The current state of Guns.
Wed, 04/06/2011 - 19:53
So, after playing around with various weapons a bit, I've noticed that there seems to be a large discrepancy between the damage output of Guns vs Swords/Bombs.
I'm not talking about a small or even moderate amount either, the difference is like night and day. ~10 damage per hit with zero star gun vs 20 damage per hit for zero star sword, so about double at tier zero. Then at tier two of Alchemer vs Calibur, its ~20 vs 60 per hit, nevermind that the swords in both cases have a faster attack rate so the DPS (Damager per second) difference is larger than it seems at first glance. Sword is now over triple that of equal gun level, and I honestly can't see it getting much better unless someone who's reached the higher gear levels can vouch for it.
Now I do understand that there are advantages to staying at range (i.e. it's safer), so it is expected that the higher reward would go to the sword user for taking a higher risk, but I really cannot see why there is such a gaping difference in damage.
I'd also like to point out that guns already have some large disadvantages already, even when you ignore their damage output.
- There are many enemies (like wolves, gremlins and imps) that will matrix dodge a large number of your bullets. I've even seen some gremlins matrix dodge a bullet by sliding across the floor after they were knocked down, although that could just be lag. This further compounds their already low damage potential.
- Some guns require you to be stationary while firing. Huge disadvantage in a game like this.
- You move slower when building/holding a charge with a gun vs a sword/bomb.
- Completing your attack chain with a sword gives you a high chance of interrupt/knockback of enemies (benefit). Completing your attack chain with a gun puts you in a "reload" animation that slows your movement for 1.5 seconds (penalty) and disables use of block/items for the duration of the animation (penalty). I've had to get used to shooting max shots - 1 and letting the counter reset just so I can avoid the "reload" animation.
So, I guess the point of this post is, is the current place of guns where you want it to be or not. Do you even realise the huge discrepancy between other weapons vs guns? With such a large damage difference how do you intend on being able to balance the health of monsters for both sword AND guns without making one overpowered and the other underpowered?
Some suggestions (Using same tier swords as a basis for balancing):
- Make guns usable in the shield slot. Dual pistols for higher damage but you lose ability to block and any defensive benefits the shield had. Target DPS with this would be ~100-120% of same tier sword to counter the large loss of defensive stats and that there are many mobs who dodge bullets. Possibly requires large code changes so more expensive to implement.
- OR -
- Keep it as it currently is but increase the damage for guns across the board. Target DPS would be ~70-80% of same tier sword.
- OR -
- Replace the normal shots of guns with their "charged" attack. This would add make guns more interesting and offer unique advantages based on the type of gun used. Target DPS when used in ideal situations would be ~100-120% of same tier sword, but when used in non-ideal situations ~70-80%.
tl;dr - Guns are currently underperforming vs other weapons. I think guns need to be rebalanced or changed.
Wed, 04/06/2011 - 20:23
#2
I like guns...
Another suggestion would be to make wolvers and devilites not fling themselves about like they're the Flash every time something ranged comes their way - at the very least, implement a cooldown on those abilities. It's almost insulting to make them weak to Piercing damage then auto-avoid the weapon type that provides almost all of it.
Wed, 04/06/2011 - 23:59
#3
Nope
Thing is, you missed the beta. Guns dealt pretty much the same damage as swords back then.
What happened? Nobody used swords. Why fight enemies from places where you can get hurt, if guns are the same but ranged, and also deal status effects?
And then, guns got nerfed, the end.
Same thing happened with the fire vaporizers.
Thu, 04/07/2011 - 00:06
#4
A lot of guns deal statuses,
A lot of guns deal statuses, far more common than swords do. Something else to keep in mind. Alchemers also bounce around and have small splash damage. I use guns almost exclusively and I don't mind doing less damage on hit.
Would I like more damage? Sure, but so would everybody else with whatever weapons they prefer ;o
Thu, 04/07/2011 - 05:05
#5
Thing is, you missed the
- Thing is, you missed the beta. Guns dealt pretty much the same damage as swords back then.
What happened? Nobody used swords. Why fight enemies from places where you can get hurt, if guns are the same but ranged, and also deal status effects?
-
And then, guns got nerfed, the end.
Same thing happened with the fire vaporizers.
- A lot of guns deal statuses, far more common than swords do. Something else to keep in mind. Alchemers also bounce around and have small splash damage. I use guns almost exclusively and I don't mind doing less damage on hit.
Would I like more damage? Sure, but so would everybody else with whatever weapons they prefer ;o
All guns have a tiny amount of splash damage afaik, it's just very tiny. Swords also do splash damage and do so in a larger arc than guns. so I'm not really seeing your point with guns dong splash when swords are already superior in this regard. The Alchemer bounce requires charging anyway which takes time and makes you more vulnerable than charging with non-guns and damage-wise, you would've done more damage just doing normal shots in the same time it took to charge up. As for status effects, isn't a bomb better at applying those, whilst doing higher damage and having superior AoE?
Thu, 04/07/2011 - 06:03
#6
Want to really make guns fun
Want to really make guns fun to play again? Just make bullets move faster, ffs. That's my biggest complaint.
Thu, 04/07/2011 - 08:04
#7
Higher level Alchemer
Higher level Alchemer DON'T EVEN NEED CHARGING TO BOUNCE, just saying. I saw some bounce without even being charged. Can't fully confirm that but yeah it does bounce without a charge atk
Thu, 04/07/2011 - 08:52
#8
I think the weapon system is
I think the weapon system is actually quite balanced at the moment. My best runs are composed of a heavy sword user (me), a sword/bomb user, and two sword/gunners, each of whom know how to play their build effectively.
Thu, 04/07/2011 - 09:04
#9
Hey
Back then, Nobody used Swords (according to you but I doubt that's literal). Right now, nobody is using Guns because it takes literally 10 times longer to kill things, even longer if it's a dodge enemy.
Guns are useful now. We had some posts about the game being "gun only" back then.
Maybe I should also mentioned that alchemers had 3 shots before reloading, and you could avoid reloading by charging the gun a little at the 3rd shot.
Then antiguas started dropping, and they dealt a lot of damage and had double their current range.
My suggestion to make guns better is in another post somewhere. To make the damage higher depending on how much the bullet travels, so if you take the risk of getting closer, you hit harder.
Thu, 04/07/2011 - 09:16
#10
Guns are seriously OP
I can solo pretty much any fight at any tier with a gun. It might take a while, but it's extremely easy and you will never take a single point of damage. Swords do more damage, sure, but by using a sword it's actually possible to lose the game. The difference between the weapons is the balance between easy - but slow, and hard - but faster.
Also bombs are useless, why would you use them?
Thu, 04/07/2011 - 09:33
#11
"Also bombs are useless, why
"Also bombs are useless, why would you use them?"
This is news to me, I can think of many times bombs were the only thing that got me through a danger room or arena alive. Just saying.
Thu, 04/07/2011 - 09:33
#12
Bombs are far from useless.
Bombs are far from useless. I don't use them myself but i feel a hell of a lot better about t3 runs when theres someone in the party who has a nice bomb. At high levels theyre basically an unlimited Super Vial of your choosing.
Thu, 04/07/2011 - 18:39
#13
What with the guns?
AGREEING 100%! I arm myself with a gun for 2 reasons:
1-fight from a distance
2-hit the switches
Gun reason 2 is fine in itself. Gun reason 1: WHAT THE HECK!? I get killed more using a gun than a sword. There are 3 things to do with the guns:
1-make it so that you can move and reload at the same time.
2-up damage of guns
3-make it have a better distance or ROF.
I said what i said.
Thu, 04/07/2011 - 19:50
#14
Answers to some of your
Answers to some of your points.
1. You can do that with some guns. Alchimers can do this.
2. Could be done, but let's supposed this. If guns had 80% of the sword's power and gun users would only miss out on 20% more damage, you're no doubt safer. If you're a sword man like me, risk = reward, and if this was the case, the rewards aren't going to be enough to justify the risk of being face to face with a monster.
3. Better distance? Guns have the most distance in the game. Magnus has great range and damage.
Now bombs are definitely not useless at all.
Sure they're charge only and their DPS isn't that great compared to swords, but they have a variety of uses not found in swords and guns.
First off, they can be used to inflict multiple enemies with a status ailment. (Haze Bomb to a Vaporizer bomb to a Vaporizer MKII to an Atomizer to the 5* version) no Guns and only two swords (vile striker and dread venom striker) can inflict poison. Only 5 guns (4 of them being the Cryotech series, and the other being Frost Gun) and one sword (iceburst brandish) can freeze.
The downside is that there isn't an electric vaporizer, but there is the Ionized Salt Bomb, which can shock.
They can be spammed easily if you have the proper gear. For me, my Super Blast Bomb level 8 charges pretty fast considering I'm using Ash Tail set.
Oh oh oh. Here's one thing you'll never find in another weapon.
Being able to suck up enemies in a mini black hole, then spitting them back out.
Yes, that is the Graviton Bomb and it's 5* version, the Graviton Vortex.
It's usefulness is not in its damage, but in its ability to hold enemies in one spot while you run away or you and your friends surround the cluster on all sides slashing at it.
Fri, 04/08/2011 - 06:14
#15
Hmm
I guess bombs must be pretty awesome when you're running in groups, didn't really think of it since I just play solo 99% of the time
Fri, 04/08/2011 - 07:51
#16
I do like the suggestion of
I do like the suggestion of replacing your shield, with a side arm. That is cool. I am pretty confident dodging foes already. So instead of me carrying a sword and a gun and shield. I can carry sword, gun, and bomb! =)
Fri, 04/08/2011 - 08:16
#17
Guns are fine where they are.
Guns are fine where they are. Sure swords deal 3x the damage, but on enemies that don't die to one combo, you are vastly more likely to take a hit than using a gun. As a matter of fact, I run around using swords till I drop to one bar, then just use guns till I have my health back, other than arenas/danger rooms this means I'll never die. The safety of using a gun far outweighs the slow down.
TLDR;
Sword = fast and dangerous
Gun = slow but invincible.
balanced
I agree, I normal like playing range characters but In spiral knights I have noticed its to underpowered and I rarely bother using guns. I use them only in certain situations where there more beneficial then the sword. In most combat the sword is more effective. I would like to use guns as a main weapon.