Spiral Knights - Was CE with a player run economy a good idea?

Was CE with a player run economy a good idea?

27 replies [Last post]

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 13:54

hawkn

Legacy Username

Well, with the barrier to entry raising every day, I find it hard to classify this game as "Free to play", when it costs the amount of CR to buy 100 CE, which will leave you no money to upgrade your equipment. And the cost of CE is sure to inflate. Meaning it's not crazy to say that it will take 400 En to gather enough CR to buy 100 CE. Now, I'm no expert on economics, but I'm pretty sure people will be unwilling to pay that (for obvious reasons), but when a new character who can only run T1 enters the game, they will be unable to afford the cost of CE, which will be priced with players who run T2/T3 in mind.

Of course there will be a point at which CE will simply not sell above a certain price, and that will be dictated by how much CR you can earn by using 100 CE, but that will affect people trying to get into the game. They will either be forced to stick to their daily Mist, or use real money to buy CE. This will hinder the growth of the game, and hurt Three Rings.

My suggestion is that Three Rings locks in an exchange rate (3000 CR to 100 CE for example), which isn't player run. Therefore, everyone gets a flat price from both sides, and the economy is stabilized.

(Sorry if this has made no sense. I'm running on little sleep, and a lot of caffeine. So you can expect incomplete thoughts/sentences)

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 14:53

dukelexon

Legacy Username

Yes, it was a great idea.

Yes, it was a great idea. The game IS free to play, you just have to accept some limitations on what that means, exactly -- free to play for an hour or two a day.

If you don't like that system, check out some of the other so-called "free" MMOs out there, the ones that never let you progress beyond level 10, for example, or never let you leave the same four or five areas as a free player.

The way this system is set up, the price of CE will continue to rise on the free market until more people eventually are forced to come to a point where they can't just perpetually play the game without helping the company support itself. More people will hit that breaking point in which they'll decide to pitch in the almost laughably small amount of money that's being asked for in order to get weeks and weeks worth of CE. Then, the price will start to drop again. It follows the rules of supply and demand, just like any other commodity.

A locked exchange rate means the company will hemorrhage money -- you essentially want to make it possible for you to play as much as you like without paying a dime. Where's the incentive to actually pay for the game? What do you suggest Three Rings makes a profit off of, CRAFTING? :/

Not enough. The servers will shut off in weeks, and the game will bankrupt.

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 14:04

R_Panda

Legacy Username

You're worried over nothing.

You're worried over nothing. Players will find mats and sell them, and exchange those cr for energy. Besides, there's a reason new players are given a mist tank. People are thinking about the market too much.

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 14:06

RubyEclipse

Legacy Username

Have to agree with Duke. The

Have to agree with Duke.

The system itself a great idea and the balance will come naturally through the players. All it takes is a single lucky drop in an early tier and with a little work, a clever merchant can very easily make big enough profits to buy much more energy.

I love the system personally as it rewards you for really learning the ins and outs of the combat and the market. The better you do while running, the greater your chance of having more money or rarer finds at the end, which all eventually leads to more running in the future. It's a very cool positive feedback loop.

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 14:18

Njthug

To have players control its way better

Okay first off, after reading your post if lets say three rings locked Ce at 3k Crowns for every 100 ce. Most players will never need to buy ce for money at all. On my average runs I gain about 5k to 8k crowns easily (if I complete the run fully), and on top of that the materials I gain I can easily sell them so lets say I make about 10k a run in total for every 100ce I spend well thats 300 ce per a run easily. I dont think I would buy Ce at all. Then you bring up another argument if three rings charges too much or to little players will hate three rings and point them out to be the enemy (Both sides ce buyers and crown sellers will both hate Three Rings at a point). The system itself is pretty great during Beta I attempted to control the hold market, and it only lasted 5 hours and once I got off-line it went back to kind of the same as it was. The only thing you can control is most likely the Crowns for Ce (trade price) if you are willing to lose the 2% multiple times since well....not to get all complicated you have to buy and sell your own ce multiple times.

Summary:

Overall - I love this system its a player control system its not Three Rings who the bad guy at all its basically the Ce Buyers/Sellers.

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 14:26

Senshi

It's been done before...

Check out Three Rings other games, this isn't the first time they've used this model, and the price will eventually stabilize and players will play or not play in that environment. It does not particularly hurt Three Rings to lose 'free' players in this environment... the model depends on a certain number of them to add value to buying CE. (With enough free players, CE is expensive... and so people buying CE for cash can get a lot of crowns for it). Now, in puzzle pirates and in whirled there are some social issues that make it beneficial for them to have a fair number of free players around, but in Spiral Knights (and also in Bang! Howdy, though that may not be their most shining example even though the game was fun for awhile), well, you have a maximum 4-player game. There's really no advantage to having more players unless those players are paying real money.

So in short, when CE gets expensive enough, players will either pay real money.... or prove that they never would. If they never would, it's no loss to the company to lose those players. The 'right' number of free players for them is just enough to keep CE expensive enough to make it tough but not impossible to be a free player, encouraging more players to become paying players. Of course, the more free players that do leave the game, the more the price of CE would then drop, but then new free players will come along to take their place.

Now, as a free player, SURE, I'd love for the market to be lower, but let's not pretend that's in the company's interest. Personally, I think the spiral knights model is the best job they've done yet in creating a free-to-play but pressured-to-pay environment which should make them a fair bit of money, -if- the game has long-term appeal for enough players, but that's a different issue.

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 14:25

hawkn

Legacy Username

I guess. I was implying that

I guess. I was implying that the CE would still have to exist - people would have to sell their CE before you could buy any - but maybe the issue is that people don't know the value of materials. Sometimes selling something that's worth 2k for 300 CR, or selling something worth 200 for 3k CR.

I'm not complaining that this game sucks, if I hated it enough, I'd go back to playing my active WoW account. But I won't go play some of the other F2P crap out there.

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 14:46

Afoxi

Legacy Username

"If you don't like that

"If you don't like that system, check out some of the other so-called "free" MMOs out there, the ones that never let you progress beyond level 10, for example, or never let you leave the same four or five areas as a free player."

World of Tanks.

The only benefit to subscription is higher exp/credit payout at the end of a match, you can reach Tier 10 no problem, just keep a lower tier tank for grinding credits for maintaining your higher tier ones.

Hell, you break even most of the time at Tier 7-8 without subscription, and Tier 8-9 with it.

Having said that i bought stuff for both games already.

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 14:48

Kaybol

Legacy Username

CE = good idea

I was playing this game during the preview back when CE was 10k+ on the market. And I still thought it was a good idea.

Currently as Nj pointed out you can make 300 CE by spending 100 mist. And that's on Tier 1 and 2. The price is ridiculously low because of a bunch of players who started off with lots of CE and are selling it for dump prices. This situation is not meant to last.

Even if a run would net me 100 CE for 100 mist, for me it would still be worth it. The next day you'll have 100 mist again, and 100 CE. Three Rings are practically paying you to play this game.

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 18:01

steven2689

Legacy Username

What i think this game needs

What i think this game needs to fix the market is some sort of auction house, the main problem is its very hard and time consuming to sell all your materials and such in order to get crowns to buy more CE.

The other option is to increase the price Npc vendors pay you when you sell crap to them.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 01:28

#10

Raul

how they make money

Is not our problem, stop thinking about them and their making money.

They maintain this game for very low cost and probably has like 1 server considering all the lag. Stop using the excuse the company needs to make a profit, we already know this, we just don't care. They advertised the game as FREE TO PLAY, it goddamn better be free to play in it's ENTIRETY.

Saying your game is F2P and then charging up all this and making your players have to play is ridiculous and lying.

What they need to do is set up a cash shop with cosmetic and give us a damn auction house.

The current system is broken and NOT newbie friendly.

Cap at 4k-100CE

Be done with it.

That or start removing things that take energy.

It takes too much energy to do anything in this game and actually get anywhere.

Tier 2 takes 50 energy to craft.

ME is a joke.

Edit: Please filter your language on these forums.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 01:32

#11

Pupu

Legacy Username

Lol

It's free to play for 1-3 hours a day, deal with it.
You can play all of the content in the game without ever paying a cent, so yes, it is free to play.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 01:37

#12

Providence

Legacy Username

"Free to play" games have

"Free to play" games have never actually been totally free. DragonQuest, Runescape, Farmville. They're all "free" to play.
However, you cannot buy any of their premium content with regular game currency. You CAN do that in SK.

Just manage your time and ME correctly, and you'll move along at a pretty good pace.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 01:47

#13

Raul

F2P

I avoid F2P like a plague.

This game is nothing different from all the other F2P's out there.

Oh, and all those you just listed SUCK.

Managing your ME and time correctly will NOT allow you to move at a pretty good pace, because the damn prices is getting too high. I don't want to wait weeks to get to tier 2 and I shouldn't have to.

The game is on it's way to tanking.

See right now it's so new, but once it's been around for a bit, people will catch on to the little scheme they have going here and then cat's out of the bag.

Edit by Cronus: Please filter your language on these forums.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 01:51

#14

Providence

Legacy Username

I'm sorry you feel that way,

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I think the system is workable and so do many others. Many people find that trading materials is very lucrative, and it is possible to obtain CE from a trade if you are persuasive enough.

Once again, CE prices may not actually be this high in the long run----we are still waiting for the market to stabilize. Anything that occurs within the first couple of months needs to be attributed to growing pains, if you do not like the CE system there is not a lot that can be done for you.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 01:53

#15

Kaybol

Legacy Username

language

GodofSkype you could stop swearing, it's not allowed on this forum. Best to edit your posts before a GM gets to the task. :)

Other than that I've already made my point in this thread and I'm tired of joining in "zomg CE is overpriced" related threads, so thank you and goodbye.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 02:01

#16

Raul

Oh I like the CE

The system prevents addiction and that's good.

It also encourages paying for it, however I just won't.

But if the prices climb too high it's no longer Free to Play is it?

I'm somewhat still a newb and already I feel like I'm being cheated. I also feel like I have been lied to.

I also feel like it takes way too long to do anything.

It took me nearly a week to get to tier 2.

Also if you solo it takes soooooooo long.

I think my system of crowns-CE based by tier is pretty good, maybe not those exact, hell even ranges but I think it's a lot better than what we have now.

Which is ruining everything and driving up the prices just because they can and being unfair to the super newbies.

ON a completely different side not, this stupid forum software is the sucksorz they need to get something better.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 03:54

#17

Benamas

Legacy Username

it took me a week to get to

it took me a week to get to tier 2 too and i have 15000+ crystal energy

what's your point

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 04:22

#18

DreadGuard

Legacy Username

Don't be Delusional.

First and FOREMOST, Spiral Knights is a PRODUCT to be used in order for the company to make money, don't fool yourself into thinking you as a player are entitled to keep playing without contributing to the company that hosts this game. Spiral Knights is pretty well made for a free game that lets a player get pretty far without forking over the cash. If the players wanted play the game beyond the limits, players should fork over the cash for the extra goodies and there is NOTHING wrong with that.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 14:05

#19

iandawson0

Legacy Username

GodofSkype1: "It took me

GodofSkype1: "It took me nearly a week to get to tier 2."

Uh... there's only three tiers right now. A week is NOT very long at all. Also, this forum software is great, what's wrong with it?

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 14:48

#20

Cogni

Legacy Username

f2p

The only reason I play this game is because it is free, its not nearly as good or expansive with the addition of PvP options such as World of Warcraft to be worth paying for. However, I obviously won't be able to keep this whole, "never have to pay at all" experience with the way the in game economy is heading and will continue to head (CE prices, derp). Unless they start adding more depth to the game or do something about the CE, its not worth paying for and its certainly not free to play.

A week to get to tier 2? Ouch. You'd really have to be limited on play time. It took be about 3 days to get to tier 2 and I never payed a cent for CE. However, this is only because I enjoy and take avantage of playing the role of a merchant and really working to sell my materials- which with an Auction House would be ruined because it'd be too overflowed, unlike the effort most people don't make to find the right deals and sales without one. Even with trying as hard as I do, at this rate of increase for CE I won't be able to keep it up.

As for those that say 'well they've got to make some money what'd you expect', they shouldn't be going down the path of grabbing players with the main selling point of it being that its free. Make stronger servers and more depth to the game if you want to sell it for a price, for this game in its current state only has the free to play grab going for it.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 14:55

#21

Splinter

There is no such thing as a

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 15:57

#22

Feynt

Legacy Username

Sure, Farmville sucks, but...

Sure, Farmville sucks, but... Why is it one of the most played games online (easily one of if not THE top game on facebook)? If it sucks, but it's popular, does it still suck?

The CE being player controlled is fine. Eventually people will stop wanting to buy CE for crowns because it'll get too high. The market will stabilize because the majority of the base (newcomers and noobs who don't leave tier 1 for weeks) won't be able for afford the prices beyond a certain point. Sure I can afford paying 10k for 100 CE a couple times a day, but I won't. But because I can I'm sure others could as well, and probably would. When the majority of people can only afford the low end, the prices will drop to meet the market demand. The high end players only need so much energy to do crafting, and once you've got your set you're just running on CE to do adventuring. And 100 lets you go for quite a while. Without consistent sales to these people, as I said, the aim of the market will go back to the lower tier people.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 16:08

#23

akragster

Legacy Username

Unless you steal it, or your

Unless you steal it, or your company pays it, or...

Right, back on topic. CE prices seem semi-stable to me now. They've been fluctuating between 3200 and 3400 to sell for the last three days, so it seems to be pretty balanced. Perhaps it's all the tier 3 players not playing until new content comes out? Perhaps the number of newbies has increased? Economics is dependent on many factors, so you'd have to waste several evenings to even get the slightest idea what's happening.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 16:38

#24

Brees

Legacy Username

a week to tier 2

do you realize how short that is considering there's only 3 tiers....?

you want like less then a month of gameplay or something?

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 16:52

#25

Sketchytexas

Legacy Username

It's a relatively good idea

It's VERY easy for a newcomer to get into the game, based on the current model. Your first tank of Mist can easily get you 100 CE, without even wasting the tank you get for free. This is my third day playing and I'm already at Tier 2. Sure, it involved a lot of grinding and I've never had more than 200 CE at any given time due to crafting and the aforementioned grinding, but I'm confident that by running Tier 2 for a day or two I'll have more than enough CE to go adventuring with.

However, as someone else mentioned, the game needs more depth to be worth paying for. Sure, the PvE can last you awhile but after a bit it'll get old. I'm sure there are plans in the works for some sort of PvP (at least that seems like a logical addition at this point), but I seriously doubt the majority of people would be willing to pay for only 2 features.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 16:54

#26

Cronus

Game Master

While we welcome knights

While we welcome knights expressing their views on this subject, please do so civilly. If a word is filtered in the game, please take a moment to filter it on the forums.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 17:19

#27

Shoebox

tl;dr

How to get your free lunch

This is supposed to be an action game, a co-operative action game.
Expecting people to come here, play for an hour and then be patient while everyone else is having fun isn't exactly ideal.

Especially if a friend joins and starts playing and they can't play together because one has energy and the other doesn't.
I mean, I specifically bought CE just so a few friends and I could play together without worrying about when we should get together, not because I wanted to crash the market or play through to Tier 3 in 60 seconds.
Even though I managed to do all three at once.

Quite honestly, I don't think this game is very fair in that regard, that playing together means you all pay 4x as much energy. There's practically nothing co-operative about this game, really. It's just a real pain when you're paying three extra elevators and crafting costs and all that just because the people that want to make money, choose to use the exchange as an alternative to playing the game.

It's almost disappointing that people still prefer to do that after the full release.
But it's where the money is, because on a good day you can make 10k crowns in 30 minutes using the exchange, to get that much money playing the game you need to be doing Tier 3 runs and beating Vanaduke without dying.
And as long as those Buy and Sell prices aren't within that 4% of each other, it will still continue.

There's no price point at which people will stop raising and lowering the cost of CE, the limit is that 4% break point where nobody can profit from playing the market.
And since the only people on the market are there to make money from it, this isn't going to happen for a long time.
It only happened once or twice during the preview and even then it was only temporary.

This isn't going to get fixed by capping the market or giving people more Mist Energy, this is a problem that can only be fixed by making spending your energy a more worthwhile use for it, rather than hoarding it and using it to control the market.
Selling it should be a last ditch effort, not a necessity to save you from playing the game.

Search

Was CE with a player run economy a good idea?