Spiral Knights - SK Game Design Flaws and Solutions

SK Game Design Flaws and Solutions

18 replies [Last post]

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 12:31

Smgzor

Legacy Username

Hello,

I don't feel that this post belongs in the suggestions forum for the reason that this is all pertaining to things currently in the game. I'm not sure if any of the SK devs read this forum, but I will post in here anyway because I feel that there are certain issues that could be addressed that could improve the fun and usability of the game. I've played about 50 hours since the release of this game, so I have a pretty good grasp on some of the smaller issues that could be improved upon. The game is incredibly solid but I have found a number of design / mechanical oversights that I feel would help a lot of players. I am sorry if this belongs in the suggestion forum-- I just felt this was better suited for general discussion about the game.

I will start with my #1 fun killer:

Switch Weapons Is Buggy

I'm not sure if this has something to do with commands being registered server-side(does this happen? it seems like it)-- I don't really know much about the game, but this is incredibly annoying and would be at the top of my list of things that could make the game more enjoyable.

When in combat, if you swap weapons and quickly try to attack command, you will do one attack with the weapon you desired to switch to, then the game will swap you bback to your previous weapon if you continue to attack to try to combo. Example: Using sword, I want to quickly switch to my gun while running away to get some shots in, so I switch and immediately start shooting. I then shoot one shot of my gun, then the game forces me back on my sword, thust making me do a sword attack and moving my character forward.

When in this situation, I'm usually trying to kite the enemy, not move towards them. This is incredibly frustrating.

Lagz

There is a lot of lagspikes that sometimes makes the game unplayable, not really a big gripe there is lag in all online games, plus this being a free to play game, I can understand the occasional lag.

No Detailed Statistics

This game really lacks on giving detailed statistics about what items and unique variants and modifications do. Why is there just a slider bar for item statistics. This bar only lets me know that the item that I am using is better or worse in some aspects than others. Why is there no hard number showing how much damage my item will do at max tier, or how much damage will be reduced/absorbed by armors/shield? There's a lot of general innformation in the game, but specific stats would be helpful for players who want to make use of such a thing.

Chat--- Scrolling Functionality

Chat could really use a scroll bar, or at least i should be able to hold down my mouse click on the up arrow to scroll faster through text. Middle mouse to scroll would be the best option here probably.

Spikes "Hard Area"

There is a hard-area--- that is, the areas that you pay 3 energy to get into. The one with the spikes in 4 corners. At the very least, I don't know why destructable blocks spawn in this area. Making me clear the blocks every single time is a tedious thing that I would rather not do. Not a huge deal, but it's osmething that has stuck out in my mind.

The other part of this area that frustrates me is that the space between the spikes is just really really ridiculous. There is not enough space around the edge of this map in my personal opinion. The reason I say this is because you pretty much have to run circles around the edge of the map, which gives the mobs very few places to stand, the most annoying part about this is the enemies will naturally come across the spikes to try to get to you as they should, but the border of this map is so thin that while they are standing on the spikes, if you try to sword attack them, the animation will bring the player character onto the spikes. This makes this area really annoying to deal with. Not sure if this is the intended effect. I've ended up skipping this map type a lot of the time because of the layout, even if I can beat it, it's really annoying to deal with because of the lack of room around the edge of the map making you auto attack into spikes.

Ally Ressurection

There really needs to be a hotkey to res your allies, using the attack on your friend while simple in design, is extremely clunky. It's not fluid at all I mean to say. Either increase the ease uinsg the current mechanic, or include a hotkey to res nearest ally once you get into range. The range to ressurect could probably be increased a little bit if it had its own hotkey, because I imagine now the range is so small to prevent a person from accidentally resurrecting their friend while attacking over their body.

Need Comma in Trade Window for Crown / CE Values

The trade window could really benefit from having commas. This is just a common sense thing that occured to me because I sometimes find myself counting the zeroes to make sure. An automatic comma to make values clear would just make this simpler and nicer for everybody.

That does it for my list. I don't think I included any of my personal greviances- I felt that I included things that everyone can benefit from. I don't think many can disagree with the suggestions that I have to offer. Thanks for listening. See you in game.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 12:52

iandawson0

Legacy Username

I've never had any problems

I've never had any problems with weapon switching or lag, I like the way resurrection works now because it's so easy, and the spike danger room is fine, it's supposed to be difficult and frustrating, and the spikes help with that feeling. Clearing the blocks isn't tedious, it's just a way to make you pick between destroying the blocks while things are attacking you, or just running around in the middle.

I agree with the rest of your stuff, though. Commas would be great, and not just scrolling, but a resizable chat window would be fantastic too.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 13:15

Smgzor

Legacy Username

I clear the blocks before I

I clear the blocks before I spawn the enemies. As I stated, I don't like my attacks hurling me onto the spikes due to the lack of space. Why is that space even there if it can't be utilized? Is it just to grief me? Also the weapon switching bug on the edges of this map means sometimes I try to shoot my gun and then the sword comes out for no reason and I hurl myself onto the spikes.

The fast weapon switch auto-attack bug is 100% reproducible, and has been reproduced on other computers / accounts / connections independently.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 13:21

Nosferaziel

Legacy Username

Massive spikes area are not fun

I agree with the switching weapons bug, as a sword/bomb user it makes me mad at least once per level.

Moreover I think that in general, areas with a lot of spikes are not fun at all. Basically it transforms the fight into running around in
circle while using bombs or guns and it's not really fun. There are too many fighting areas with spikes, the fact that monsters are immune to spike damage forces the player to run around or to kite the monster somewhere else.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 13:32

machallboyd

Legacy Username

I agree about the spike room

I agree about the spike room design, for what it's worth. I figure the intent was to have players run on and off the spike floors, but since most player attacks hinder your movement in some way, it's tough to strike and retreat in time. It ends up with everyone doing laps around the edge so they don't get caught while the healing mobs camp out on the danger areas.

There was a thread about whether or not people open danger rooms, and some people said they always skip the spike room if they can see it's what's coming.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 14:57

Tumble

Legacy Username

I agree with most of your

I agree with most of your points, however I would contend with your point about danger room spikes. I think Spiral Knights would be more rewarding for you if you took the time to figure out how to overcome this challenge instead of making a suggestion to remove it. If OOO removed everything that could frustrate players, then Spiral Knights would end up being a mindless grindfest, and we wouldn't want that would we? If you find yourself auto-attacking into spikes frequently, maybe try to overcome that problem. If you don't like kiting enemies with a gun or bomb, try a different approach. Personally, I find danger rooms a lot of fun since it's more challenging, and there is so many approaches you can do. All you gotta do it figure it out for yourself.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 15:07

SirNiko

Legacy Username

Regarding spikes - perhaps

Regarding spikes - perhaps this would be better if spikes did not do damage instantaneously, but only if the player stands on them for a full second or more. This would allow players a little room for error in narrow spike rooms.

No such courtesy need be done for players who are standing on the spike floor when it protrudes.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 16:05

Smgzor

Legacy Username

I'm not asking for the spikes

I'm not asking for the spikes to be removed, just a little more breathing room to allow my auto attack animation not to throw me on the spikes. I'm fine with taking full dmg etc, it's just that the spike room is obnoxious and not fun. I can beat it, it's not a difficulty problem. It's a fun problem. The spike room is not fun because of the way it is laid out. I like rooms with spikes in it-- for example the northeast spike room in the jelly palace 2 of 3. That room has spikes but I quite like it. The spike challenge room just nneeds to be laid out in a more interesting way.

If they were to put in a more interesting room instead of that spike room, that was more challenging but better designed, I would be 100% all for it.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 18:48

Negimasonic

Maybe it would be more

Maybe it would be more interesting if enemies got damaged by spikes...I mean some of them just sit there like...hey this doesn't hurt...these sharp pointy things piercing my body... the only reason I can think of that they don't get damaged by spikes is maybe its a concession to the monsters since we don't get damaged by our own bombs (but that's really loose thinking there).

Anywho, I like most of your ideas. The comma thing isn't so important though.
As far as ally resurrection, someone suggested we just have an interact button instead. This would cover other things like picking up jars and stuff.
I HATE THE SWITCH WEAPON BUG but I never complained before now lol. It's tolerable but I don't like it.

And "no detailed statistics" I won't comment on. I know I'd probably like that kind of stuff, but they are trying to keep this a simplistic mmo, so more numbers generally aren't on the design table.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 02:07

Smgzor

Legacy Username

While I can clearly

While I can clearly understand the developers desire to keep the game simple, the bars representing damage, defense, and status resist don't really tell me anything. I'm sure they know they information, so what's keeping them from sharing it with the general playerbase? At the very least release it on the wiki if they want to keep the in game representations the same.

Status resist for example, is not really very clear on what it does. Does it reduce the status timer-- if so, by how much? Or does it stop the condition from applying all together. I'm not really sure what a "good chance" for something to proc on an item is. Low/Med/High charge reduction time-- like, is there a big difference between these, should I bother trying to roll the best UV on items? Over time, this will become clear to me, but it's just strange when info like this is kept from players.

I don't really want monsters to get damaged by spikes. It would be far too exploitable. I just want the spike room to be reworked. A similar spike room would make me just as happy as long as it was more fun as I stated above.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 06:27

#10

Kaybol

Legacy Username

They're called danger rooms

They're called danger rooms and they're designed to cramp your style. You said they don't make things more difficult for you. I'd disagree.

If the developers decide to leave them as they are (as I think they should, why not) just try to find ways to fight around them. You can time your "auto attack animation" just as the spikes are about to go down. That should give you enough time to retreat. It requires a little skill, but that's what these rooms are about.

Using fiery bombs this room is incredibly easy. And yes, there are plenty of people who do danger rooms but skip this one. Most of the other people run in circles around the border. I don't know if this was the intended effect, we just do whatever works.

As for your other suggestions: I can agree with most of them.

Switch weapons glitch confirmed, extremely annoying and sometimes confusing. Occasionally gets me killed too...

Ally resurrection works fine for me, but I've seen plenty of other people having serious difficulty with it. Standing in the exactly right spot in front of the body, waiting for the bubble to pop up to press the attack button apparently requires a certain amount of neurotism that clearly not everyone possesses.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:17

#11

Sadiekate

On the matter of bugs...

Just popping in to say that while I'm reasonably sure that the devs read this forum (they respond from time to time), it might be more efficient to re-post the weapon swap bug in the bug forum, and log it in game (press F2). That way, they can see all the info about it at once.

And while I'm here, I'll throw out that I always figured that weapon stats were shown as bars only because there are too many variables that contribute to the number of damage that is actually done when you hit something. Not saying we couldn't put something together on the wiki, but fitting it in-game when the value changes every time you go down an elevator might be tricky... though it's been requested before here: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/2527 and here: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/1804

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:17

#12

Colt

My gripe

-f I've set my bomb and I'm struck my bomb should still always go off. It currently doesn't. So I r QQ on ur interwebz.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 11:35

#13

adrian783

Legacy Username

i dont have any of these

i dont have any of these problems, the lag could be the reason for your buggy weapon switching. all the others aren't a problem to me

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 13:42

#14

Vadi

Legacy Username

*perceived flaws and possible

*perceived flaws and possible solutions to them. fify

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 14:46

#15

Eyferann

I find a bit dissapointing

I find a bit dissapointing that enviromental hazzards don't damage monsters but only the knights. I saw that some attacks that monsters do friedly damage (ex. that tree guy with slow mace attack). If hazzards could do damage to monsters you would also have to change their AI not to voluntairly walk into pits of fire,spikes,etc. This would also affect bombs with lasting aoe effects making it key for the effect to trigget that the bomb would have to explode at the right moment, or the players would have to cooperate and push monsters inside the area with attacks.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 20:46

#16

JunKx

Legacy Username

i agree with almost

i agree with almost everything
as for that danger room, i agree its completely pointless for those blocks to be around the edge making you clear them every single time..its pointless. you're obviously going to clear them, so why have them there to take up the time to begin with?

the buggy weapon switch happens to me a couple times a day and its usually when i want to shoot an explosive crate, and end up hitting it with my sword, killing a lot of my hp, which is REALLY frustrating. i doubt this has to do with lag, since you can literally make it happen any time you want...thus you can avoid it but you really need to delay attacking for a second after switching weapons, to make it so it goes smoothly.

lag happens, i can deal with it and i turn it into a positive by thinking its just because this game is getting so many new players per day

i agree about the item statistics. its a little vague right now, and where as im sure they're trying to be player/newbie friendly, its actually just confusing because it is so vague. it takes quite a bit of research and trial/error to find out exactly how things work (i personally still don't know)

spikes are annoying, but moreso i find the thorns to be the worst because they don't go away. at least when you kill something over the spike patches they will go down for you to run over and pick up items etc but i've actually had it where in big thorn patches some monsters when low on hp will run into them (usually in a corner) and basically wait to die, so you have no choice but to shoot them and they drop all their goodness in the thorns. most of the time you can shield up, walk slightly in and grab things up with enough time to get out but i've had it a couple times where the thorn patch was so big i could not avoid taking damage just to get my drops

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 07:21

#17

Smgzor

Legacy Username

spike room and others

Yes vadi, the post is an opinion. Thanks for pointing that out. Nonetheless I just want to help the game be more fun. I obviously like it enough to take the time to make a post like this.

It's nice to see other people finding these particular elements frustrating. Many people have stated that I just need to play better or whatever, but I will say again this is not an issue because of difficulty, it's about fun. I was originally concerned that the game would not be difficult enough for a person like me, but I have found it to be challenging and rewarding thus far. I just find the spike room to be not fun. I can beat it, but I do not desire to play through that section of content that the game has to offer because of the reasons I have stated in above posts. I hope I have made myself clear.

Another thing that popped into my mind. Mail has no delay I'm pretty sure, so people are having friends mail recipes up from the dungeon merchants, advertising that they themselves have all of these. I'm not sure if this is intended, and.. there's a high risk of having someone change their mind and the player getting stuck with a bad recipe that not many will want to buy, but even still, seems like a strange thing. Mail could use a 5 minute delay or so just to stop transactions like this, as well as stop other possible exploits that I won't really get into.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 10:17

#18

Fractals

Legacy Username

Spike rooms are tough, but

Spike rooms are tough, but hey, they're challenge rooms. They're challenging. Also Blackhat is a masochist.

The weapon switch though... that drives me nuts. I die all the time because I keep pulling out a bomb when I want my Kamarin to unleash some pain. Bomb animation starts instead of a sword swing, and three wolvers are splitting another knight for lunch.

The revive could be improved by a dedicated hotkey/rangefix, but as it stands I'm alright with it. It makes you slow down and say to yourself, "do I want to revive my ally by finding the exact spot to stand in, or do I want to avoid getting hit by an office chair/Apple II/book/fscking devilites!?"

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SK Game Design Flaws and Solutions