Instanced arena fights. Kinda like Doom deathmatch battles?

I can see people willing to pay for that.

As for "ridiculous rare equipment", maybe it's not so much rare as expensive? Maybe the really best gear -- overkill for the monsters in the clockworks -- just needs more energy and maintenance.

I like.

No.

Someone with a falchion, or a scimitar, or a skull dagger, whichever is better for their play style, will do better; just having one does not mean that you are better. Skill plus a short sword is more than enough to defeat a good sword in unskilled hands.

The "high-end PvP" equipment might be 10% better if used skillfully; no better, and possibly worse if used badly. For that small improvement, you pay a large amount.

Think wooden cup versus stein. Now make the difference smaller (call the wooden cup +9 instead of the +7 I think it is), and make the stein much more expensive.

Rare == expensive? Not really. I can get as many skull daggers as I want; there is no rarity limit. It's not like the original days of Midnight where there was exactly 18 units of ultra-rare mineral spawned on the ocean no matter how many people you had playing.

a skilled player with a foil beats an unskilled player with a foil, which is also a pointless comparison due to the fact that equipment in __spiral knights__ (the game being discussed, did you forget which forum you are on) has numerical values that scale upwards with rarity/price; a five-star sword does measurably and empirically more damage than a three-star sword does more damage than a zero-star sword every single time it hits regardless of who's clicking the button

you can only get as many skull daggers as you want because the huge number of players on any ypp ocean at any time means that the >>> RARE MATERIALS RANDOMLY DROPPED BY BRIGANDS <<< used to make them aren't in short supply (but still command a high price on the open market because of their.. RARITY)

That's too easy, Shoebox! Let's make already-expensive weapons require the addition of multiple augmentation items that have a 0.01% drop rate to be useful!

Before anyone complains, we're being sarcastic :P

Sigh. If you are going to complain about YPP, at least learn YPP.

[quote]
you can only get as many skull daggers as you want because the huge number of players on any ypp ocean at any time means that the >>> RARE MATERIALS RANDOMLY DROPPED BY BRIGANDS <<< used to make them aren't in short supply (but still command a high price on the open market because of their.. RARITY)
[/quote]

That's just not how things (commodities) spawn in YPP.

Lets recap for a moment: YPP solved the commodity spawn issue. Have you ever played World of Warcraft? Did you notice that you need certain items for crafting, and they are either mob drops, or harvested from fixed locations that produce only so much per day, regardless of demand? Have you noticed that things which were designed to cost 5-15 silver are selling for 5-15 gold in the AH?

"Rare minerals randomly dropped by brigands" -- NO. In YPP, all minerals are produced based on demand. The higher the demand, the higher the rate at which the game produces them. What is controlled is the pricing. If, for example, Papagoite (a mineral used in one kind of high-end sword) is supposed to have a price of 1000, and people are selling it for 1200, then the game will increase the rate at which Papagoite spawns. There is no "random mob drops" controlling these.

The result? Zero inflation. Game coin supply increases, yes. But anything provided by the game's dynamic economy has no long-term inflation factor no matter how much people play.

No other MMO has solved that. (* that I know of *). I think EvE comes pretty close.

They are not expensive because they are rare.
They are expensive because that's the game design.
They are as rare and as common as people want them.
If a given item gets used in new stuff, and gets more demand, then the price goes up at first, and immediately gets a higher production rate. It's not a case of "New products, more demand, not enough supply of the raw good, the economy breaks".

[quote]a skilled player with a foil beats an unskilled player with a foil, which is also a pointless comparison due to the fact that equipment in __spiral knights__ (the game being discussed, did you forget which forum you are on) has numerical values that scale upwards with rarity/price; a five-star sword does measurably and empirically more damage than a three-star sword does more damage than a zero-star sword every single time it hits regardless of who's clicking the button[/quote]

So you are saying that in SK, player skill is meaningless, everything boils down to what equipment you have?

I haven't seen anything yet to indicate that SK has any sort of player driven economy. All I've seen so far is vendor-mob economy. Items artificially made rare? Vendors that say, "I can sell one of these per day, at a given price, no matter how many people want it, no matter how many people play on this server"? (Direct from world of warcraft, btw). Yuck.

Don't make a system that requires farming.

Where's the market place to easily trade jelly cores or iron bolts or whatever with anyone else that wants that item for their crafting? I don't mean "Auction house only". Look at YPP's economy again.

And for what it's worth, YPP's population has been going down. Nothing is breaking even as fewer people are playing, and fewer items are being spawned as the demand goes down.

So what if your regular, high-end item was available for 10,000 crowns in as much supply as people wanted, and an extra item that does 10% more was available for 50,000 crowns, and neither was hard to get besides the price? Is player skill able to account for a 10% difference in equipment quality?

If not, then say so. If equipment is the be-all, end-all, then fine. That's the game system.

For the record, there's nothing wrong with a system that says that player skill has no effect, but character skill does. My character might be a lot better at something than I am. I don't know how to use a sword very well, and I probably shake too much to aim a gun properly.

And SK does have a "How much are you used to this weapon", a training system. It's called heat.

Yay nick has spoken! xD

Your opinion doesn't count because you play WoW competitively.

Everybody knows Hello Kitty Online Island Adventure is the most hardcore MMO.

I thought I'd throw in a few ideas as someone who doesn't really like typical PvP. I don't even like 1v1 swordfighting etc in YPP - I simply don't find fighting other people relaxing or entertaining. Nothing wrong with PvP - it's just the type of game player I am, and exploration and team collaboration are much more 'my thing'.

However, I do find team PvP to be much more interesting. One of my favourites was a Team PvP on Champions Online that involved you surviving for as long as possible against an endless horde of zombies. If you died, then you joined the zombie side. That was the kind of PvP that I found truly interesting and entertaining. It was fun watching people use different skills/weapons to beat back the approaching undead, and then if you died using those same tactics against them! Sure, it's not a strict measure of one player's skill against another, and there is an element of luck involved, but I find endless agonising over builds and grinding over equipment to be dead boring and too much like work. Team PvP within an interesting scenario requires much less preparation, and was much more fun for me.

Ideas where this might be used in Spiral Knights? Well, I think the current levels, with buttons and team areas, could make some pretty neat racetracks. Eg 2-4 players start in their own individual paths, and have to run through various enemies, and beat roomfuls of creatures the quickest to reach the finish line. Racetracks could be scaled (eg with harder ones accessible from Emberlight) and times could be compared between all players. Perhaps the weekly winner could win access to a special room of treasure boxes, or a costume armor item, or something. But either way, I think racetracks would make a fun PvP that uses the current game mechanics.

I'd also like to see 'survive as long as possible as a team' type PvP levels, as I always found that kind of team collaboration fun (and let's face it, I play Dwarf Fortress, so I know all about inevitable death being Fun).

Other game mechanics that could be used for PvP - I like the levels where you are given regenerating vials/firepots to throw across a gap at enemies while trying to avoid their fire. This type of PVP could be 1v1, and could be played barehanded eg no other equipment or armor being factored in, or be used as a team event or PvE arena. I'd also like to see more areas (both within the game and in PvP) where spikes and other traps are connected to buttons, so you can shoot the button at the right moment and spike or set your opponent on fire (or potentially yourself if you time it incorrectly)

Of course, you can have these and have your traditional PvP as well, I just get tired of so many games thinking beating each other up is all their is to PvP, and unless you want to grind for equipment or worry forever about the 'best PvP build' then you may as well not bother.

Well I guess if we're going to be suggesting alternatives to calculator the video game:

I told Andrzej that you guys should check out a game called Poy Poy.

The gist of it is that it's 2~4 players, the entire map of the game is usually able to be thrown at opponents.
Powerups spawn randomly, in the form of a box. Sometimes they have bombs in them or extra health, as well as a pill that makes you run faster or one that makes you move a lot slower.
You can also pickup and throw other players.

Playing the game is better than me explaining it to you, but it's a lot of fun and it doesn't require you to headbutt maths in the groin to have 'fun'.
I'd much rather see a system similar to that instead of one where you just appear in some empty stage, find the other player and swing at the air for 20 minutes until someone dies.

As another idea for a mode, I was thinking of a game where players had to chip Crystal off a big block.
It's a game for 4~8 players.
In the centre of the stage there's a big block of crystal, which you have to chip off and collect in a little sack on your back.
The more Crystal you pick up, the slower you move (sort of like a permanent stun until you deposit the crystal).
Other players can pick you up and throw you around, as well as use their picks to knock the crystals off your back.
The game ends when there's no Crystal left or the timer counts down.
The team that collects the most wins.
Players get alloted points for participating in a wider variety of activities as opposed to just doing one thing.
Playing with more people offers better rewards for your crystals.

I think the standard model for PvP should only appear in GvG environments, since that's the only time I would see that as fun.
Gear wouldn't matter so much since it would be more about teamwork.

[quote]This is SK, so stop comparing it to YPP, we don't need 2 games very similar games.
I would rather play a good game that is completely new, and has a lot of things you wouldn't expect to be in a game than a game thats just a copy with like one new concept[/quote]

You do realize that the dungeon crawl concept is very much an old concept, right? Other than the player-driven creation of new dungeons, and the cycling of the next level down, I haven't seen anything new in Haven.

Doesn't make it bad. Just that it's not new.

@BehindCurtai
I was saying that although the type/genre is the same its a new type of game

Three Rings probably wants something new too, would you want 2+ games that are very similar
Or a couple different ones that appeal to everyone?