SO, this game's main dynamic appears to be the leveling of equipment.
Which is fine and dandy, obviously by the games continued existence.
but what ever happened to the idea of leveling our characters?
it would be nice and beneficial to further leveling given that switching my armor wouldn't mean reducing myself back to equivocally a level 1 every time I started a new suit.
May level up when equipment levels? or gain experience when a weapon lvls based on the # of stars of the weapon?.
heck no i love how character have no level there is less of a grindfest lowering your defenses is an acceptable term for it its all about skill anyway
lol so just becuase you don't level your body it seperates itself from every other game?
lol sorry no. any shooting game where you get better guns...
better swords...
there are plenty of other games that mimic this ...no, there are plenty of games THIS game mimics. it just looks different really.
and im not saying give your players the old str, wsd, crsm.
Maybe weapon affinities you build up by doing.
Im talking about intrinsic bonuses that come about from you're character learning from your doing. not mashing points.
and Im running this idea through here before suggestions so I can flesh it out a bit more
The game is pretty good and simple as of now, let's leave it that way.
That's the beauty of it. You can go back and make T1 challenging again if you want to. You can challenge yourself and use weaker gear on tougher levels. You can even do something like use a weak shield and have everything else good to make unique challenges. Even if you don't do that, having 5* stuff is basically like being max level. With equipment like this you can be pretty much any strenth or weakness you want.
bah, seriously? you're telling me you wouldn't like a boost to your weapons? just because you favor them?
thats like saying, no Ill keep my hamburger, and everyone else's hamburger, plain.
I think it could be a very simple dynamic that could add a nice touch.
heck toss it onto the inspect. a different shade for different weapon types? different hues for different combos?
the classes already exsist whether we name them or not. might as well play them up right?
lol sorry no. any shooting game where you get better guns...
...is completely different from Spiral Knights.
I think you might need to tweak your perspective there buddy.
you roll out with your 4* gun and you craft it up to a 5*. you just upgraded.
the same way one might move up in caliber.
changing the length of a blade. same philosophy.
so...not sure how its COMPLETELY different...
when you pull away the art, and get down to the concepts, most games are the same.
game play is what separates them.
to put it into another context. spiral knights is just another top down shooter with upgrades. the thing that pushes it from that genre to rpgs is that when you get a "power up" (a new equipment) you get to keep it till you find something better.
but by all means, if Im missing something, please, with all haste, do explain!
For one you're comparing a third-person fantasy RPG to first/third-person shooters is one thing. Typically moving up the line in those revolves around using whole new weapon systems. At least in SK you only get an upgraded version capable of more, not a whole new experience.
look again friend
you're referencing particulars, and not genres.
like I said, the concept is a straight forward, take weapon, use it, get better weapon, use instead.
however thats not the point Im really trying to push here.
let say I enjoy swinging a sword, and you enjoy shooting a gun right?
well, don't you think that if I spent all my time swinging a sword, and you spent yours shooting, then we should be inherently more proficient at those tasks that the other? (ie, if I tried to use a gun, I would be a novice, and if you used a sword the same would be true).
logically yes.
then why shouldn't that be put into the game? the player doesn't do anything to affect it. and if they change weapons they progress that furhter. so, another way to put it would be
players start with a base *affinity* of zero for all weapons. once they start using a weapon they start increasing their *affinity* for that weapon
now a player can only be so ...affined? Xp to weapons in general. so if I go from religious sword use (100% sword affinity) to 100% gun use. I will slowly forget how to use the sword as proficiently as I had, but become more proficient with a gun. and if I use them equally then an affinity of 50:50 between the two occurs.
and likewise, all this would be behind the scenes (much like the UV dynamic, in a manner the gate system, and item drops)
so really, casually players would notice that using a single weapon alot really complements them using a single weapon alot, or that they're pretty good with all weapons, or w/e
The game is pretty good and simple as of now, let's leave it that way.
Let's just say I agree with this and leave it at that.
What's the point of leveling character in this game if I can play any other MMO?
Leave it as it is, it's great.
That your performance depends mainly on your skill, and not on how much time you've spent grinding stupid stuff, is a huge advantage to this game. Let's not throw that away for the sake of chasing players with more free time than skill. That crowd is already very heavily catered to by a lot of other games.
"but what ever happened to the idea of leveling our characters?"
If a lot of other games do something, and it's detrimental to gameplay in those other games, then mimicking it is a bad idea. The proper question to ask isn't what is traditional, but what works well for good gameplay.
"there are plenty of other games that mimic this ...no, there are plenty of games THIS game mimics. it just looks different really."
Plenty of games? Really? Name one. And make it an online game, so that the old adventure games like Zelda or Crystalis don't count.
"well, don't you think that if I spent all my time swinging a sword, and you spent yours shooting, then we should be inherently more proficient at those tasks that the other?"
If you spend many hours playing the game and don't get any better at it at all, then perhaps you're doing something wrong. I don't know about you, but I'm a lot better at this game now than I was when I first started. If you're not, then may I recommend this thread:
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/12793
"so if I go from religious sword use (100% sword affinity) to 100% gun use. I will slowly forget how to use the sword as proficiently as I had, but become more proficient with a gun. and if I use them equally then an affinity of 50:50 between the two occurs."
That basically consists of rewarding players for not learning how to play the game. That would be a horrible idea.
lvl up doesnt have to be connected with power up, i like the idea
from the games i played, its usually lvl up untill u get bored and all u can do after that is collecting money/items
but in sk, u start collecting money/items right away, thers no other growth at all
i really liked the few quests in the beginning, the achievements suck, they arent rewarding
while i dont understand, why every1 seems to be against new content, i dont really care
games can get spoiled, but one can always remove something, that spoils a game
TheTric said:
now a player can only be so ...affined? Xp to weapons in general. so if I go from religious sword use (100% sword affinity) to 100% gun use. I will slowly forget how to use the sword as proficiently as I had, but become more proficient with a gun. and if I use them equally then an affinity of 50:50 between the two occurs.
This has been used before in other games, and quite aptly too. But just because it's worked in one game doesn't mean it'll work in another. Spiral Knights is really heavy on hack and slash, and hack and slash is really heavy on player reflexes, and impairments to player reflexes like this isn't meant for hack and slash games. Don't believe me? Imagine playing a game like, say, Bayonetta like this. Imagine how fun that would be.
theTric,
you seem to want to competely change this game from what it is. You want to level up our knights and be able to create UVs unequivocally, and be able to create your own UV gems. That wouldn't even be spiral knights. That would simply be a different game.
(note: i don't fault you for playing the game and thinking "oh, it'd be cool if you could do this and you could do that." just pointing out that with two suggestions you'd have changed the entire game into a different game with spiral knight's like sprites).
Basically you are saying "there should be a WoW style game with spiral knights graphics"
That probably got reworked into the system we have today.
"That your performance depends mainly on your skill, and not on how much time you've spent grinding stupid stuff, is a huge advantage to this game. Let's not throw that away for the sake of chasing players with more free time than skill. That crowd is already very heavily catered to by a lot of other games."
Not sure what game you're playing, but I watach players grind all the time for good equips.
the only real time "Skill" comes into play is when you determine whether or not that nasty beasty can screw you up or you can stab your sword through its eye with relative ease. which isn't really skill when all you have to do is use basic logic of "am I on teir 3?" if yes, then you should probably guerilla the hell out of those beasties, or resort to fun little gimmicks like the shield slash dash and charge
If a lot of other games do something, and it's detrimental to gameplay in those other games, then mimicking it is a bad idea. The proper question to ask isn't what is traditional, but what works well for good gameplay.
No really? That had to be about as poignant as pointing out a stain on the wall. TO simply counter this argument :
If a lot of other games do something, and it's beneficial to gameplay in those other games, then mimicking it is a good idea.
and to nail it home : this game already has a leveling system, or have you not noticed those nice little numbers on your weapon grouped with the word "Level"?
moving on
"Plenty of games? Really? Name one. And make it an online game, so that the old adventure games like Zelda or Crystalis don't count."
Oh bravo! you've caught me now...oh wait, I could just name entire genres. Oops! : hack and slashers, or any other online game. the idea of leveling equipment is not a new one. and to try and hide youfself behind the "And make it an online game" is like saying I can only pick a day that isn't sunny.
the online tidbit just comes in to playing with other players really. yes yes subtle nauances. but we're getting at a gameplay mechanic here. Focus!
(oh and to satisfy your little disposition : gauntlet online. run dungeons, online, with various weapon sets. totally doesn't sound like SK at all!)
"That basically consists of rewarding players for not learning how to play the game. That would be a horrible idea"
Way to go Jr! thats like saying gays have aids. Split second and navie. But Ill humor you:
Players can make ANYTHING into gameplay "depth", or "Skill". Look at Uvs. heck look at the mere price of rose Items.
players will find anyways to make themselves better the other players. mind you that's respective to competitive gamers as well as casual ones in a bad mood XD (heck even some in good moods)
You can't make you're statement becuase it lacks a full scope. what about players that notice this and focus on weapon sets?
I think if anytime there was ever an actual skill to gaming, would be to utilizing and combining apparent and subtle mechanics of game play.
Not using a fund glitch. not bullying players.
Like a player that notices constructive resonance in stats.
As everyone will expect, thank you biggest loser. but not for supporting me really, just not for bashing me. it seems like the exclusive hornets nest plays true with SK players. (don't know what Im talkng about? look up, xobox hornets nest)
"This has been used before in other games, and quite aptly too. But just because it's worked in one game doesn't mean it'll work in another. Spiral Knights is really heavy on hack and slash, and hack and slash is really heavy on player reflexes, and impairments to player reflexes like this isn't meant for hack and slash games. Don't believe me? Imagine playing a game like, say, Bayonetta like this. Imagine how fun that would be."
Who says it won't work? after all, there are test servers, why not try it? but I think you may have missed a bit buddy. players would never really be impaired. they would only be less awesome. and that would only occur if they tried to switch to something radically different. if anything it would encourage dedication.
Think of it like this if you need to : The master swordsman using a gun will be a novice gunner. and never should there be someone who is a master of both. maybe somone who is exceptional with both, but never a master. (distribute 100% across each weapon class)
And about the UV gem system : that was an afterthought. if you read through. my main idea is a more selective, but limited punch. go ahead and re-rea that post if you really want to come at me bro.
AAAAAAAAAlrighty then.
well, that was not how I expected to spend my time. all honesty I had expected this to die. but, you responded. I returned ^_^
what's next?
>That basically consists of rewarding players for not learning how to play the game.
>thats like saying gays have aids.
I'm leaving this thread.
Levelling adds nothing of value at all to this game. It's just a grind. It makes people who grind, grind, grind away better than people who don't... even if non-grinders are ... you know... better. I fail to understand how introducing levels would somehow make this game interesting, nor can I imagine how separating players purely by how much they've grinded is a good idea.
Also.
Way to go Jr! thats like saying gays have aids.
You are a horrible person.
The main difference between Spiral Knights and a lot of MMOs is this:
If you give a level 90 character in most other MMOS, they will quickly kick ass.
If you give a newbie a full set of 5-star gear here in Spiral Knights, they will still die -- a lot (even in Tier 1). Dodging attacks, using your shield effectively, knowing when/how to attack certain mobs to do the most damage, can only come with time and actually playing the game, cause unlike a lot of other games, where there is a "dodge ability"/"shield ability"/"sword ability", you have to actually do it, and not just press a button in the approximate area.
In other words...
A veteran with proto armor would last longer (and die less) with proto-armor than a newbie with vog armor in Tier 1.
alrighty chill'ns
since we can't be mature about this.
its like saying rectangles are squares.
Some are, but not all are.
Im surprised that the amazing stick up the butt of politically correct has wedged itself so far as to reahc our joysticks (oh sweet jezus the number of inuendos)
btw, as if I really have to bother, I'm Bi, I have a bf. so by that whole nonsense I can say that and be politically correct.
well actually, if you really want to get into it the main difference is the graphics. and you're reference off mmo's is severely limited. MANY mmos have deliberate actions.
the lack of scope is astounding.
BUT, we're getting off topic. So Ill drop that wall, and hopefully we can get back to the subject of intuitive, passive leveling (to phrase it yet ANOTHER way)
i say we vote to send this to the graveyard there nothing more to discuss here
Indeed. Your arguments have convinced me that we should implement linear leveling the the game as soon as possible. A cookie to you good sir.
Okay, Im going to lay this out AGAIN.
READ THIS BEFORE YOU RESPOND!
READ THIS BEFORE YOU RESPOND!
READ THIS BEFORE YOU RESPOND!
READ THIS BEFORE YOU RESPOND!
READ THIS BEFORE YOU RESPOND!
when you would be playing, AS YOU HAVE BEEN PLAYING
there would be 3 stats that would record the frequency with which you use different classes of weapons. (Sword, Handgun, Bomb)
Then based on the ratio of these score to each other, you would receive relative boosts.
So if you use A sword 100% of the time, you would get a significant boost to sword wielding.
at the same time, you wouldn't get any bonus to guns or bombs, BUT NOR WOULD THOSE PROFICIENCY SUFFER!
you would be able to use a bomb just as well as any other individual who DIDN"T use bombs.
This does NOT mean you would level up some kind of sword skill.
more you would maintain a proficiency.
If you switched to a different weapon, your sword proficiency would gradually decrease as the new weapons proficiency increase.
This is NOT a skill you put points into
it is NOT static, it varies with every swing, every attack, heck maybe even every defense! (maybe a shield proficiency?)
This is not something you grind, it just happens. kind of like running into that cute guy or gal on the way to work, because you waited between classes.
You didn't really know it would happen, but it would make sense that it should happen.
(to make a fun reference, atomic theory says if you run at a wall a infinite number of times, at some point you should be able to either pass through entirely, or embed bits into the wall)
And I am not suggesting to instate this into the game immediately. I'm saying its worth looking into in play testing.
AND I would like to apologize to anyone and everyone who can't pull that stick out of their bums to whom I offended. backhanded, yes, still an apology.
Obviously there is some merit to the concept. Anyone can see that. but its through discussion of what needs to be refined that makes it into a good idea. Not just stating absolutes or arbitrary facts.
if I wanted to do that I could have started off listing the games in which the concept was implemented poorly. and the many existing features of spiral knights. everything would be absolute, if not relatively true. but it would not benefit spiral knights in any manner.
A good idea doesn't normally just manifest from the eather. it is refined from a concept. to make a reference to one of my other threads, just in the same fashion the gem system is obviously too complex, at this time at least, but there are some concepts that can be pulled from it)
*inhale*
READ THIS BEFORE YOU RESPOND!
READ THIS BEFORE YOU RESPOND!
READ THIS BEFORE YOU RESPOND!
READ THIS BEFORE YOU RESPOND!
READ THIS BEFORE YOU RESPOND!
seriously though this adds unnecessary complexity to an otherwise straight forward game. that aside at least 75% of the population use swords this would only widen the gap between using swords and guns/bombs
eh, i've said my piece. if ya can't be bothered to read critically, and challenge your own ideas, I'm okay with that.
and yes I've challenged my own ideas, but if started responding specifically to my own responses I would look even more insane that Im already coming across...so...gonna avoid that XD
This is a game of player ability, not character ability.
Go back to WoW kthx.
People think you're insane enough already. It wouldn't change much.
It's an interesting idea, although it might be annoying if you're farming beast levels for a period of time and can't use guns much so your gun proficiency drops, and then you need to do a lot of gunning shortly afterward. It might also make the gurus who have everything and know what to do with everything somewhat disappointed that they can't have it all, but they'd have fun playing around with the different proficiencies.
The only major issue is: it's a bit hard to do. You're challenging the developers to make something that's as random as your butchering of quantum physics (I lol'd), and if proficiency is just for a weapon class, you'd have to make the sword proficiency something different for each sword attack style (after all what makes a Cutter better won't help much if you then use a Triglav, and vice versa).
As for heat and leveling up... I haven't leveled up an item for over 4 weeks (and no, I'm not full 5*). I've been wearing the same suit for a while (boy, I love the smell of my own sweat) and can't complain about the profits. Every now and then I wish I had some other way to store heat for later, but I accept the consequences of my actions as I knew this would happen.
Did you play link's adventure? There's a reason you haven't seen an xp system in a zelda since then. This style of combat is a puzzle, not a numbers game. Identify the attack patterns, memorize the spawns, hit the enemies while losing the fewest hearts possible. The fact that there IS a 0-5 star range on equipment is already the (hopefully) only concession to this being an mmo and needing a progression based time sink, otherwise you can just look at every weapon and armor as basically parallel options you pick to fit your play style and the game works perfectly like that. If you want to specialize in '100%' swords, hey guess what, you can just use swords with sword bonus armor and sword bonus trinkets. If you want to switch to another weapon, that means unequipping the sword stuff for gun or bomb stuff and hey look your 'proficiency' in swords goes down as the new goes up.
i'm want to think my statement was the best and most distilled counter argument. I like your ideas tric. They are good ideas. They wouldn't necessarily make the game better (or worse for that matter). But to implement your changes would be to make SK a different game. you may as well say "i wish a game such as this existed, with the spiral knigths theme" as say "i wish spiral knights would implement this."
Its like saying, i wish my dog was tiny, had feathery wings, a beak , and could sing sweetly. Well, then your dog would be a bird, wouldn't it? why not simply wish for a bird.
Wow, after responses like that I can't just sit quiet. ( with the exception of Stomponadon )
THAT'S the kind of feedback I'm looking for. I would just like to say thanks for bothering to pay the subject a little more attention than so many of these other responses
Acid_Snow
that is absolutely true. for different types within the classes there probably should be varying proficiency subsets. but thats if the proficiency system was instated in the first place.
That would kind of be the idea also. but at the same time. it would be like not working out for a few weeks. you would need to get back into your regular rhythm.
actinium
I haven't actually played links adventure, at least not that I can remember. and those are all very valid means of playing this game, but not necessarily the only ways.
As for switching equips to effect it. idk, I guess its just going back to the idea of "hey, i've done this a billion times, shouldn't I get better at it?"
and the other thing is that with this proficiency, perhaps we could cut down on the number of wolvers running around >,< (im guilty of a sword setup myself Skolver set & barb shield)
And last, but certainly not least philidor
you've legitimately caught me. I've been developing a game of my own (not coding mind you) for the past jeez...8 years of my life. and quite frankly, spiral knights has the best base for my game I have ever seen. some gradual tweaking here and there could very easily send spiral knights developing into the direction of my own game.
My main philosophy is to eliminate grind of all kinds, and to globalize systems. what does that mean? Well, you'll just need to become involved in my games development to find out ^_^
and again, to those last 3 responses, thank you
Okay, I read that last bit of your final post there, and I need to get this out.
Spiral Knights is not your game. There is no reason to point Spiral Knights towards your ideals, and what with the opposition you have already acquired it is unlikely this will ever happen. Everyone has different views on what would make the game better, but if a clear majority agrees that this is a bad idea, it most likely is a bad idea.
Then, back to the subject at hand...
You keep talking about sword, gun and bomb proficiency/affinity, yet, you never explained how this actually works.
Yes, you become more proficient, but what does this mean? More damage? Higher attack speed? Faster charge? All three? What happens if you have no proficiency? Decreased damage, attack speed and increased charge time? Why? If not, what would be the point other than just making yourself stronger than someone who's trying to be an all-around Knight? If previously mentioned buffs apply, wouldn't UVs crash and sky-rocket in price depending on weapon class? Why is this as good an idea as you make it out to be?
This game is a hack and slash. Obviously, and stated several times already. This game has a lot of versatility, and freedom of customization. The way to advance in the game is through equipment, and specializing in a certain weapon class is done through equipping armour specifically designed for their use. Adding a weapon proficiency would strengthen and weaken the purpose of using a certain set of armour, moreso if you're an all-around Knight like me.
I have a sword, a bomb, and a gun for all situations. Sometimes I have two bombs, sometimes I have two guns, but for the most part I have two swords and am an active swords user. Would I like a buff for my swords? I'll equip a module, and possibly some sword-enhancing armour. Would I like to buff something else, I'll use another module. Customization is key, not specifically grinded stats, as there are none in the game. What you are suggesting is a level-up system, that isn't static, but increases with the use of one weapon, and decreases the others. How are you going to get through with this, without annoying Spiral Knights players to death? If you're not debuffed with 0% proficiency, there wouldn't be a point to have the system in the first place. If you did, people would be annoyed as they can no longer kill off mobs as effectively with another weapon as they could before. I use swords a whole lot, guns sometimes and bombs even less. This would make me a decent swordsman, a poor gunslinger, and a terrible bomber, yet, I would like to keep my proficiency for all weapons as an all-rounded Knight. Use of weapons should be situational, not a forced grind if you want them to be useful for later on. If you want to eliminate grind, this is something that should be avoided.
As it stands, players make way through the Clockworks using equipment specialized to deal with the immediate threat at hand, and using their skill and knowledge of the enemies to pick them out without taking damage themselves. It is not done through levelling up a skill, to one-shot everything with a leviathan charge in a four-man team. When playing, your character isn't the one improving, but your own timing and reaction to an enemy and the environment. Advancing is not done through your character gaining special ability and becoming more proficient at sword-hacking, gunslinging or bombing, but through your abilities to read the situation and get through an enemy horde without taking a single hit. The goal isn't necessarily to buff yourself to max DPS, but to build your skills to the point where enemies can not manage to harm you.
What I am trying to say here, is that instead of your in-game character improving, you are the one that improves. This is what makes this game different from other MMOs, and so enjoyable to play. Because it isn't because you've grinded levels to let your character kill a monster, but because you yourself figured out how to kill it while taking as little damage as possible. Your own skills are primary to survival, equipment is secondary. Random stats would disrupt the freedom of customization and usage we have, and this is why we do not want, nor need them, in this game.
Seeing how this game has been working with the current combat system, and everyone is happy with it, I feel that this is simply not needed and shouldn't be implemented.
what a very well though and almost painfully organized response.
To go into detail on how it works: you just did. XD
I didn't pose this idea to be an instant addition. I posed it for discussion.
(and I would like to see the ideas from my game implemented, but that's only because I think they're decent ideas in the first place, we go off into to much philosophy pursuing this tidbit, namely because it gets into "what is a game" and all other sorts of subjects)
that obviously is something to be discussed. My thoughts is that it should be purely a rewards system, not a punishable one. so if you have a 0% proficiency you aren't penalized for it, you just aren't rewarded.
as far as what the reward is, I'm not sure. buffs would be the logical conclusion, but which ones is interesting, reflexively I want to say an all around. so maybe at increments you recieve varying buffs from low to high? so if there are 3 cats to swords (damage, attack speed, charge time) and with three levels of increase (low, medium, high) that gives a total of 9 points at which the buffs could be added along the progression from 0 to 100.
one scheme I've come up with is as follows
(and I also lean towards players choosing the order)
10-20% : 1 point of buff to one buff
20-30% : 1 point of buff to one buff
30-50% : 1 point of buff to one buff
50-75% : 1 point to all buffs (this puts everything to med)
75-99%: 1 point to all buffs (this puts everything to high)
99%-100: 1 point to all buffs (this puts everything to very high)
so how does this apply specifically to you mr all around?
well if we busted it up nice an evenly(33% to each prof.) then you would recieve a low buff to all of the categories to everything. doesn't sound bad to me.
And to give this perspective I'm primarily a sword user, maybe cuz Im a nub, I don't really care:
even so, I still have bombs, I still have my guns. ( 1 and 1)
SO, assuming the breakdown goes like this:
82% swords
9% bombs
9% guns
then I m going to have
high buff to all cats for swords
and no buffs to anything else.
Which Im actually pretty cool with.
although, and I would consider this to be some level of logic skill, I notice that if I used my swords about 6% less of the time, I could actually pull 2 buffs(1 buff point each) to my bombs and guns.
NOW as far as implementation:
the proficiency is a ratio of the usage of weapons right?
so that means tallying how often you use a weapon (and I would like to note that bomb usage would actually count off, because you can;t really rapid fire bombs, so lets (for the time being) say a bomb use counts as 10 uses)
ALRIGHTY so we start the tally with say, 10000(lets call this the use list size, or uls for short) values of Null . this gives us a percentage of 0& proficiency.
each weapon action would take up these values. so I swing a sword 50 times, this gives me a prof, of .5 percent for swords. (50/10000)
I drop a bomb which gives me .1%
blah blah blah
yes I recognize this isn't exactly how ratios work, but...and It just occurred to me now, this could be where a shield prof, comes into play.
so instead of a list of nulls, it has a theoretical number of times we shielded. so every time we shield, could reduce our overall proficiency. (just a theory ...which Ill call shield theory)
now, when the list is fully populated (that is to say we never shielded according to shield theory) we reach a % that sums to 100% across the proficiencies.
thus the next time we use a weapon. the oldest thing in the list is removed, the newest takes its place, and the proficiencies shift.
obviously a list is just my means of explaining. a more efficient method would be 4 values. one for each weapon and then one to tally the "oldest" action.
there are also a few flaws to your evaluation. you forget one of the most important factors to this, and all games: the casual gamer. all gamers start as casual gamers, and is only through finding something we like in a game, or parts of a game, that make us into serious gamers.
for some of us its the nature, or as the biz would call it, the genre. first person shooting. fighting. hack and slash. etc.
so this is something that can be noticed by a causal gamer, they think, wow this makes sense, or, huh thats dumb. (hopefully the later since this is a pure rewards system)
Now, when it comes to personal development, you particularly neglect the casual gamer, but you also neglect logic. you can only get so good at mashing that gaurd button. you can only predict so well what the enemies are going to do.
stats are a compensation in many games
a replacement in others
but what they should be, is a flavor.
we play games because they are fun. how? thats up to us. for you its putting your skills to the test apparently.
but after how I've laid this out, how can I make it any more clear that this challenges you to test yourself even further?
again, this point, stat, whatever you wish to call it. is to emulate a factor of real life that can not be accurately depicted in game through the gamer.
again, "I have swung this sword a million times, should I not be better at swinging it?"
you respond, "but aren't you? you now know where and when to swing"
to which I reply, "but it doesn't change how!"
add I must stress, the values and ideas presented are just that! they are to be refined.
And I would very much like to point out, that the strategy which you point out, is most certainly the beat down gamer's response to the current environment. so many times has a bady smacked you charging that you have gone to the defensive. permanently. Guerrilla warfare.
which is honestly only one facet of gameplay which the game has forced into being the "right" way to game.
a point which you argued into stone my friend.
So to all you "elite" gamers, who take refuge in the submission games have beaten you into, I say RISE UP! (omg sweet jesus lol this is the actual last line. went back in proof, and had to add it XD)
SO why not change it? but not in such a way to break the game, but allow for players to advance to a point of near perfection.
Why not be able to reach a point of vanaduke 1 hit kills? Human nature comes in to play in the control of such a game system.
(and I would again VERY much like to point out that such an obvious "perversion" by current standards is used merely example and really would only be obtainable through a amount of work that an infinitesimal fraction of the gaming, let alone the SK population would be willing to pursue. and I'm not saying that by standards but im saying that in the fashion of, here balance yourself on one hand. "not possible" but still possible.)
getting back, I would also like to point out that the gameplay you suggest favors the party of technique, and kills the power.
like the adage of who will win?: A man who hits for 100%, 1% of the time? or one that hits for 1% 100% of the time?
I don't need to retype what others have said. Shidara basically summed it up and you through that post out the window. You may have acknowledged it, but you just went right back to making the game you want.
"Why not be able to reach a point of vanaduke 1 hit kills?"
I don't think you understand how SK was designed. Did you notice that every depth does different amounts of damage? Even with 5 star gear in tier 1, while you may do more damage than a 1-star newb, you are not doing the 200+ damage per sword swing you do in depth 25. There's already been design and reasoning to this, and I'm sure someone who proclaims to think about this stuff as much as you do can understand why this was done. The devs don't want you to just one shot everything eventually. That KILLS games. To answer your posed question: It would be terrible to reach a point where you can kill vanaduke in one hit because the power gap would be so gigantic that any difference in power would negatively impact how players perceive the game; it would turn it into a grind incredibly beyond any "grinding" in SK currently.
I'm not saying your ideas are terrible; they are just not for SK. I love discussing game mechanics (I'm a game developer myself for a studio much larger than OOO), but until you show any sign of understanding how SK has been designed, I can't discuss anymore with you. We encourage open discussion of every mechanic in the game, from concept artists to sound guys getting in on the discussion. But it's pretty easy to tell when someone isn't even on the same page, as if they never read the design doc or mission statement. We don't have OOO's design doc here, but I can tell you're no where near it.
You're incredibly long-winded, and need to learn to be more concise. Most of your posts are full of nothing.
I've skimmed this thread. Bad idea, because I often switch out my entire arsenal between stratums. Really, going into the official forums of a game and then expecting people to spend the same time as you in posting is naive.
I see no problem with how equipment levels. SK has, in my opinion, some glaring weaknesses (inability to select more than one item/mail at once, making trading/AH slow, for example), but equipment is not one of them.
TheTrip, do you really understand exactly how your idea would work if implemented? You say a player-based level system will add "flavor", and "challenge you to test yourself even further". With the system you describe, you are severely hindering equipment variability among players. As the game currently is, a player has complete freedom in what weapons to specialize in. Their "class" is determined solely on their equipment. By adding a specialization system as you described, a person would be hesitant in switching from pure swordsman to gunslinger, because their affinity with guns just isn't as high as swords. You are essentially locking players into one weapon role. This limits freedom, this limits "flavor".
I don't understand your point about casual gamers. In my opinion, SK is one of the most easy MMOs to get into, compared to games like WoW and Guild Wars which have a dozen different menus, complex skill trees, and a bajillion kinds of weapon/armor enhancements. You say that your system has no detriments, only rewards. This is wrong, however, because the detriment is that new players do not have these rewards. The wider the gap between novices and veterans, the less likely new players will stick around for long.
Throughout your argument I can't help but feel that you just want this game to be easier. You talk about 1-shotting Vanaduke, and how it's wrong to go on the defensive after just one mistake. This viewpoint is flawed in not just SK, but in all games. We WANT a challenge. We WANT to get punished for making stupid mistakes, so that we can learn how to avoid them in the future. We don't want to 1-shot Vanaduke because that takes out all the challenge. How many MMOs (or any type of game, even) where you can 1-shot the final boss? SK is already easy enough, if you want an easier game then please go play Angry Birds.
i agree with neon but
I don't understand your point about casual gamers. In my opinion, SK is one of the most easy MMOs to get into, compared to games like WoW and Guild Wars which have a dozen different menus, complex skill trees, and a bajillion kinds of weapon/armor enhancements
guild wars doesn't have skill trees, it has attributes each holding a number of skills. you don't learn skills in a specific order.
The number of subtle slights compared to actual lines of discussion on the subject is saddening. *shrugs*
It also saddens me that a confession of background instantly condemns me to some sort of vampire, walking in to convert things to my own end. *shrugs...and bites your neck XD*
as far as wall posts. I've reached my goals in SK. now I'm just waiting for the economy to improve. long wait is long.
gell
- longwinded to try and expound on ideas to prevent obvious hang ups. like you just did.
- - you missed the fact that the vanaduke wasn't actually a comment on this feature. just general discussion. good job on picking up on that.
- and I must admit where players are getting this grinding aspect from. I've tried numerous times to detail (which gave rise to being long winded) that this isn't something players would try to change, as something that would just happen for them.
- And if I was trying to convert this game to mine, there would be ALOT of other modifications. but that REALLY isn't the subject. don't know how many times I have to stomp that.
neonbarnacle you made some VERY good points...all which may or not present themselves in play testing.
As far as making the game easier...eh idk. the damage buff system has a cap...which this would go towards...so no, it wouldn't make the game easier, if anything it would encourage variability in armor, from the current trends now (skolver, vog, barbarous etc)
but you got hung up on the vanaduke tidbit...
I think your idea has been adequately shot down by multiple people with well voiced arguments now that you should let it go. Your posts are contradictory and nonsensical, your misuse of words and over use of childish *role play* emotes or personal attacks on poster's open mindedness or reasoning while posting gibberish and adamantly refusing to see what a bad idea character bound rather than item bound progression in sk would be is infuriating and your design theories have less thought in them than making a speaker dial that goes up to 11 because 'it's higher than 10'. Please just let the thread die.
first this should be in suggestions, second. No. That's the whole point of this game, you level your weapons, not your body. Otherwise it would be like every other MMORPG out there where you level your body/skills.