The logic behind vendors?
Fri, 10/29/2010 - 23:20
I'm trying to understand the logic behind the vendors, as seen in the tutorial zone.
If there is no logic, then just say so. As I've mentioned earlier, much of Spiral Knights seems to be the "tried and pointless tropes" of MMO's made into a playable game.
But in the tutorial zone, we have vendors offering stuff that probably half of the people going through cannot afford by the first time they find the vendors. We have vendors that are apparently making a living in the hardest to reach places -- the bottom of dungeons. Where people aren't expected to return for later visits.
We have recipe vendors that won't tell you what the recipes require or cost to operate. There's no way to know if it will be obsolete by the time you can afford it, or if it requires a drop that you missed. Heck, it might require a drop from a monster that you haven't seen yet, that comes later in the dungeon -- but after finding and killing them, you didn't get it.
There's no indication of whether these items and recipes will be offered again later. No indication of how significant or valuable these will be. No indication of whether the intention is "replay this area multiple times" (shades of Everquest), or whether the intention is "Naah, you can skip it", and if you're expected to skip it, why is it there?
Sat, 10/30/2010 - 00:01
#2
When I played the training
When I played the training grounds I had no problems buying what I was after, so I don't see why you should have any problems.
I said this before and I'll say it again: Just play the game. It sounds like you have been in the training grounds for days; adventure further already. I spent half an hour in the training grounds myself. You will have a much clearer idea of how vendors work once you actually reach Haven. Don't be afraid to ask people in-game as well, most of them will be happy to answer your questions if they can.
Play the game and see what's out there. Don't be afraid to miss anything. It's not like you can't start over if you ever happen to miss something huge (which, honestly, I don't think can happen). Just play, the large majority of the features will become clear once you do. It's also a lot more fun this way, rather than being taken by the hand through the whole process.
We will be happy to help you figure out elements you don't quite understand once you have actually started playing the game.
Sat, 10/30/2010 - 01:34
#3
A wizard did it
If you're wondering how they make a profit
And other logic facts
Then repeat to yourself "It's just a game
I should really just relax."
Recipe vendors could probably be clearer though, yeah.
Sat, 10/30/2010 - 01:35
#4
The logic Behind Curtai
I'm trying to understand the logic of BehindCurtai, as seen in the forums.
If there is no logic, then just say so. As I've mentioned earlier, much of BehindCurtai seems to be the "untried and pointless tropes" of brain farts made into a mass of words.
There's no indication of whether these posts will be offered again later. No indication of how significant or valuable these will be. No indication of whether the intention is "post crap that confuses me that everybody else understood, but still take myself as the average instead of everyone else", or whether the intention is "lolitrolu", and if you're expected to read it, why is it there?
Sat, 10/30/2010 - 01:42
#5
Congratulations, Shoebox.
Congratulations, Shoebox. Not only are you made of win and awesome, you are now the unofficial king of the forum.
Sat, 10/30/2010 - 13:24
#6
> When I played the training
> When I played the training grounds I had no problems buying what I was after, so I don't see why you should have any problems.
Well, I see a lot of upgrades that cost around 1000 crowns each.
I see a lot of recipes.
I see vendors at the bottom of the sparrow dungeon that you cannot come back to. Heck, there's one that's at the final level, that you can only reach by being a new player and spending 40 energy (ok, that's mist, but still) and a lot of time to reach.
So why are they not in the town? Why is there one in the starter area, and three in the starter dungeon, rather than all in the starter town? Why hide in the hard to access dungeon? Heck, the first dungeon is the hardest to access -- as soon as you have money you can't get back there.
> "Dungeons" have "bottoms" only if their gate didn't receive enough minerals from players, otherwise they go through to the next town or The Core. You'll always be able to come back to all the towns.
Was the training area even around when you started playing?
In YPP, I would occasionally create a new character and see what the new player starting behavior looked like; it kept changing, and I wanted to know what new players saw.
> Why are you so quick to complain about every little thing? It seems like you're not even trying to take the time to learn the ropes; this is all stuff I picked up in the first couple hours of gameplay.
I [b]AM[/b] trying to learn the ropes.
I can either play, make guesses, and assume that I am right.
Or I can ask other people.
I like to see consistent, well-thought out worlds. You know, like a metal platform out at sea as a prison for rock manipulators, rather than just letting them sit on a big pile of ... plain, ordinary ground that they could use.
I'd like to see an RPG / MMO world that makes sense. Very few do. RPG worlds have been spoofed, deconstructed, torn apart, etc, so much that at this point, if you are doing a traditional RPG world it almost has to be intentional. (If your curious, I thought that Star Wars episode 3 was a comedy because the whole setup screamed "silly" within 20 minutes. And I love Darth and Droids' take on the whole thing.)
So yea, seeing what looks like a "cheap junk starter with richer stuff later" linear system, with people talking about "Why go back to the first main town", always talking about going deeper and deeper and staying down there? (Yes, I read the forums.)
Keep something in mind. "Jita" (I hope I have that name right) wasn't intended by the folks that run EvE to be the central market place. It just turned out that way. Maybe OOO meant for Haven to be the central town, but players are putting Emberlight (or whatever) as the central hangout instead. Well, if that's where the players go, then why don't the NPC's move there as well?
===
> It sounds like you have been in the training grounds for days; adventure further already.
Sorry, I've had several timeouts for RL issues while in the sparrow dungeon. I went back through training dungeon 3 to level up some new weapons (stun gun and bombs). I've got a computer system that still has trouble on low display quality in some areas (and the passageway from training zone to haven with all the spikes and guns actually killed me because of lag).
I'm a "complete" player. I like to make sure I've checked out everything. So yes, I'll spend more time on a level to start with, and a slower computer means even more time. Add to that a 7 levels to save progress requirement on the main dungeons?
... I'm just now realizing that Spiral Knights, for me, is basically going to be 4 hours at a time of commitment! YEISH.
That's more time to commit to playing a game than a blockade. That's insane.
===
(Responding to the troll)
[quote]I'm trying to understand the logic of BehindCurtai, as seen in the forums.
If there is no logic, then just say so. As I've mentioned earlier, much of BehindCurtai seems to be the "untried and pointless tropes" of brain farts made into a mass of words.
There's no indication of whether these posts will be offered again later. No indication of how significant or valuable these will be. No indication of whether the intention is "post crap that confuses me that everybody else understood, but still take myself as the average instead of everyone else", or whether the intention is "lolitrolu", and if you're expected to read it, why is it there?[/quote]
There is logic. I'm someone who looks for a logical world. I'm someone who looks from the question, "What will a new player think"? I'm someone that hasn't been playing earlier preview builds.
I'm not untried, pointless tropes. Do you even know what that is? Have you looked at TvTropes.org? It's a wiki that basically started by documenting elements of story telling, and giving examples of how those elements are used, misused, and abused.
I'll keep posting as long as I'm interested in the game; stopping posting is giving up for me. I don't post at B!H anymore, and I love board games like that. I'll make them as valuable as I can, from the point of view of "What makes for a better game design", where "better game design" means both "better game world" and "better play experience", for some definition of better game world and better play experience.
> No indication of whether the intention is "post crap that confuses me that everybody else understood, but still take myself as the average instead of everyone else",
Alright. I will post stuff that confuses me, that I hope other people understand. That's called a question.
I will post stuff where I assume I'm as normal as the next person to play. That's called normal behavior.
Clear?
===
Now for a meta question. When this game goes open, and lots of new people arrive, and new people post stuff in the forums, how will you respond? Will you do your best to chase away the people who are asking questions and confused?
Sat, 10/30/2010 - 15:56
#7
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
Maybe players should be forced out of the tutorial area so they won't get helplessly confused by living the rest of their lives there.
You get better rewards in the next area! That is why it's taking you so long. It would be like playing World of Warcraft, creating a new character, then attempting to reach the level cap before leaving the starting area, and complaining incessantly that it's taking forever, that you aren't learning any new skills, and that the boars you keep killing aren't giving you any experience or worthwhile loot anymore.
Games should be easy for new players to understand, but a line has to be drawn somewhere, and I think you go waaaaaay beyond the average player in terms of required hand-holding.
EDIT: Just FYI, everyone on this forum was new to Spiral Knights at some point, and none of us have posted nearly as many questions as you already have.
Sat, 10/30/2010 - 17:17
#8
"Alright. I will post stuff
"Alright. I will post stuff that confuses me, that I hope other people understand. That's called a question.
"I will post stuff where I assume I'm as normal as the next person to play. That's called normal behavior.
"Clear?"
If the next person had autism, you still wouldn't be as normal as them.
Sat, 10/30/2010 - 18:51
#9
I guess that makes me the
I guess that makes me the next person then.
Sat, 10/30/2010 - 20:11
#10
*sighs and shakes head*I
*sighs and shakes head*
I give up.
After seeing this behavior continue even now, I'm done even trying to work these things out with BeyondCurtai. Congratulations, you've trolled us hard.
I implore others to do likewise (EDIT: the giving up, not the trolling, obviously :V).
The vendors seem well-placed to me, they're in every town and one halfway between each town. "Dungeons" have "bottoms" only if their gate didn't receive enough minerals from players, otherwise they go through to the next town or The Core. You'll always be able to come back to all the towns.
Why are you so quick to complain about every little thing? It seems like you're not even trying to take the time to learn the ropes; this is all stuff I picked up in the first couple hours of gameplay.
If you don't cut down on your posting and figure out to not project such an air of complacency, people will be unable to empathize with you and will only bash you when you post.