Spiral Knights - Questions from an Aspiring Swordsman

Questions from an Aspiring Swordsman

18 replies [Last post]

Sun, 09/11/2011 - 11:36

Agrimony

Legacy Username

(While I'm new to the game, I found that all of my questions are gear related so I decided to post in the Arsenal and not the New Recruits forum. In addition, this forum seems to be a bit more active, so hopefully my question can be answered in an overall better manner.)

Hello fellow knights, I simply have a few questions pertaining to swords and gear in general.
*(1)* First and foremost, I would like to know whether or not sword speed affects how quickly you can shield. I solo the Terminals 100% of the time at the moment, so shielding is a huge part of survival.

This question is also important because it is leashed to a number of other questions. At the moment, I am using the cutter because of its ability to throw in one or two quick attacks to a group of mobs, followed by a shield and retreat. As it seems now, most people state that the cutter series is the worst line of swords in the game (except for using the poison line for certain boss runs, but the points is that in general it's the worst).
*(2)* I would simply like to know, from a soloist swordsman perspective, how the cutter matches up to other opponents.

Looking at other swords like the troika/sealed series, I would like to know if it is better to simply throw in a good bit of slow burst damage vs a few quick slashes of lesser damage. This also touches on the question of shielding: will the long heavy sword swing make me more vulnerable to fast-attack mobs?

Moving onto the discussion of armor, I would like to know if there are ways of making the cutter (or quite possibly spur) as heavy damaging as say a leviathan (by heaving damaging I mean damage per hit, not overall DPS).

*(3)* Would it be better for me to go with the Skolver set as well as the barbed shield for upping the most damage possible for the cutter/possibly spur? Or should I go possibly caliber/brandish with a mixed set, or maybe even troika/sealed with a full vog set and other equips for max + attack speed?

All in all, I simply would like to know the pros and cons of each sword for a soloist. Since I will not have any funding I'm pretty sure I'm going to head down a single route, meaning I'm not getting any monster-specific swords and etc. ; I simply want a general all-purpose solo sword (which I head is the leviathan, but I want to see other options)

Finally, after pros and cons I'd like to know, in your opinion, which is the best sword for what I'm wanting to do, as well as what is the best set to go with it.

Thank you for you time, and all help is greatly appreciated.

Sun, 09/11/2011 - 15:19

Nievem

yes, your attack animation

yes, your attack animation takes slightly less so you can shield slightly sooner, to some this is 100% required

I've met people that use the cutter lines extremely well, but those are a huge minority. You become careless, and end up dead with ease. A lag spike is also a bit more dangerous since your sword keeps you very close to the enemies.

Cooler looking than leviathan is cold iron vanquisher, they work practically the same. If you want a heavy sword then Divine Avenger will work in most if not all situations. Light normal swords aren't suggested, only use them if you want to play "hard" mode. The spur line will be hard to use versus wolvers, but the cutter line isn't that different either (both throw extra swings as projectiles, and wolvers dodge at every one of them). Flourish and Barb lines are light but piercing, so if you go with a light normal sword try to grab one of these as they will do better versus the wolvers.

Troika and Brandish series aren't bad but the other two lines are better for general use.

If you go light you'll probably want +damage and forget about CTR because their charges generally suck, with medium swords you'll want charge time reduction, because their charges are useful, but the other two will work too, with heavy swords ASI will help, but some like divine avenger benefit from any bonus really.

Vog Cub+Owlite will work through most of the game as it is right now. Skolver+Barb Shield can work as well, but you'll have lower defensive power (except versus jelly king of course).

Even as a swordsman you may enjoy polaris and shivermist buster. You can get glacius if you dont like the bomb, and anything with knockback can replace polaris (plus any ranged weapon, even you proto gun). Like I said Leviathan, Cold Iron or Divine Avenger are the best bets if you want to have one single sword and your proto gun, with CTR as priority for them (buy the trinkets if the CTR on swords are too expensive, but med ctr should be okay to pay for), but since vog cub is the best armor if you only want to have one set then ASI will come free.

I won't expect you to solo the Jelly King or Vanaduke with that, everything else should be doable. On a team, you can support versus the JK with your charges, and you'll have to clear the room from minions versus Vanaduke while trying to minimize the damage to your teammates which is the lesser role but still important.

Sun, 09/11/2011 - 16:00

Bopp

get piercing, elemental, shadow

You seem to be thinking in detail about how to time attacks with shielding, which is great. But the swords you are considering don't make much sense to me. There are many considerations in choosing a weapon: speed, range, knockback, status effects, etc. But probably the most important weapon consideration, at least for swords and guns, is damage type. All monsters are neutral to normal damage. This makes normal weapons general-purpose, not specialized. Serious swordsmen/women tend instead to have a piercing sword, an elemental sword, and a shadow sword, and to switch among them based on the monster they're fighting, to deal as much damage as possible. If you found this advice helpful, you might check out my wiki page for more like it.

Sun, 09/11/2011 - 16:47

Agrimony

Legacy Username

Thanks for the responses

@gia257 Thanks for the reply! The information will be very useful to me. If you ever happen to come back on this thread, though, I just have a few questions of finality. You seem to say that the cutter, spur and other lights etc. are harder (and worse?) than the other lines. Does this mean that if my skill is high enough to reach the skill ceiling of these swords they will be able to match up (preform) equally with the other swords, or do you mean they're harder and/or worse in general?

My second question is, of every sword line, if I were to have reached the skill ceiling of all swords, which would be THE BEST all purpose soloist sword, including survivability, burst damage, and DPS?

@jdavis I appreciate the suggestion, however I already said I will not have funding, and I will also not be spending a lot of money on the game, if any to begin with. I will only have enough farming time for crowns sufficient for a full set, shield, sword, and gun. However, if I am ever to make enough for such a thing such as other sword lines and a 3rd weapon slot, I'll check your guide for info.

Sun, 09/11/2011 - 19:05

Bopp

oh...

Sorry, I did miss the part where you said that you wanted only one sword.

On the other hand, I am currently developing a new character, playing it entirely for free, and this character is about to be all 4-star, with a piercing/elemental/shadow selection as I described, and it hasn't taken very long (a few weeks I guess). So I'd still recommend that you consider this path, even if you don't have any "funding".

If you still want just one sword: Yes, Leviathan. Also, the armor that gia257 suggested doesn't have any shadow protection. You'll find fiends difficult, deep in the Clockworks. Last recommendation: Divine Veil. Best wishes. :)

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 01:32

Fradow

Cookie cutter

For soloing, the best all-purpose weapon is Leviathan, without any doubt, if you only go with one sword.

As general knowledge, the cookie cutter gear (the one that will perform well in any situation) is :
Sword : Leviathan, no exception.
Gun : Polaris (arguably, some people will say to take a normal damage gun. Don't listen to them, you have your Levi for a reason)
Armor : Vog Cub (arguably Skolver for piercing themed strata)
Shield : Grey Owlite (arguably Barbarous Thorn for piercing themed strata)

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 04:53

Bopp

Fradow's general-purpose list is good...

Fradow's general-purpose list is good, but it too lacks any shadow protection. Just do yourself a favor and look at Divine Veil next to Skolver Coat. This is an incredible general-purpose armor/helmet combination.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 06:28

Bopp

also, let me just say this about two weapon slots

Also: Even with just two weapon slots, you should still consider carrying two non-normal weapons. For then you can do huge damage against 4/6 of monsters and moderate damage against the other 2/6 of monsters. More explicitly:

Suppose that you're carrying a piercing sword and an elemental sword. You use piercing against fiends, beasts, and gremlins, and elemental against undead, constructs, and slimes. Then you do huge damage against fiends, beasts, undead, and constructs, and moderate damage against gremlins and slimes.
Similarly, with an elemental sword and shadow sword, you can do huge damage against slimes, gremlins, undead, and constructs, and moderate damage against beasts and fiends.
Similarly, with a piercing sword and a shadow sword, you can do huge damage against beasts, fiends, slimes, and gremlins, and moderate damage against undead and constructs.

In contrast, if you have two normal swords, then you deal moderate damage to 6/6 of monsters --- distinctly worse than the combinations above. The same reasoning applies to guns. It also applies to sword+gun mixtures, although I can understand why you might ignore it there, because swords and guns are used so differently. It does not apply to the current selection of bombs.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 07:11

Lemon-Neko

darn mobile trashed last comment

In short, voltedge, ash on Agni, dark brair barrage, divine veil. The rest is whatever.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 12:01

Agrimony

Legacy Username

Thanks for the replies

@Fradow is there any particular reason why Leviathan is a good solo sword, emphasis on solo? I have heard from many people that it's quite the decent sword, but for soloing in particular, how does it's burst damage, DPS, and swing speed and pattern match up to other swords?

@jdavis I'll be using a gun and a sword, the particular reason being that certain monsters are simply too dangerous to take on close range. I could understand if I picked up a charge-attack sword with a long range projectile, however most of these swords are elemental specific.

With two slots, one for a gun and one for a sword, I see 0 room for monster specific weapons. Maybe later when I have enough crowns.

@both how important exactly is elemental specific defense in most situations? Would it not be more beneficial to increase attack speed and attack damage? I have noticed that wearing a skelly mask opposed to a wolver cap does reduce 1/4 - 1/3 of the damage received by ghosts, however in most cases the reason for being damaged is directly related to A: the amount of monsters surrounding you (increased AS/AD helps solve this problem), B: your ability to shield and bump back or knock back enemies in the correct time (AS is required for this), and C: mobility to avoid projectiles and attack (in the end, nothing can really solve this except for timing). Now, one thing I can understand is resistance to detrimental effects like stun and freeze, but in the end it seems as if I'm wasting potential by taking an elemental resistance route. In tier 3 endgame, are you truly hit enough times and hit hard enough that such armor is required?

Again, thanks for the replies.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 12:09

#10

Bopp

elemental armor

You asked about elemental armor. First, in case you didn't know, monsters deal normal damage on Strata 1 and 2, but deal more of their preferred damage type (piercing, elemental, or shadow) the deeper you go into the Clockworks. So in Strata 5 and 6 that are construct- or gremlin-themed, elemental armor really helps. For slime- or beast-themed, piercing armor helps, and for undead- or fiend-themed, shadow armor helps.

I haven't backed this up with a detailed quantitative study, but my gut feeling is that if you're on an elemental-damage-heavy level, you would much rather have elemental armor than a little ASI or ADI. But I don't understand why you're posing the question as an either/or. Vog Cub gives you ASI and elemental protection. Skolver gives you ADI and piercing protection.

Also, I couldn't tell from your post whether you're associating elemental protection with stun and freeze protection. They're completely separate.

I apologize if I'm telling you a lot of stuff you already know.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 13:02

#11

Tipiak

@Agrimony, the reason Levi

@Agrimony, the reason Levi fits solo is the knockback of the charge, which is very nice solo, but can throw mobs at your party-mates otherwise. Apart from that DPS, speed, etc. make it a very nice all-around sword (but never doing any damage your opponent is weak to...).

Elemental defense remains important (especially in deeper strata) because, for instance, gun puppies are everywhere (even in non-construct strata) and can get you from far away... you could go with full skolver but then owlite (or another elemental def. shield) might become necessary...

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 15:46

#12

Agrimony

Legacy Username

@Both Thanks for the

@Both Thanks for the information. I wasn't aware that the Vog and Skolver sets gave any resistance other than normal, so that's good to know. As far as status resistance goes, to my knowledge the Divine Veil and other certain armors give more resist to more types compared to Skolver/Vog, so that's why I referred to it. Because both of you suggest elemental defense is still very important, I will definitely take it into account when choosing a set.

As for the cutter vs caliber vs sealed, I still feel like I can't make a full decision. The cutter offers a quick-shield approach to taking on mobs, however it's short range and inability to knock-back monsters until it's second swing makes it somewhat hard to use. It's damage is also extremely gimped as well because you need to practically be on top of the mob you want to hit to allow for the secondary damage to be taken. The Leviathan and other medium swords seem like a good route, however for their slower attack speed and lower damage in comparison to the sealed series I feel like it would be better to go sealed and then all out AS+ through Vog.

One experience I did have earlier today was when I was in the royal jelly maps. On the map right before the boss, I legitimately died (twice, might I add due to lack of health potions) which is extremely unordinary for me (I've soloed many, many tier two maps without dying). If it's only tier 2 and I'm having this much trouble in pre-boss maps, I'm not sure if the cutter will cut it (heh). (Is it because I'm using the cutter and not the striker?) (I will add that I'm using a star 0 stun gun as my secondary weapon for long ranged use; how big of a problem is this?)

Another question (sorry) that will help me seal the deal on my sword problem is the amount of +AS received from Vog and other armor items (are there any else?).

When using the sealed sword, how much faster will the sword actually swing with this boost? Same question goes for the Leviathan. I'd really like to know so I can finally shut the cap on my first sword path. I want a sword that I can be able to swing and shield fast enough for even the fastest attacking mobs.

Thanks again.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:25

#13

Bopp

speed, and you're headed to Leviathan

You asked how much faster Vog Cub makes your sword attacks. My impression is that wearing both the Cap and the Coat makes my combos on DA about 25% faster than wearing no Vog Cub. But I haven't studied it carefully.

I don't understand why you're still considering Sealed Sword. Unless you plan to keep it at 3-star, which is crazy, it will become either a normal+elemental or a normal+shadow sword. Then it is no longer general-purpose. So if you're still focused on having just one sword for all fights, then Sealed Sword is disqualified.

That leaves you (according to your list) Leviathan and Dread Venom Striker. DVS is better against JK, but Leviathan is better in all other situations. Leviathan is plenty fast. DVS is faster, but speed like that is just not necessary, and may be undesirable even. There is no contest.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:42

#14

Fradow

What Tipiak said for Levi in

What Tipiak said for Levi in solo. After using it, you'll probably love the Charge Attack (it can hit for up to 3 times on a cornered enemy, more often 2 times when being very close). This Charge Attack is HATED in a party.

For the rest, it's a standard 3 hit sword, very similar to Brandish for the attack pattern. And the normal damage makes it a very desirable choice for a 2 weapons slots gear.

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:45

#15

Nievem

@OP On paper they arent worse

@OP On paper they arent worse but on practice you'll see most people wielding them being the ones that die the most. As such they are hard mode :) I would be impressed if I see you handling them with expertise (ie. not getting hit once), of course I'm talking tier 3, the lower tiers feel too easy once you go back to them. Perhaps another problem is that you focus on your current target to see when to shield, but the problem is that you have 8 retrodes plus bombers or what not behind you, sometimes attacking off screen. With calibur you just concentrate on dodging all along and then unleash a charge and continue dodging.

I suppose divine avenger has the highest damage potential with its charge attack, your skill will come on shaping the mobs to maximize damage and aiming properly (disable auto target on the options menu). But that potential only comes at 5 stars, the sword sucks until then. The calibur line is the same all along its upgrade path.

If you follow some sugestions and deviate from being a swordsman, Polaris will work too as it needs skill to maximize its damage and its always good regardless of upgrade level, if you main polaris, you can use the cutter as backup, you'll probably kill slower than with a sword, but without much danger. Same for many bombs, although they do like the upgrades to increase its explosion range.

Regardless of what you go with learn the advanced techniques like shield and charge cancelling, or shooting without triggering reloads.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 03:34

#16

Agrimony

Legacy Username

@jdavis Thanks for the

@jdavis Thanks for the approximate attack speed increase. The only reason I considered sealed swords was for the Divine Avenger only. It's charge attack seems to be one of the best in the game (simply from what I saw in videos, though), which is something to ponder. As far as the Levi vs the DVS, it seems that there are no benefits from the DVS to gain other than it's use versus JK and other DPS situations.

@Fradow This reasserts the evidence that the Leviathan is a better solo sword.

@gia257 I feel that even if I was at the maximum skill ceiling for the sword, there are no on-paper benefits that I would receive over Leviathan except for a few specific times such as JK. With the Divine Avenger vs Leviathan, it looks like there are points for getting either, but I'll make that decision later. I was definitely considering a Polaris or Supernova as a secondary, but apparently many think the Polaris is better, so I'll probably go with that.

Thanks for the suggestions. I don't think I need anything else as the information in this thread is sufficient enough to help me down my path. I thank you all greatly and perhaps I'll see you in the lower tier 3 depths later.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 05:49

#17

Nievem

Yeah the DVS doesnt offer

Yeah the DVS doesnt offer anything special other than the satisfaction of being able to pull it off, that means it matches other swords at best. Maybe they are more useful on the pvp mode, no idea. One pro I haven't noticed clearly due to their low popularity is that it's projectiles should trigger devilites/others dodge responses, if it makes them go crazy then that would certainly be a use since that counts as partial defense, leviathan won't offer you a strong radius of fear around you when you attack, you'll just get hit back most of the time. But it does get annoying to your party members specially when fighting wolvers.

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 05:54

#18

Bopp

DA is not good against gremlins and beasts

The DA charge attack is one of the best in the game --- when used on the correct monsters. It's great against constructs and undead. It's okay against slimes and fiends. Against gremlins and beasts it is not very good at all!

Similarly, you're considering Polaris (pure elemental) vs. Supernova (pure normal). Polaris stinks against gremlins and beasts. If you want one gun to use on all monsters, there is no contest here.

Eventually you will appreciate the impact of damage type. You can either appreciate it now, by reading the Damage wiki article or the Damage and Status Effects section of my wiki page, or you can appreciate it later, after getting very frustrated with some very expensive weapons. Good luck. :)

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Questions from an Aspiring Swordsman