I recently picked up a CTR high Blitz Needle. I was using an ASI high Blitz Needle before. I immediately noticed that I wasn't able to shield-block as quick as before. The Blitz Needle with no ASI takes a split second longer to get through the reload animation at the end of a charged attack.
I didn't realize that ASI affected the reload animation at the end of a charged attack, so this got me killed during a Vanaduke run since I wasn't able to block in time.
get a swiftstrike buckler and try to run instead of shielding
Somenubcake is totally right!
ASI decreases the time between bullets and it decreases the time to bring guns in positions. It does not affect reload. This is what so many gunslingers don't know. Also thats the reason why ASI is much more important than DMG on guns. You can shield more faster, you can move faster after a shot and this is very important to do as gunslinger due having low or none resistances.
if i get a good uv on an aoutogun, maybe will craft this wep.........
I did some video analysis some time ago on the autogun (no blitz needle) with Swiftstrike and one Gunslinger piece (very high asi). I also used the values at the wiki for CTR on bombs, they are over and below 7.5% per level, so I just used that. My results dont have to be accurate, but should be enough to see a difference. Each value is in frames @60fps, or 1/60th of a second, also each value corresponds to one part of the animation that I could visually use as keyframes.
1st Volley, shield cancelled:
From point gun to shield raise
No ASI: 65
VH ASI: 55
* 3.845% speedup per asi level, but how much do you really earn for VH, 167ms.
Hold shield, wait half a second, hold charge, release shield, wait for the big shine to show up:
first value is from shield to pointing gun to charge
No ASI: 5+148
VH ASI: 5+149
* difference is probably lag, so ASI doesn't affect charge, and charge would take about 2.48 seconds
Release charge and shield cancel:
No ASI: 134
VH ASI: 116
* 3.358% speedup per asi level, you earn for VH: 300ms
ASI might be less useful on the charge because of lag errors or because the charge has more animations to it, and these probably aren't affected by ASI. So 3.845% (4%?) is probably a better value.
Now going in reverse, if VH made the animation shorter by 18 frames, and we use 16% reduction, then the animation that was shortened is 113 frames in length or so. the rest, 21 frames can't be shortened. CTR will affect 149 frames, the other 5 I assume aren't part of the charge since they are an animation of raising the gun.
Now using those values I built this table, and taking a base of CTR med... Using the base of no CTR + no ASI is not too correct as CTR med comes free at level 10.
CTR / ASI / length / % of total time / % Reduction / length s / save on charge ms / save on fire ms / effectiveness
2 / 0 / 266 / 100% / 0% / 4.43 / 367 / 0 / 100%
2 / 2 / 257 / 96.62% / 3.38% / 4.28 / 367 / 150 / 103.5%
2 / 4 / 248 / 93.23% / 6.77% / 4.13 / 367 / 300 / 107.26%
2 / 6 / 239 / 89.85% / 10.15% / 3.98 / 367 / 450 / 111.31%
4 / 0 / 244 / 91.73% / 8.27% / 4.07 / 733 / 0 / 108.85%
4 / 2 / 235 / 88.35% / 11.65% / 3.92 / 733 / 150 / 113.01%
4 / 4 / 226 / 84.96% / 15.04% / 3.77 / 733 / 300 / 117.51%
4 / 6 / 217 / 81.58% / 18.42% / 3.62 / 733 / 450 / 122.38%
6 / 0 / 221 / 83.08% / 16.92% / 3.68 / 1117 / 0 / 120.38%
6 / 2 / 212 / 79.70% / 20.30% / 3.53 / 1117 / 150 / 125.5%
6 / 4 / 203 / 76.32% / 23.68% / 3.38 / 1117 / 300 / 131.07%
6 / 6 / 194 / 72.93% / 27.07% / 3.23 / 1117 / 450 / 137.15%
You are vulnerable during charge, and even more vulnerable during your charge attack. CTR will reduce the overall time you are vulnerable by a lot more than ASI, ASI will reduce the time from charge unleash to shield, so assuming you can dodge well while charging, ASI becomes more important.
The effectiveness is only useful to show how many autoguns your setup is worth, but usually you'll spend more time dodging than attacking non stop. Now CTR VH+ASI H Blitz, with chaos set, swiftstrike and two damage bonus trinkets would max your gun :P. Multiply the effectiveness by whatever the damage bonus is and you get your total effectiveness. It is also true that due to timing sometimes some CTR would be as useful as ASI is in order to get that hit in without having to wait/block the next attack from the monster(s).
@ Giannii, nice work. Cheers!
Couldnt the arguement be made though that ASI has more inherent value then you are giving it in that it is static and effects every shot, while CTR as you have it might be a tad overvalued based on the fact that charged shots accur alot less frequently than reg?
Not to take away from any of the great work you have done, just examining this objectivly.
I have Blight Needle (not Blitz but still similar) and I can tell you that ASI is not that important for the Needle line, CTR is.
The reason for that is that Needle charge deals incredible amounts of damage.
You really should take the CTR Blitz Needle than the ASI Blitz Needle.
@Tontontat Not really, the values I listed are not definitive, if you read the beginning paragraphs I am assuming a lot of things, and only tested no asi, and vh asi, and used those results to quickly map the table on a spreadsheet. The testing took 30 mins at most, and thinking and building the spreadsheet an hour or so.
@Luke It depends, some people only want the autogun because they want to kill vanaduke with it, most gunners I've seen use the charge exclusively because it is that stronger, also possibly because if you are going to be rooted in place you better make it count. So then you have to answer a few things:
Will you only do vanaduke runs with a shivermister? if yes then you dont need ctr nor asi, since vanaduke will be frozen all the time. CTR is more important here to speed things up, but max isn't necessary.
Will you try to solo vanaduke or kill him without freeze support? if yes then you need enough asi to get out after a shot (haven't soloed him so can't tell, OP claims he needed at least some, since he gets hit with none, maybe he's missing something, maybe not), and the rest can be CTR to keep the time you are vulnerable overall to a minimum.
Will you attempt to solo vanaduke with a shivermist or freeze support of your own? in this case you need enough CTR to have the charge up as you get in position and before vana thaws, and then enough ASI so you dont get hit before you are out of there.
Other people want it for other reasons (ie. for fsc it's useful versus trojans, it can be used elsewhere as well), they have to answer their own needs. Myself, I believe it has to be a mix of both, but you have more asi sources than ctr.
@Luke It depends, some people only want the autogun because they want to kill vanaduke with it, most gunners I've seen use the charge exclusively because it is that stronger, also possibly because if you are going to be rooted in place you better make it count. So then you have to answer a few things
I was thinking this was another thread about 5 down called "asi vs ctr for guns"
I *might* actually evoke the unique snowflake choice and go with dmg vs gremlins hi-vh so that in T3 blitz's charge has a better chance of oneshottying the shielding healer with a few more guys in the group.
All in all (Vanaduke aside) I think I am going to eventually craft another needle, having played both I think they both have streignths and weaknesses, nor would I call either better at wolver or devilites so long as you have method.
Now, the real piece de resistance as mentioned before is needles charge attack. The ability to potentially burst down *anything* even with 2 healers on the scene. The Blits is the gun that provides the most on demand burst, avoiding situations that will arise with magnus where mobs will recieve heals between clips and potentially slag you down into getting nowhere if everyone else is down. That is a very strong point of the blits and what marginally pulls it ahead of Calahan ( in my humble opinion of course).
Nice work putting all that data together Gianni!
This forum needs a + Rep feature
"Couldnt the arguement be made though that ASI has more inherent value then you are giving it in that it is static and effects every shot, while CTR as you have it might be a tad overvalued based on the fact that charged shots accur alot less frequently than reg?"
With my Blitz Needle, charged shots are the only type of shots that I do.
With my Blitz Needle, charged shots are the only type of shots that I do.
.
So like when you go to charge it by pressing "action" you make sure youre not aiming at anything that could be damaged in order to make " charged shots are the only type of shots that I do."
start charging with your shield up and then let the shield down.
if your shot doesn't start charging immediately, tap the shield button again.
it's a very quick and mobile way to charge and totally opens up using blitz' charge attack.
it doesn't speed up the reload animation technically, but it does speed up the animation where you bring ur gun up and down. at least you can charge faster now