say a limitted amunition system, something like, 1 crown for every 10 bullets, but, as i said, i just felt like suggesting. I'm really not a fan of ammunition...it's anoying.

Fri, 11/05/2010 - 13:51
#14
not_shiro
Legacy Username
RO this, RO that - it's really annoying to hear from me, innit?

If I want to bankrupt myself with my gunplay, I'll go flip coins on RO. :P

Fri, 11/05/2010 - 13:54
#15
Mesona
Legacy Username
If I wanted to bankrupt

If I wanted to bankrupt myself with gameplay, I'd go play a merchant in RO.

Sun, 11/07/2010 - 20:53
#16
Cien_Tao
Legacy Username
Wow, that's new for me

I actually thought that merch was the best clas to get money...but, alright, never played ith a merch anyways...and, yes, it would probably be a bankrupter, considering that no ammo would be dropped from enemies...but, as i said, i just felt like suggesting..i really dislikes an ammo system (actually, couldn't play a single game more than a week as a ranged class that requires ammo).

Sun, 11/07/2010 - 23:31
#17
Mesona
Legacy Username
It is the best class for

It is the best class for making money, but it also has varying levels of coin toss abilities, in which you literally throw your money at enemies. At the time I was playing there wasn't a cap, and there might still not be, but if you had enough money you could one shot bosses.

Mon, 11/08/2010 - 07:51
#18
Cien_Tao
Legacy Username
Oooooook....fear the merchs now

...I imagine me now useless with my assassin being killed so many times by that damn Archangeling.........

Tue, 02/22/2011 - 18:05
#19
Autofire's picture
Autofire
Maybe higher level lumbers

Maybe higher level lumbers should ignore shot damage sometimes, and eventually ignore ALL shot damage altogether.

Tue, 02/22/2011 - 18:44
#20
Cromendi
Can we not necro something

Can we not necro something that's about 10 or so patches ago....?

Also why should enemy be able to become invincible to gun damage?

Tue, 02/22/2011 - 21:14
#21
Autofire's picture
Autofire
To make it harder to kill.

When a slow, strong enemy gives you the chase, you can just run and shot. This makes VERY strong enemies nothing more than a boring pushover.

Tue, 02/22/2011 - 21:16
#22
Cromendi
So you idea for balancing is

So you idea for balancing is to force people run up to a turtle drone and play footsies with it?

Tue, 02/22/2011 - 21:22
#23
Shoebox's picture
Shoebox
I always found it kinda dumb

I always found it kinda dumb how a Tortodrone couldn't just withdraw inside it's own shell to shield itself from attacks.

I mean, I thought they were meant to be pacifists not dormant psychopaths.

Tue, 02/22/2011 - 21:30
#24
Cromendi
TURTLE SMAAAAASHHHH! Pretty

TURTLE SMAAAAASHHHH!

Pretty sure that's what the devs had in mind when they made that lil bundle of joy.

Wed, 02/23/2011 - 19:54
#25
S1R_L33T4L0T
Legacy Username
Some monsters, instead of

Some monsters, instead of walking directly toward the player, should spread out around the player, surrounding them. Swords work better when you’re surrounded than guns do, because swords do knockback, thus breaking you out of the surround.

The solution is better enemy AI, and enemies that work together as a group to surround the player.

Wed, 02/23/2011 - 23:38
#26
Shoebox's picture
Shoebox
Don't hate the player, hate the player hater.

Players aren't set to a standard benchmark.

When they make monsters, they have to make sure that it's possible for everybody to beat them, regardless of the items they're using.
Because that's the thing that they've done with their level design.

It was, undoubtedly, a mistake to make all weapons equal in that sense.
Because range is the most powerful advantage of all.

The only way they could ever change this is to set players to a benchmark, it is literally, the only way they can remedy how powerful guns are.
Because that's the only way they could ever make sure that if a monster is immune to one kind of attack, that a player would be able to beat them with another.

That's is the simplest way I can put it.

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