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Cautery Sword

15 replies [Last post]
Tue, 09/20/2011 - 15:55
Antistone
Legacy Username

The Cautery Sword seems obviously designed for JK runs, but on top of the fact that it's a dead-end upgrade path, it also does less damage to regular slimes than the Nightblade, making it awfully hard to justify using anywhere at all.

I suggest it be changed to 50% shadow damage and 50% elemental. Like a Nightblade or an elemental-burst Brandish, that's effective against 2 monster classes, normal against 2, and weak against 2, but the two that it's strong against are slimes and constructs, which happen to be the two types that appear in the Jelly Palace. It would still be a dead-end upgrade path and no better in general than other 3-star Brandish upgrades, but at least there would be ONE place where it would be unambiguously useful.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 15:59
#1
Madadder's picture
Madadder
it also does less damage to

it also does less damage to regular slimes than the Nightblade

thats because nightblade does shadow damage which slimes are weak to

im going with a no on this. there should be an upgrade path but not the way u want it

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 16:56
#2
Antistone
Legacy Username
thats because nightblade does

thats because nightblade does shadow damage which slimes are weak to

Um, yes. What's your point?

Currently, the Cautery Sword's sole advantage is its damage bonus versus slimes; if that's not enough to make it the weapon of choice against slimes, why would you ever use it at all?

And I'm not suggesting an upgrade path, I'm suggesting that the existing weapon be changed.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 17:20
#3
Tuhui's picture
Tuhui
btw if you have had AP or

btw if you have had AP or Sentenza you know that it is 2 supper effective, 2 less than normal, 2 weak. The Cautery sword can not stay as it is if is going to upgrade. Ultimalty it would become a less usefull CIV.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 17:38
#4
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
Same thing with the CIV, but

Same thing with the CIV, but it's only a three star. Cautery really dosen't need an upgrade though. It's useless, like vitasuits. CIV is good for graveyards though, just in case you're on a gate that has enemies that ressist elemental, and then a graveyard at the end. Since CIV does normal, it's between neuteral and weak damage to everything other than zombies, and between strong and neuteral on zombies. Cautery would basicaly suck less on zombies and feinds than a nightblade. Basicaly, if you're doing a full teir run, with royal jelly at the end, then you arent too screwed if the strata before is zombie or feind. Then again, it's easier to join at the terminal anyway, and a nigtblade does more to lumbers and slime. I think the only one of these weapons that should stay is the CIV, due to graveyards, and it should be weaker to everything else, and deal more damage to zombies.
Also; bear in mind the royal jelly has different defense than regular slimes. The cautery may deal more than a nightblade to it.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 17:51
#5
Antistone
Legacy Username
Tuhui: btw if you have had

Tuhui: btw if you have had AP or Sentenza you know that it is 2 supper effective, 2 less than normal, 2 weak.

It's seems impossible to get reliable numbers, because there are a lot of variables that affect things and all the mechanics are SECRET, but the available data suggests that 50% strong and 50% weak damage should approximately cancel out and do basically the same as 100% normal. Just looking at the color of the damage when using a mixed-type weapon doesn't mean anything, the damage colors are obviously severely buggy, even the exact same weapon against the same enemy doesn't always produce the same color.

In this particular case, though, the Cautery Sword is obviously intended to be a hyper-specialized weapon, so I don't even care if split strong/weak is worse than normal. My suggestion is the same.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 17:59
#6
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
It's not hyper specialized,

It's not hyper specialized, and it wasn't meant to be, but it should. It was meant to not completely suck on anything else, only to slightly suck on everything other than slime, wheras nightblade completely sucks on zombies and feinds.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 18:07
#7
Antistone
Legacy Username
@DrLequack: Also; bear in

@DrLequack: Also; bear in mind the royal jelly has different defense than regular slimes. The cautery may deal more than a nightblade to it.

Yes, the JK is not weak to shadow, and I don't think the royal minis are either. I haven't specifically tested the Cautery Sword against them; if they count as slimes despite ignoring normal slime rules (unlike Vanaduke, who doesn't count as undead), that's STUPID and grossly misleading, but it would mean (based on stats I've seen on the wiki and forums) that the Cautery Sword would maybe do 10% more damage against them than the Nightblade. At the cost of about 20-25% less damage against all other slimes AND a little bit less against everything else in the Jelly Palace. And the comparison gets even worse if you have damage bonuses from anything else (wolver, bristling buckler, trinkets, UVs...) both because of the multiplier effect and, potentially, because of the bonus cap.

That would be an insulting trade-off even if the upgrade path wasn't a dead end. Especially since, if you're willing to choose your weapon based only on its effectiveness against the Jelly King himself, you'd be a fool not to choose one with Poison.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 18:25
#8
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
You're correct. I'm not

You're correct. I'm not saying it is balanced, I'm just pointing out that they may have had some advantage in mind. I've tested bonuses on weapons with effective damage types. seems like, on swords, an effective normal, and effective damage type will equal a normal with a very high bonus vs. selected enemy. Tested this with faust and angelic armors. It makes sense, since a full status ressist on a 5* equals a very high UV.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 19:56
#9
Antistone
Legacy Username
Sounds roughly in line with

Sounds roughly in line with the numbers I've seen in test threads, which are about 7-8% bonus per rank of increased damage (so ~30% for "very high"), and a 67% increase for damage types the target is weak against (which only applies to half the damage in your example, so about 33% overall, probably between "very high" and "ultra").

But the Cautery Sword also appears to have lower base damage. The wiki doesn't have damage numbers for any of the other 3* brandishes, but if we compare it to the Tempered Calibur (3*, 100% normal, similar attack pattern), the Cautery Sword appears to do about 12% less against most enemies and only 5% more against slimes, which is frankly ridiculous. That actually means the numbers in my previous post probably made the Cautery Sword look BETTER than it truly is.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 22:00
#10
Tuhui's picture
Tuhui
The thing is that it is +50%

The thing is that it is +50% then -50% so it works out to 75%, do you think the colors are just for show? Mini jellys are a freak of nature and react to the overall damage.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 22:18
#11
Antistone
Legacy Username
If the entire damage was

If the entire damage was multiplied by 1.5 for the weakness and then by 0.5 for the resistance, that would be 75% overall. But that would be stupid and there is no indication that it works like that.

The more sensible way, and the way it appears to work, is that the different damage types are calculated independently and then added together. So if half your damage is multiplied by 1.5 and the other half by 0.5, you're doing (1/2)*1.5 + (1/2)*0.5 = .75 +.25 = 1.0 = 100%.

Not that weakness or resistance actually equates to a 50% change, just running with your example.

As for the colors, as I said, they're clearly bugged. Sometimes the monster will appear weak to my first attack but neutral to my finisher with the same weapon, other times vice versa. The same monster that appears weak at one depth appears neutral to the same weapon at another. I've heard several reports from people who have used split damage weapons that strong+weak does approximately the damage of normal but is displayed in gray.

If you want to figure out how things work, you need to look at the actual numbers, not the colors.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 23:47
#12
zennyplus
Legacy Username
I use the Virulisk set and

I use the Virulisk set and the Cautery Sword, so my sword gets an ultra bonus against slimes. I also have a Nightblade, but it's significantly lower in heat than Cautery, so I'll have to wait a bit to test out the strengths of the two.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 05:50
#13
kraanox
Legacy Username
idea:

Cautery could get alched up to 5-star as brandishes normal damage option. how about that?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 09:30
#14
Antistone
Legacy Username
Why is it

Why is it that people think that adding more versions of a useless item is somehow a reasonable alternative to making that item actually useful?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 10:32
#15
Facejuances's picture
Facejuances
@kraanoxa normal dmg brandish

@kraanoxa normal dmg brandish is a calibur with diffrent charge.

split damage would make it very unique but i dont know how it'd be balanced.

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