Spiral Knights - PArty grouping is broken

PArty grouping is broken

15 replies [Last post]

Fri, 10/29/2010 - 01:46

BehindCurtai

Legacy Username

There is serious "broken-ness" in forming a party group while in the dungeons.

For me, it happened in the "multiplayer" starter dungeon (Sparrow?).

First, people came into the area I was in, and joined me. I have no idea if they went through a level that had been depopulated of monsters and treasures because I was there first, or if it was separately instanced up until we were joined. Considering that at no point had I passed a "point of no return", I suspect that all the rewards I had gotten up until then were denied the other players -- that actually would stink, as far as I was concerned, if I was trying to explore and kill things, only to find that someone else had gotten all the goodies first.

Second, I wasn't asked if I wanted someone to join me -- I was party leader, and could dismiss them. Had to, actually, because of lag.

Third, when I did dismiss them, well, they were in an area with an "all party members to continue" button, and I was not. With them out of the party, they disappeared from my screen, the "divider gate" went up, and I could not continue on forward.

There are some strange questions to ask about "what happens next". I'm past one "all party" button; can someone else join me now, or am I "permanently instanced" for the rest of this level? Can people only join before the first "All party" button?

Second, since I cannot continue, if I become joined, will the others that join in be unable to continue?

Third, is there any "emergency panic" thing to do at this point? What does logging out do -- am I back here next time? Am I back at the surface? (I'll find out :-).

There's a big difference between joining up with people that you want to play with, and being joined up with people that you don't want to. On a previous level, when I was at the end and had already killed off the boss, I was in a browser window reading the wiki, only to find someone had joined me, and was stuck waiting for me (I dismissed him from the party when I realized what was up). But that short time was enough to determine that this person spoke in chat speak, and was a "wave weapon first, talk later" type of person -- not the type that I'd want to party with. Equally, the two that I got teamed up with later were the "Lets just go clobber stuff" type.

* Equally problematic, I was equipped based on going in solo -- for going with a group I would need different equipment *.

Being able to join up while going through? Potentially good.
Being forced to join up? Probably not.
Finding that your dungeon instance is cleared out before you got there, when you were not trying to join a friend? Unpleasant.

Fri, 10/29/2010 - 01:57

not_shiro

Legacy Username

All clockworks expeditions

All clockworks expeditions are instanced from the very beginning - there are no public areas except the towns.

If you want to keep anyone from joining you, you have to select 'solo' in the party size on the Create Party tab when entering a dungeon.

When someone joins a party, they are placed near the party leader in the current floor - previous and next floors aren't even loaded until the party as a whole transitions to the next one. It's very segmented that way.

New party members will only get distributed any loot, money, and heat that are picked up after the point at which they join.

Logging out at any point within the clockworks in any situation will return you to the nearest town.

If you wind up on the wrong side of a one-way gate and can't continue, use the Report Bug feature so the developers can fix it for future occurances.

To avoid mishaps with getting people you don't want in your party, create a party with the Friends-Only option ticked next time you're in a dungeon, and make sure the other planned party members are listed as friends in the Social menu.

All in all, beyond the one-way gate bug you encountered, everything is functioning as normal. Try looking at the game with more of an open mind, because this isn't WoW or KMMO #5748.

Fri, 10/29/2010 - 02:33

Burninat0r

Legacy Username

Test it.

Seriously, dude.

May I suggest actually testing some of these questions out rather than posting every little thought that comes into your head? This isn't your notepad.exe (or TextEdit, for Mac users), and almost every thing you asked is easily testable with a few friends. Don't have friends? Then make some or go cry about it.

I know this is a harsh post, but I'm annoyed, so take it with a grain of salt.

Fri, 10/29/2010 - 02:43

Quiva

Just because you aren't using

Just because you aren't using a function properly, through either lack of experience/knowledge or willful intent, doesn't mean it's broken. Please consider all aspects of that statement and how it may be used to solve your problems before you decide to post again.

Fri, 10/29/2010 - 02:57

Shroom

Legacy Username

Pretty much every thread

Pretty much every thread you've created is based on some gross misunderstanding of the systems in place. *sigh* I guess that's why we're all here. When developing a game, it's never the player's fault, I always say.

At the same time, though, I think you'll find most people are the "Let's just go clobber stuff" type because when you're in a dungeon, that's the only thing to do. This isn't a problem, either. This game is a dungeon crawler. If you aren't familiar with the genre, a lot of things are going to be very confusing for you.

Also, it costs energy to travel to a level. Any levels skipped when joining a group don't require energy, and thus (unless you join right at the end of a level) it balances out. Also, I can say that if I spent 10 energy to join a group in progress only to be immediately kicked, I'd be a little annoyed.

Fri, 10/29/2010 - 11:44

BehindCurtai

Legacy Username

Sheesh. Alright, everyone

Sheesh.

Alright, everyone take a time out.

The most important thing for the development of any new game is the responses and reactions of new players.

The single most important goal for any game is to turn new players into repeat players. Lacking that, nothing else will work.

The most important thing that developers can get to make future new players into repeat players is feedback from new players.

You cannot tell a new player "Don't post; we don't want to hear from you until you know what you're doing". That's the best way I know of to turn off new players.

Yes, there are controls for specifying that you want solo play, group play, open to anyone, open to only your friends, etc.

But they are hidden! I didn't know about them when I started. Nothing in the documentation points them out. I only found them by clicking on everything in the interface.

That's not the best way to design a game.

Responding:
> All clockworks expeditions are instanced from the very beginning - there are no public areas except the towns.

Yes. So imagine how surprised I was to find that someone else came into my instanced area. I kinda thought that was the point of an instance -- I (or my group) have got our own private copy.

> When someone joins a party, they are placed near the party leader in the current floor - previous and next floors aren't even loaded until the party as a whole transitions to the next one. It's very segmented that way.

No problem with that. My issue was "lets make the default to party up in the middle of something, and not tell anyone."

Defaulting to party up when you start together: Fine.
Defaulting to party up when you're in the middle of something? Big Surprise.

> New party members will only get distributed any loot, money, and heat that are picked up after the point at which they join.

But how much?

Lets say that a level have 200 crowns and 50 heat. If I go through solo, that's what I'll get.

What will I get going through with three people if I have round-robin (the default) selected? If I have free for all selected? If the person I joined has a different setting than I do? (Can I join in such a case?)

If I get less because someone joined, I'm hurt.
But if I don't, then someone can go in with three do-nothing alts, and get 4 times as much reward.

You are trying to balance encounters for anywhere from 1 to 4 people. Do you make the number of spawns variable, so that bigger groups get bigger spawns? What if the spawns all go after one person and that person has more deaths == more energy expense to revive? What if they don't, and you're basically playing multiple solo games at the same time? What if a computer behaves just fine for solo, but suddenly becomes lagariffic in the group, and the player dies for something that they can't control?

> May I suggest actually testing some of these questions out rather than posting every little thought that comes into your head?

Because I can not test things that require multiple people.
I can point out what looks wrong, so that people who can test do test.

> Just because you aren't using a function properly, through either lack of experience/knowledge or willful intent, doesn't mean it's broken. Please consider all aspects of that statement and how it may be used to solve your problems before you decide to post again.

You are absolutely correct.

Who is responsible for making sure that players know how to play a game?
Note that this is happening in the tutorial zone. I'm not supposed to know how things work this early.

> At the same time, though, I think you'll find most people are the "Let's just go clobber stuff" type because when you're in a dungeon, that's the only thing to do.
I am an explorer. I like to look around.

I actually enjoy looking at the background gear works. It's pointless; it has no effect on the game. I can play "World of Goo" on my mac, and watch that game's "gearworks" without any problems; for this game, I have to turn the graphics to low (turning all of that off) to play on my Mac. But I can watch them on the windows box -- I just don't have access to it very much.

Will I watch it after I've gotten used to it? Probably not. But it's nice looking at the holes in the sky, and the gears rotating around other gears (still looking for a planetary gear ring; double points if it changes what's loose and what locks so it actually rotates differently.)

I'm also "Thorough". I like to finish something. I don't mind killing all of the destroyable blocks (found some hiddens that way), killing all the puppy guns (pointless, but fun), sitting in the way while a puppy shoots my shield (do you know how long it takes one puppy to overload that shield?), etc.

I'm actually using bombs as a main weapon. That's definitely not a multi-player strategy, but it does do area affect damage for multiple monsters; timing becomes everything. That's probably not a normal strategy; that's something an explorer ("Hey, what if I do X") will try out, but a "Just shoot them" person won't.

Fri, 10/29/2010 - 12:14

ViashinoMage

Legacy Username

When someone picks up heat or

When someone picks up heat or crowns, everyone in the party gets that amount. It's not divided between players.

If you want to solo, you can either set your party to that when you start or, once you're in the dungeon, go to the Social tab, select Party, and change settings there.

There's not much too explore in dungeons. There's various paths, but most people will want to explore all of them anyway for the most loot.

Bombs aren't party unfriendly. I'm pretty sure friendly fire doesn't apply to your teammates.

The problem with you is that you're coming in here and complaining about things you haven't taken the time to think about and try out. Not only that, you're being very rude and unpleasant about it.

And if you're still in the tutorial, why are you complaining about not knowing how things work instead of learning?

Fri, 10/29/2010 - 16:54

BehindCurtai

Legacy Username

I am learning. I'm learning

I am learning.

I'm learning as fast as I can test and experiment.

I'd like to learn as fast as people can teach, but people here don't seem to want to teach as much as I'd expect.

> When someone picks up heat or crowns, everyone in the party gets that amount. It's not divided between players.

Are you aware that there is both "free for all" and "round robin" settings? Do you know how this setting affects distribution?

I don't.

But if everyone does get stuff, then why not bring three non-paying accounts into dungeons with you, just to collect extra payouts? I'm assuming that there is a trade feature that I haven't seen yet.

> Bombs aren't party unfriendly. I'm pretty sure friendly fire doesn't apply to your teammates.
Even if friendly fire doesn't happen, what you have to do to attack with bombs is.

It becomes all about the timing of dropping bombs. You want the monsters to approach you, and not be distracted by others. The little bit of party work I saw had all the timing of the drops and monster charging you all off.

You use the curtains; you push through, drop a bomb, and retreat. You might need to shield, push the monsters away while using the shield, and then charge. Actually, that can be with party -- two or three people use shields to push away, then one person drops a bomb, and everyone retreats. That would work well, but requires co-ordination.

> There's not much too explore in dungeons. There's various paths, but most people will want to explore all of them anyway for the most loot.
I would have thought so also, but the few people I was grouped with wanted to rush.

Fri, 10/29/2010 - 17:58

Cromendi

You are not doing it right

@BehindCurtai

Half of what you posted right there can be answered by yourself if you pay attention for a bit longer than 3 mins and I'm saying it not just to be mean, but because it's true.

Also some of the "point" you brought up are also been explained in tutorials, wonder how you missed that seeing you are still in it.

Fri, 10/29/2010 - 19:24

Kharnor

Legacy Username

Using alts to farm isn't

Using alts to farm isn't currently very feasible, for a few reasons.

There's an energy cost to enter the floor, so you're paying 40 energy to get 4 times the crowns.

You don't get any extra materials or items for this extra cost.

Heat can't be transferred, so alts can't help much in levelling up your gear.

Most levels have party buttons, which all players must stand on to continue. So in order for all your alts to get all the crowns on a level, you must either A: alt tab to each one and move them to the button, thus greatly increasing the time it takes, or B: remove them from the party and have them rejoin, which costs another 10 energy.

Any other benefits from having alts in your party (e.g. reviving through sharing health instead of spending energy) can also be obtained (and much easier) by adventuring with others.

Alts don't get their own mist energy unless you pay some real money on that account.

You are right that alt abuse is always something to consider carefully; there have been many suggestions about changes to the party system and incentives for party play and any such changes will have to consider this issue.

Fri, 10/29/2010 - 20:24

#10

Shroom

Legacy Username

All of the party options are

All of the party options are labeled. I don't know how they could be more clear without showing large pop ups that warn you what you're about to do. Maybe the first time you open the Sparrow menu, it could give you a quick rundown of your options, but right now it feels like you simply aren't reading. How can we be sure you would have read any additional help tips if you didn't look at the labels already next to the buttons on your screen?

The main reason, though, that people are telling you to play instead of posting countless questions is because as soon as something didn't happen exactly as you expected it to, while still in the tutorial, you made a post about it, even though it is explained in the tutorial. In another thread, you complained that you couldn't pick up hearts, but then a few posts down, acknowledged that you found the sign that told you that you can't pick them up when your health is full. This sign is only a few steps away from the first heart.

In a few other threads, you have brought up some decent points, but a lot of this feels like you're complaining that the game didn't explicitly tell you to read the information that was already right in front of you.

Fri, 10/29/2010 - 21:51

#11

Kharnor

Legacy Username

It took me a LONG time to

It took me a LONG time to find the party options - in fact I didn't know they existed until I saw them mentioned on the forums about a week after I started playing. They are hidden in an expandable menu that doesn't look anything like an expandable menu, and doesn't even need to be expandable in the first place because there's nothing else in that space.

Please refrain from attacking people making legitimate points, even if they are annoying.

Fri, 10/29/2010 - 22:59

#12

BehindCurtai

Legacy Username

< Sigh >. Last comment from

< Sigh >.

Last comment from me on this issue.
PLEASE, consider what a brand new player is going to see and do. Don't assume that because you know what you're doing that someone else will.

[quote]All of the party options are labeled. I don't know how they could be more clear without showing large pop ups that warn you what you're about to do. Maybe the first time you open the Sparrow menu, it could give you a quick rundown of your options, but right now it feels like you simply aren't reading. How can we be sure you would have read any additional help tips if you didn't look at the labels already next to the buttons on your screen?

The main reason, though, that people are telling you to play instead of posting countless questions is because as soon as something didn't happen exactly as you expected it to, while still in the tutorial, you made a post about it, even though it is explained in the tutorial. In another thread, you complained that you couldn't pick up hearts, but then a few posts down, acknowledged that you found the sign that told you that you can't pick them up when your health is full. This sign is only a few steps away from the first heart.

> All of the party options are labeled. I don't know how they could be more clear without showing large pop ups that warn you what you're about to do.
Not a single option is visible, let alone labeled.

> Maybe the first time you open the Sparrow menu, it could give you a quick rundown of your options, but right now it feels like you simply aren't reading.

What do you mean, "The first time you ** open ** the Sparrow menu"?

What makes you think anyone will even notice that there's something there to open?

Yes, now I know that it's there, and now I know how to adjust it.

But for new players?

> because as soon as something didn't happen exactly as you expected it to, while still in the tutorial, you made a post about it, even though it is explained in the tutorial.

No. None of the things I've complained about are explained in the tutorial.

Maybe they *SHOULD* be explained in the tutorial.

Nothing about party organization, or even that you can be joined into another party without realizing it, is explained in the tutorial. All it has is a single line about "The sparrow dungeon is the first time you can group up with other spiral knights. If you have questions, ask the knights outside the dungeon". Or something like that.

Well, where will anyone find any knowledgeable person to ask?

*** ANY PLAYER THAT KNOWS AND UNDERSTANDS THE PARTY SYSTEM WILL BE OUT OF THIS TOWN, AND UNABLE TO RETURN ***

You are guaranteeing that the people that don't really understand all the details will be teaching people who have no idea what they don't really know.

You are guaranteeing the worst possible starting experience, where anyone who actually has answers isn't there to provide them.

There is no greetering system; no mentoring system. There's no way for a guild to have people stationed in the starting town to teach and recruit.

The blind leading the blind. Think green oceans the first month.

> acknowledged that you found the sign that told you that you can't pick them up when your health is full. This sign is only a few steps away from the first heart.

Yes, only a few steps. But that's still enough for a new player to wonder "What's going on? Why can't I pick this up?".

Saying, "Be confused. Wonder if you're doing it right. Try to figure out what might be going on. It's absolutely nothing, but you won't know for a while", is a really bad design idea. Yet from the hearts to how parties work, guess what happens?

===
> Alts don't get their own mist energy unless you pay some real money on that account.

And how will that work at release? Once you can permit multiple people to play, with multiple accounts, how do you say "Alts can't get mist"?

Do you say "One free mist account per computer"? What about shared computers? What about when I played from someone else's PC -- have I now tainted that machine so that that person cannot get an account with free mist?

===
> So in order for all your alts to get all the crowns on a level, you must either A: alt tab to each one and move them to the button, thus greatly increasing the time it takes,

If the level is clear, that doesn't take much time at all. Yes, crowns are the only duplicated freebie (items are bound, so the heat isn't meaningful), and yes, crowns in the training area are dirt, but I'm assuming that crowns will be significant rewards later on.

Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that monster parts are the most valuable treasure later on. For that matter, tell me how to turn parts into cash -- I've now completed the tutorial zone, found vendors on the bottom level by the final exit AND in the final "post dungeon" zone, and I can't figure out how they could possibly make enough money to support themselves. And no one has yet told me what to do with vendor trash.

Sat, 10/30/2010 - 01:26

#13

Kharnor

Legacy Username

I'm not sure about the

I'm not sure about the particulars of the mist enrgy/alt situation. There was a post by a dev about it somewhere.

Buy recipes, learn recipes, use materials to craft equipment. High level equipment requires rare materials.

Materials can also be sold to vendors, but you don't get much for that, at all. It's really just if you're strapped for cash and want to buy something right now. You can sell the rarer stuff to newer players for much much more, though. Check the bazaar forum. There's also plans for some sort of auction house.

Monster parts are more valuable than crowns. The rare ones, anyway. The values of crowns, energy and materials are all functions of what you can do with them, which of course is in a state of flux. Right now the most valuable thing is energy, because if you keep playing for long enough, that's the only commodity you're going to need more of.

Sat, 10/30/2010 - 15:33

#14

Shroom

Legacy Username

The "Sparrow menu" is the

The "Sparrow menu" is the menu that appears when you are about to enter the Sparrow Gate. It's the first one that has any group options on it. You have to open it to enter the Sparrow Gate. The menu was expanded by default for me. Maybe this was a setting that was carried over from the last preview event. I had forgotten that it was even expandable. Maybe it should be expanded at all times. It's not like that room is exactly needed for anything else, unless your screen is very, very small.

The objective of the tutorial is ensure players will have basic knowledge of the game by the time they finish. So if a player attempts to pick up a heart but can't figure out why he can't, it won't matter because he will understand by the time the tutorial is over. The first time I encountered heat, I had no idea what it was. This didn't impede my progress. A bit later in the stage, heat was explained to me. By the time that tutorial stage was finished, I had no unanswered questions.

I actually consider explaining the reasons for things after they happen to be a much more effective way of teaching. If a game is explaining a lot of things at the beginning, I'm not going to understand the relevance of all of that information. I may forget some, ignore some, or simply skip some. If, instead, something happens and I don't understand it, I'll become curious and more eager to find out. This is how you make people want to learn about the game. You just have to hope that they accept that the tutorial is there to educate them. Most players don't stop playing and do everything in their power to learn every aspect of the game before proceeding forward, especially when they're still in the tutorial. If the players don't trust the tutorial, it's hard for it to help them.

Sat, 10/30/2010 - 20:22

#15

Mesona

Legacy Username

I would prefer if the menu

I would prefer if the menu was, by default, expanded all the time, or if it remembered your last settings.

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PArty grouping is broken