Spiral Knights - Highest DPS in the game? Musing equipment choice.

Highest DPS in the game? Musing equipment choice.

22 replies [Last post]

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 14:02

Zealousd

I currently have a CTR VHIGH Blitz Needle. At level 10, that's CTR MAX.

I also currently have one Elite Trueshot Module (+DMG GUN MED) and a Swiftstrike Buckler (+ASI HIGH).

That means on my Blitz, I currently am at.
CTR MAX
ASI HIGH
DMG MED

I'm thinking of going to whole nine yards. Going for the fastest possible downtime between charged blitz needle shots with the highest possible damage increase. For that, I'm thinking of getting another Elite Trueshot Module (+DMG MED), a Nameless Hat (+ASI MED), and a Shadowsun Slicker (+DMG LOW).

Theoretically, that should completely max my CTR, my ASI, and my DMG, right?

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 14:10

Actin

1[low] 2[medium] 3[high]

1[low] 2[medium] 3[high] 4[very high] 5[ultra] 6[maximum!]

Your ASI (+3 shield, +2 hat) and DMG (+2 trinket, +2 trinket, +1 armor) will both be at +5, only ultra.

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 14:16

Dominarr

hmmmmm

adding up these totals you've brought up, i have found you would end up with:
CTR MAX
ASI ULTRA
DMG ULTRA
so no, it would give almost max to them

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 14:29

Xerte

The only way to max your gun

The only way to max your gun stats currently is to get CTR V.high and ASI high on your UV, which is a little ridiculous to shoot for.

Logistics:

The only damage bonuses available -
Shadowsun set (Hat + Coat) is 2 Low bonuses
2 trinkets is 2 med bonuses

There are NO higher global damage bonuses for those slots, and no other slots with global damage bonus available, meaning to get max damage, you have to devote those 4 slots to get it.

This leaves you with shield and weapon for CTR and ASI. Shield gives you swiftstrike for High ASI, and level 10 heat gives you Medium CTR, leaving you with 2 CTR and 3 ASI. Therefore, your weapon needs to have 4 CTR and 3 ASI as UVs to max out everything - very high and high respectively.

Then you face the problem of only having pierce/normal defense, and penalties to poison and curse defense, so you start to want good armor UVs too...

Of course, my hat's off to anybody that pulls this off, but when you need those UVs for every single gun you carry as well to make it global, it's gonna get very expensive.

OTOH a swordsman can max a sword with any combination of 2 and 4 ASI/CTR, or using swiftstrike 1 ASI/4 CTR or 3 ASI/2 CTR, and bombers don't even need UVs to max their bonuses if they're happy with a little risk. (Volcanic Demo helm, Mad Bomber suit, 2 damage trinkets)

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 15:06

Zealousd

"adding up these totals

"adding up these totals you've brought up, i have found you would end up with:
CTR MAX
ASI ULTRA
DMG ULTRA
so no, it would give almost max to them"

Oh rats. Had a brain fart and forgot about Ultra.

Hrm.

"The only way to max your gun stats currently is to get CTR V.high and ASI high on your UV, which is a little ridiculous to shoot for."

But then I'd have to wear double Shadowsun wouldn't I? I'm already looking to be pretty much a glass cannon in FSC just wearing a Nameless hat. I'd be a paper cannon in double Shadowsun.

I wonder how many people in the game could actually have a Blitz that has both UV CTR VHIGH and ASI High or better.

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 16:43

No-Thanks

Zelda

duke doesnt last long in fsc, ur efforts would be barely worth it

if u go with shadowsun u merely need a fire uv

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 17:55

Mohandar

FTW

A paper cannon that shoots pokey needles of doooooom! :D

I'd get your back with Shivermist any day in a setup like that. As a bonus, Shadowsun resists... shadow. So with a little fire UV, you'd actually fare all right. Although I don't think there's a need to use Swiftstrike if you're shield charging (or does ASI increase post-charge attack recovery?).

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 20:45

Zealousd

"As a bonus, Shadowsun

"As a bonus, Shadowsun resists... shadow"

Wiki says that Shadowsun only has normal and piercing defense and that I'd need Deadshot for shadow resist. Is that inaccurate?

The more I think about the more I think that I'll just want to stick with my vog for the armor piece. It won't give me +DMG ULTRA but basically by wearing Shadowsun I sacrifice pretty much all my fire resist and a good chunk of ele resist for just a very small damage bonus MAX CTR, ULTRA ASI, and VHIGH DMG is still pretty beastly against Vana.

"Although I don't think there's a need to use Swiftstrike if you're shield charging (or does ASI increase post-charge attack recovery?)."

Yeah, Blitz Needle forces a reload when you do a charge shot. ASI decreases reload time. I actually shave off a full second between charges by using Swiftstrike. Once I get my Nameless, I'm potentially looking at only 2 seconds of downtime between shots. Blitz Needle takes about a full second to unload all 15 shots. So with Nameless and a second Elite Trueshot Module, I'm looking at a potential 900 DPS on Vana. (Although that'd be a bit lower in later phases of course)

"duke doesnt last long in fsc, ur efforts would be barely worth it"

My Blitz Needle is also my main weapon for FSC proper. Outside of a couple areas, it has comparable or better DPS to my Divine Avenger and it's safer too.

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 22:40

No-Thanks

Zelda

hmm, i suggest running fsc in skolver with fire uv and if there arent any issues without elemental defense, i think shadowsun be more useful than nameless

ive run with my new ASI ultra today and i didnt feel much difference on the needle compared to ASI high, only valiance seems to be alot faster

max dmg bonus and max charge would be cool i think, still a waste of effort, but what other stuff could we possibly go for at endgame? lol

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 03:26

Abathur

Hm i got 2 Elite Trueshot and

Hm i got 2 Elite Trueshot and Nameless + Justifier, in FSC i'm swiching one with a Deadshot, so i got my max dmg bonus on all undead there. Its pretty funny :D Outdamages even Polaris in some situations.
However i've spend 300'000 just for a CTR of low - i'm gonna stay with it, it seems not to matter that much.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 05:56

#10

Zealousd

"hmm, i suggest running fsc

"hmm, i suggest running fsc in skolver with fire uv"

That won't do me any good. Skolver's damage bonus only applies to swords.

Sun, 10/02/2011 - 19:47

#11

Mohandar

Oops, my bad. Shadowsun is

Oops, my bad. Shadowsun is indeed piercing, it is Deadshot that has shadow defense. Now I'm tempted to get ASI... the reload has always been the bane of my experience with Blitz.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 13:15

#12

Antistone

ASI vs. Reloads

The Gunslinger Guide on the wiki claims that ASI doesn't affect reloads.

Maybe your speed gain is from executing the attack faster, rather than the reload?

Alternately...I don't use guns much, but my vague recollection is that most guns don't force a reload after a charge attack? Maybe the "reload" after the Blitz charge is actually a part of the attack animation that just happens to LOOK like a reload. That would be an amusing little exploit. If that's true, ASI would affect reload speed after a charge but not after regular attacks, but you'd probably need a high-speed video capture to tell for sure.

I suppose it's also possible the wiki is wrong.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 17:02

#13

Zealousd

The Wiki is wrong. I have

The Wiki is wrong. I have tested it and the difference is clearly apparent even without a stop watch. There is a clear difference in how quick I reload on my Blitz with and without Swiftstrike.

I pretty much never shoot any normal shots except by accident.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:20

#14

Arctic-Fern

Stuff

With one Elite Trueshot my Blitz Charge sometimes doesn't 1hit kill an undead or gremlin in 4--maybe 3--member parties, I would likely pop a normal shot (which also lets me start a new charge) to finish the job.

And it's a good thing there's another guy who says "ASI affects reloads".
+1 Zealousd

Don't worry, no one would believe me either when I said it in another thread.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:48

#15

Speetz

Couldn't you just get a low

Couldn't you just get a low UV for the two ultra on one of your armor/shield/gun slots? Sucks to get it on your gun since it's only that weapon, but it wouldn't take too much. I get stupid lucky with UVs. (got 3 great UVs on my Vog Coat and Blackhawk AND Owlite Shield, and got CTR low on Acheron and tons of others, and I've only bought 1... this is all through crafting 0.0)

Wed, 10/05/2011 - 15:18

#16

Antistone

Armor/shield UVs do not boost

Armor/shield UVs do not boost attack stats, only defenses and status resistance.

Weapon UVs can be used for ASI and CTR, but damage UVs on weapons only apply against a single monster class; e.g. "increased damage versus constructs". Since there are six monster classes, if you want bonus damage against all of them, that's not going to work. As Xerte says, a max universal damage bonus to guns requires you dedicate armor, helm, and both trinket slots; there's no other way to get max damage bonus against all six classes with existing items.

You could potentially decide that you only use each weapon against 2 monster classes (based on its damage type) and go for UVs against those two, but that still requires 2 UVs, which makes it a lot rarer than a single UV you want. Getting +damage UVs against two specific monster classes (if you don't care about how strong the UVs are) would probably cost over 3 million crowns at Punch's shop (10 types of UVs means that a specific combination of 2 is a 1 in 45 chance if they're all equally common, 45 tries * 75k per 2-UV ticket = 3,375,000), but it's random so there's no guarantee you'd get it even if you spent that much.

And if you ALSO want a UV to speed or charge time on the same weapon (or if you want something higher than a "low" bonus), it gets a LOT more expensive.

@Zelousd: When I tested Swiftstrike Buckler with my swords, the speed increase was only around 10%. The Blitz Needle reload takes, what, somewhere around one second? I have a seriously hard time believing that you can reliably detect a ~0.1 second difference in timing just by watching; that's certainly not "clearly apparent" to most people.

Wed, 10/05/2011 - 19:07

#17

Zealousd

"@Zelousd: When I tested

"@Zelousd: When I tested Swiftstrike Buckler with my swords, the speed increase was only around 10%. The Blitz Needle reload takes, what, somewhere around one second? I have a seriously hard time believing that you can reliably detect a ~0.1 second difference in timing just by watching; that's certainly not "clearly apparent" to most people."

That's because the difference isn't around ~0.1 second. It's closer to a full second.

Trust me, I wouldn't concern myself with Swiftstrike if it didn't make a noticeable difference in this. I think it's an awful shield for most purposes. But when I'm doing FSC in a group, being a glass cannon like this has its clear advantages.

Here's video proof if you need it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfEICbdDxYw

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 12:56

#18

Antistone

Nice Video

According to the time indexes on that video, the total time to charge and fire 5 charged attacks without the swiftstrike buckler is 19 seconds (+/- 0.5), and the total time to charge and fire 5 charged attacks WITH the swiftstrike buckler is 18 seconds. Which means the combined savings on the attack AND the reload is about 0.1 - 0.3 seconds per charged attack.

You are hallucinating.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 13:16

#19

Mohandar

It makes a BIG difference

I tested the difference between no ASI and Ultra ASI using Nameless/Swiftstrike. The time reduction on reload is around 0.2-4 seconds, but it is MARKEDLY noticeable. I didn't notice a very significant difference in how long it took to get the charged shot off.

0.3 seconds is easily the difference between having to put up your shield so you don't take a mace to the face or being able to dodge blithely while Vana makes his swing. With CTR Maximum!, that's insane damage output since you don't have to shield between attacks, or wait for Vana to swing and miss before unleashing- if you were good at dodging slags, this might be the ultimate solo Vana setup.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 14:01

#20

Sypsy

1) 2 gun damage trinkets for

1) 2 gun damage trinkets for vhigh damage is the obvious minimum.
2) shadowsun optional, but not recommended. While the extra 2 +low gun damage is alluring, for reasons already mentioned, this could make for a difficult fsc run.
3) IMO, super duper reduced charge time is less important in vana since you will be moving to ensure you are in a position that will not allow vana to mace. Even with a good shiver, if you're at this side, you wouldn't want to charge attack since the unfreezing animations will allow him to turn. With this in mind, ASI is wasted on the blitz which you never normally fire.

I have a CTR med, and I have never thought "Man, I wish I had that extra half second a ctr vhigh would give me" when doing Vana. Trojans, yes.

It sounds like you've already made your mind up about what to do. Perhaps you can post a video of your BN charge speed. It would be interesting to watch you charge up and unload a BN on a slag every 2 seconds.

IMO, you're holding the charge too long. You can increase your DPS by releasing the attack button JUST before you flash yellow. The best way to time this is to watch the condensing waves around you when charging. If you're doing it right, the yellow aura should just flash, or not even. However again, this is hard to track in vana unless you practice it till it's second nature.

--
I tried my BN in the training hall both normally, then with nameless hat + swiftstrike.
I didn't use a stopwatch or anything formal, but I counted off the time it took from when I released my charge to when I could move again under both scenarios. I don't see a large difference. there is a small one, but not great enough that I would consider it better than having a proper helmet piece and shield.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 16:37

#21

Zealousd

"if you were good at dodging

"if you were good at dodging slags, this might be the ultimate solo Vana setup."

Possibly, but Swiftstrike is awful for FSC solo. Getting through level 27 without a proper shield would be very difficult, more difficult than Vana himself I'd imagine.

"IMO, you're holding the charge too long. You can increase your DPS by releasing the attack button JUST before you flash yellow. "

I know that, but I'm not good enough to hit that every time.

"According to the time indexes on that video, the total time to charge and fire 5 charged attacks without the swiftstrike buckler is 19 seconds (+/- 0.5), and the total time to charge and fire 5 charged attacks WITH the swiftstrike buckler is 18 seconds."

I count 18 and 16 myself. 0:13->0:31 and 1:02->1:18. And of course even this is not an exact science since we're dealing with fractions of seconds here. Maybe a full second was a bit of an exaggeration, but I can tell a difference.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 18:01

#22

Antistone

There's a flash indicating

There's a flash indicating that your first charge is ready to fire at 1:02. There's a flash indicating your sixth charge is ready to fire at 1:20. I suspect you're trying to count from when you begin charging, but the exact moment you begin is pretty hard to identify (and may work differently following a normal attack vs. a charged one), so you're reducing your precision. The timing should be the same no matter when you start counting, as long as you stop at the same point, so you should use an obvious visual marker, such as the flash.

I, for one, cannot tell a difference in timing simply by watching one "slow" charged attack and then one "fast" charged attack. The data suggests that there is SOME overall difference, but I don't have the faintest idea whether it's occurring entirely during the firing time or partly during the firing and partly during the reload. I probably couldn't even tell if it was due entirely to you holding the charge a split second longer before releasing it during the first trial and the attack speed made no difference whatsoever, though I don't THINK that's what happened.

But I'd say the firing burst animation lasts at least twice as long as the reload in your video (very rough estimate), so if ASI has an equal effect on both, then even with the more favorable numbers from your last post, the time saved on the reload by itself should be closer to 0.1 than to 0.2 seconds, let alone 1.0 seconds. That's literally less than the blink of an eye. And if my numbers are right, it's almost certainly less than 0.1 seconds.

If you can spot that difference without machine aid, more power to you. But I'm pretty sure you're just tricking yourself into seeing it because you expect it.

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Highest DPS in the game? Musing equipment choice.