Spiral Knights - ...okay but like seriously, how the frick can you outrun a Flourish user?!

...okay but like seriously, how the frick can you outrun a Flourish user?!

34 replies [Last post]

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 08:06

Feedmefire

Hi! Before I start, it might help to know that I'm a Gunner, simply because I love the challenge of learning how to find ways around the shortcomings of a pure gunner vs. someone who uses swords. Thought context might help. Anyway,

I've been PvPing since it came out. Great stuff. Love it. I'm pretty decent at it, etc. I've learned to overcome many of the problems I was having before-- namely Gran Faust / Divine Avenger users pretty much OHKOing you upon contact. Turns out, you just need to predict their movements and play better than they do to get the kill. Not too much of a problem.

However, I simply can't find a way to do the same against a Final Flourish user (the other quickstriking swords aren't nearly as bad for some reason...). The first strike on that thing has absolutely ridiculous range, the damage is inflicted almost before the animation itself, and it's SO powerful for a sword that fast. Even with some Pierce resist (I tried a 4*Quicksilver Mail for kicks), I was still getting cleanly 2HKO'd-- and this is with the health bonus from an Ancient Helm. Worst of all, though, as that there's little to no cooldown between the time that they attack with their first strike, and the time that a Striker is able to boost again. This means that all a Striker has to do is literally Attack -> Boost -> Attack in very quick succession in order to inflict massive amounts of almost unavoidable pain. And because the range is so long, they don't need to get nearly as close to me as any other sword user to do it.

The only solution for me when I see a Flourish user is literally to run away-- and god forbid I don't have ALL of my Striker Boost capability up when I see one and a teammate isn't nearby, I'm dead. Even for sword users, it's a bit insane-- the only way to cleanly kill deal with a Flourish user is to hope and pray that you can kill them before they can kill you-- which is highly unlikely, given how stupid fast that thing is.

I'm not one to cry imbalance, but seriously-- how in the heck can you kite them? (I'm looking for advice from experienced players, btw-- I've done all they Theoryknighting (lolwut?) on this one that there is to do. I'm literally thinking about going Pure Piercing def, just because they're THAT much harder to deal with than GFs and DAs...)

Thanks!~
- Feed

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 08:42

Velcro

A few ways to beat FF/BTB

A few ways to beat FF/BTB users:

- Charge up something powerful with a quick release and smash their face when they come in to hit you.
- Use one yourself and outplay them.
- Use mist bombs so they can't hit you.
- Use AP or Sentenza (maybe) so that you can (maybe) interrupt their attacks with the fast attack rate
- Poison them so they deal less damage?
- Freeze them and prepare a charge attack to one-hit them from behind.
- Shock them and kill them if they stay around.
- Stick around a good Recon that will make them regret coming in to attack you.
- Stick with a Guardian to protect yourself.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 08:44

Debianlinux

On the topic of Balance

So, a striker (lowest hp) wielding a gun (lowest damage toughest logistics) is concerned about dealing with the fastest, longest range sword in the match coupled with the quickest moving class?

That's not imbalance (not saying you said it was), it's the epitome of balance. In some situations you are simply going to be outclassed and that's why it is a cooperative team game.

Apologies for not offering the input you were seeking. I just wanted to use the opportunity to point out how this scenario illustrates a balanced system at work.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 09:01

Njthug

Freeze them =0

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 09:06

Juances

@Debianlinux but flourish

@Debianlinux but flourish seems to deal damage before the attack animation even starts and can hit far away targets( i don't notice this with BTB even if they are the same). That's not the epitome of balance it's a WTF!?!?!.

My 'strategy' is to spam pulsar and pray for shock to interrupt him.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 09:12

Volebamus

Just want to get this out of

Just want to get this out of the way, the Flourish/Thorn Blade lines do not connect before their animations. This was covered in the past topic that argued this. At best, shield cancelling at the second swing (which the majority don't even do in PVP anyway since it loses the thrusted-auto-aim advantage of the third swing) makes the second swing seem not to ever be visible.

As a Final Flourish user myself, and also fought against FF/BTBs, you just need to let them combo out, then swing right after the 3rd combo hit gets shielded. The opening is pretty big, since most flourish/blade users don't even expect someone to counter at this time due to the button-mashing they do.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 09:23

Quandasim

pvp with piercing sword

hi i use acheron, combuster, levi and viliance in pvp (3x sword and gun)
skilled striker with piercing sword can be deadly so i use skolver set to get piercing armor. they strategy are offten: charge, quick one slash (the slash interupt your slash) and then dodge.
u can beat this guy when u slash before him.. start hold block and attack when hes charge (dont wait for his attack) its hard and u must time your attacks precisely, but i almost always beat piercing sword guys with acheron.

striker with gun is easy if he must come close to u.. so just stand on the platform and kill him. if hes dont come to platform u win, cause u get more points. when i chase strikers with guns they always run from mee..

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 09:30

Moogzor

Actually there ISNT a massive

Actually there ISNT a massive window after the third attack. Especially if you're using a slower sword than theirs, in fact what will frequently happen (if any of you play fighters and understand frame trapping its like that) is you'll start up your swing, but their "first" attack from the next set is already active and knocks you out of yours, this happens to me a lot even with vog. Oh and if they dont mindlessly spam and only use the first swing then cancel, you have no opening at all.

The speed and amount of movement on those swords is pretty ridiculous, theres things you can do to make it less so but i really dont think its smart to claim its balanced when they're clearly the most broken weapon line in lockdown atm

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 09:38

Volebamus

True, I was more using a

True, I was more using a "mirror-match" approach, but that opening is still there for medium-speed weapons. Though if you have any lag, that opening goes right out the window.

But make no mistake, I never claimed balance at all in my posts about LockDown.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 09:47

Velcro

I'm sort of curious as to how

I'm sort of curious as to how the Cutter series would do against a FF/BTB spammer. Specifically if the Cutter user (probably DVS since the poison would help a lot when they do indeed connect) continually attacks (perhaps shield canceling and starting again right before the last swing? I'm not very familiar with the cutter series) with auto-aim on. Would the FF/BTB user be able to sneak an attack in without getting hit himself and thus losing his attack? I guess he could just use the third swing but I'm not sure.

Also, does Triglav/Sudaruska have the largest range of all swords? If so maybe with enough ASI you could be able to continue FF/BTB users with the longer reach.

Though personally the best solution I've personally found is to charge up a Brandish-line sword and release it when they speed in. The Brandish-line releases the charge fairly quickly and doesn't get canceled (from my experience) and often one-hits Strikers (though I have +Max sword damage).

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 11:06

#10

Spamisalreadyinuse

"(the other quickstriking

"(the other quickstriking swords aren't nearly as bad for some reason...)"

yea, the other "quick striking swords" doesn't shoot you forward like the FF/BTB. you're basically meleeing with a range rivaling an alchemer.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 11:39

#11

Feedmefire

So, a striker (lowest hp)

"So, a striker (lowest hp) wielding a gun (lowest damage toughest logistics) is concerned about dealing with the fastest, longest range sword in the match coupled with the quickest moving class? That's not imbalance (not saying you said it was), it's the epitome of balance. In some situations you are simply going to be outclassed and that's why it is a cooperative team game.

--Valid point. I know in that matchup, I'm severely outclassed, and I acknowledge that-- I shouldn't be on par with them. My problem comes with the fact that I can't even SURVIVE them. Like, no chance. My only option is to completely run away. So in that regard, yes, it's imbalanced, not in the fact that I can't keep up with their damage.

"Use AP or Sentenza (maybe) so that you can (maybe) interrupt their attacks with the fast attack rate
Poison them so they deal less damage?"

--Let me first say that yes, bombs do work-- I'm heating a few as we speak. However, they only work if you can anticipate one coming. Once one is trying to focus you down, you WILL NOT have time to place a bomb before they get a shot or two off. It's too blistering fast. Also, Sentenza or AP don't interrupt the attack. I use a Sent in PvP-- trust me on that one :P. And, poison? How? My only options are the Venom Veiler (lol), the Biohazard (lol), or the Plague Needle, which keeps my idle far too long and will lead to my immediate death. Otherwise, swords would work, but some would be much better in that matchup.

"As a Final Flourish user myself, and also fought against FF/BTBs, you just need to let them combo out, then swing right after the 3rd combo hit gets shielded. The opening is pretty big, since most flourish/blade users don't even expect someone to counter at this time due to the button-mashing they do."

--Not that I'm criticizing your play style, but all of the best flourish users I've seen will only use their first attack when they're chasing someone. They'll boost, use it quickly, and boost again towards you-- it barely costs anything to their Striker shield and it's damn near impossible to outrun. It's a constant onslaught. If they actually are spamming the full combo, then yes, I agree-- it's much easier to deal with.

"Also, does Triglav/Sudaruska have the largest range of all swords? If so maybe with enough ASI you could be able to continue FF/BTB users with the longer reach. Though personally the best solution I've personally found is to charge up a Brandish-line sword and release it when they speed in. The Brandish-line releases the charge fairly quickly and doesn't get canceled (from my experience) and often one-hits Strikers (though I have +Max sword damage)."

-- Triglav and Suda are laughably slow compared to a Flourish. Unless you have perfect timing, you will not hit a good Flourish user-- and even then, they can get more attacks off faster than you can. Your solution does indeed work, but again, you have to know that one is coming in advance and prepare for it. What I'm talking about is when you two meet each other in the middle of the map, or are charging one of their points where THEY probably have something ready-- What can you do? I'm not saying you should be able to push a point that easily-- I'm saying that you really have to prepare for their incoming attacks, and you don't always have the luxury of time to do that.

"Just want to get this out of the way, the Flourish/Thorn Blade lines do not connect before their animations."

-- In my OP, I said "the damage is inflicted *almost* before the animation itself". I'm not saying the weapon is bugged, I'm just trying to say that the stupid thing is bonkers fast. Sorry for the confusion x.x

Also, just incase I didn't make it clear before, I'm not saying "QQ NERF FLOURISH". I'm trying to see if there's some plausible way to deal with them. If not, then, yeah, nerf Flourish. :P

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 11:46

#12

Agrimony

@above Flourish is in fact

@above Flourish is in fact overpowered so there's no need for discussion; anyone who remarks otherwise doesn't truly understand the mechanics of PvP. The animation is bugged and the damage output is additionally excessive. OOO, however, cares little for game balance because it's not a top priority to make money. First would come updates which beseech more players into buying CE, and next would come content updates to allow people to stay with the game (fighting boredom). Balance is not something that would bring them much profit; the profit that they need to continue the game. I do not state that balance will never occur: it simply will occur at an extremely slower rate. Again, it's not a priority, and a smaller game development company such as OOO MIGHT not have all of the resources to focus on all of the in-the-work updates as well as game balance.

For the time being, the only solution is to get a Barb or Flourish yourself. The same goes for everything else in the current meta-game of PvP. If it's overpowered, you should get one yourself to counter it. It's a sad truth, yes, but a truth nonetheless.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 11:46

#13

Debianlinux

Well Said

That's why I mention the TEAM aspect of the game. They deliver zero damage to you when you're under a guardian shield and if a recon is tailing them when they chase you under a guardian shield they are toast. You don't have to go toe to toe, you're the bait with your speed and your team backing you.

That said, I do empathize with your point I just think that it enforces the idea that it is supposed to be a team game.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 11:56

#14

Repartee

If you hate skolver wearers who use striker+FF/BTB.

Use a staggerstorm or Callahan. A striker that's stunned runs approximately the same speed as a normal knight. While boosting. Yeah, that's terrible for them.

And almost all ASI is lost when stun takes effect. Ever seen someone with a BTB that's stunned? It's reminiscent of a Granfaust with 0 ASI.

Projectiles generally cancel from charge attacks due to animation lag and it turns those final flourish users into big slow moving targets that your team mates tear into.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 11:59

#15

Feedmefire

"That's why I mention the

"That's why I mention the TEAM aspect of the game. They deliver zero damage to you when you're under a guardian shield and if a recon is tailing them when they chase you under a guardian shield they are toast. You don't have to go toe to toe, you're the bait with your speed and your team backing you."

I absolutely agree with you-- however, no other weapon in the game requires me to be under a Guardian's shield just to survive, and in a 2v1 scenario, the team of 2 should ALWAYS have a big advantage. Let me also just point out that in a 4v4 scenario, you'll generally only have one-- if any-- Guardian; so unless your team sticks together the whole time and leaves the opposing team free to contest the other 5 points (on larger maps), you lose =/. That's why I'm looking for advice to deal with them in a 1v1 kind of situation.

Also, @Agrimony, I totally understand-- but they also can't just blindly nerf something because a relatively small portion of the community is qqing about it. That's why I made this thread-- to discuss its use and dominance in the metagame.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 12:18

#16

Agrimony

It's not a small portion,

It's not a small portion, it's a universal fact of SK. Asking anyone will most usually produce the response and agreement that, yes, FF and barb are overpowered. It doesn't need meta-discussion. They are so simply and obnoxiously overpowered that one can understand it at first sight.

-Fixing an animation bug isn't a blind nerf, in addition. It's a bugfix.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 12:21

#17

Richy

You can't outrun a flourish.

You can't outrun a flourish. The flourish outruns you.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 13:00

#18

Volebamus

Feedmefire, you're right. I

Feedmefire, you're right. I meant the advice to cover most and general Flourish users, but not the good ones. Against those, the advice against those has to be physically taught.

Also, let me say this again because it was repeated:

Flourish animations are not bugged.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 13:22

#19

Zxeroadvent

though FF can be very annoying...

i tend to preform better with furious flamberge in most cases. the battle is usually...

me stabbing them once, dash around then by the second strike, they are usually on fire.
i tend to have more issues personally with BTB, because I've too noticed that the range is stupidly large. this makes it seem like the blade is using the force or something... I'm hoping my sunset duster will give me better resistance against it though.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 15:11

#20

Sypsy

*GASP* You gave away my

*GASP* You gave away my strategy of Attack -> Boost -> Attack
Or, against a shielded guardian: Attack -> Circle --> Attack

And with vhigh asi & dmg --> delicious delicious pokage.

Why you gotta do that???

I find a lower ping is the best way to counter it. I find I constantly lose to people of the same build and skill who have lower ping. (Or is it higher? whichever gives them the ability to hit me further than I can hit them)

As far as countering:

- Stay far away. Use your polaris strategically.
- If they aren't full skolver --> Shiver time!
- If they are full skolver --> Wish you had a volatic
- If you're recon --> invisible and hope they lose interest. Go CAP somewhere else.
- If you're striker --> Run away. You should be able to move away before they can hit you.
- Spin madly, confusing them from understanding what your'e going to do. This works best if you have a GF/DA since they'll have no idea where you may swing. (I have never tried this)
- Swing in one direction with a GF/DA, baiting them to attack your back, then swing the other way --> This still owns me and I only adjust when I know someone does this
- Wait for them to use up their booster, then hit them.
- Wait for support and find some meaningful way to make him use their booster up.
- Wait for your flourish vog/skolver striker teammate to come out and poke him to death.

Also, I have full skolver, a full damage FF/BTB will 2HKO me too (or was it 3, but still, very few.)

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 15:22

#21

Velcro

"- Spin madly, confusing them

"- Spin madly, confusing them from understanding what your'e going to do. This works best if you have a GF/DA since they'll have no idea where you may swing. (I have never tried this)"

I actually do this while having my Glacius charged. It's quite fun and unpredictable for enemies. Then I just randomly release (since I have a CTR high UV) and sometimes I catch me Recons or very rarely a Striker will run into the explosions and get frozen. Then if they're frozen they're almost certainly dead.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 15:59

#22

Cobriliant

I told you swords were

I told you swords were better. :P

Hahaha but anyways feed as a striker flourish player who's kicked your ass plenty of times :D I'd suggest not going tank but playing around with dmg/asi gunner armor (whatever the names of it are) and strong single shot like Callahan. And then going recon instead of your traditional annoying striker :P works wonder still have to take care of range but the one powerful shot from are and then back up. Rinse/repeat. It's annoying for strikers since you can't cap a point with a gunner letting lose but at re same time running of to try and play around with a recon is time consuming with mixed results. To summarize: waste striker time and delay capture of points. Hard to find/kill if you get used to recon/ decent dps output

When you figure this out chat me up and I'll still whoop your ass ;D

-- Cobriliant

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:22

#23

Sypsy

^ Recon + Nameless hat (ASI

Recon + Nameless hat (ASI Med) + Shadowsun slicker (Dmg Low) + 2x gun damage trinkets + Callahan = Pretty fun --> Bonus points if you get a stun off.

I wouldn't say it's a pure counter, but it's a different style of play that could catch your typical FF/BTB dashing striker off guard.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 20:07

#24

Feedmefire

"Spin madly, confusing them

"Spin madly, confusing them from understanding what your'e going to do. This works best if you have a GF/DA since they'll have no idea where you may swing. (I have never tried this)"

Lmao! Thank you for making me smile :D

@Sypsy: Callahan's an interesting idea-- but unless you get that lucky Stun off, it still doesn't solve the problem =/

@Co: Swords ARE better at damaging. I like being the little annoying turd that harasses you constantly, though-- being a jerk is much more my style xD.

...ps. you ded bro. i go pewpew u die.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 02:42

#25

Fallout

Ew Flourish users like Sypsy.

Running never works
I have been gunning a lot lately in PvP an it seems valiance helps with its knockback (requiring you actually hit them, which shouldn't be to hard with full bars) as it puts them slightly off track, otherwise i sprint to a choke point let go of a couple of polaris rounds and sprint off hoping the bullets deter them coming after me.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 04:02

#26

Twiddle

Three ways of doing it: 1)

Three ways of doing it:

1) Use a flourish type weapon, predict where they will strike and counter-attack before they get there. I can imagine this is very, very hard if you have lag of any kind.
2) Use a flourish type weapon, predict where they will strike and sidestep. They have a small opening after the second attack. If they blow their second attack then unload a two-hit combo from behind them. Then, immediately boost away. Again, this is difficult with lag of any kind.
3) Bombs. Specifically Shock or Stun bombs.

You're a gunner? Make sure you always have a someone with you. Let your teammate tank. Pure gunners should never be alone in lockdown.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 04:29

#27

Krazik

in soviet russia....

Flourish finals you!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 06:30

#28

Negimasonic

You don't even need to outrun

You don't even need to outrun a flourish user, if you die, you get a free teleport far far away where they can't hurt you anymore :D

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:04

#29

Feedmefire

@Twiddle: Yeah, I've been

@Twiddle: Yeah, I've been working on the Haze Bomb as of recently. Figured Skolver makes Shivermist more useless (plus, the freeze is only good for one hit), and Shock UVs are getting much more common given the popularity of the Polaris and the Shock Bomb, whatever it's called.

@Negimasonic & Krazik: Lmao!

And wait, Auto-Target works in PvP?! Who the heck at 3O made that decision?! -.-

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:13

#30

Byrnius

You were outmatched.

In my grasp of the situation, it seems you and your loadouts are a poor matchup against flourish users. Think of it as a scissors against rock scenario; you can't win because everything about these people were made to kill you. You're basically a Flourish user with pure Piercing damage trying to take on a Jelly Danger Room. You might win with superb strategy/skill, but it won't be easy without help.

In other words, Flourish Strikers> Gunslingers such as yourself.

You're going to need some kind of Freeze Driver or what have you, try to him once, freeze him, and unload your best guns on him, or count on someone's help to keep that guy distracted or status effected.

If not, you're definitely going to need to change your game plan if you're going to fight Flourish users.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:20

#31

Snorunt

...

Wait, from what I've been pulling from this, you have to gear yourself out specifically to avoid and/or compete with Flourish users. Doesn't that already suggest that the weapon is broken? I mean, you don't have to do that with other weapons. DA/GF, you dodge. Other weapons, you take the combo advantage. Flourish/Barbs? You need to have specific items and such. That strikes me as a little OP.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:34

#32

Orangeo

Psh, it's more fun to kill

Psh, it's more fun to kill nearly incapacitated people. Freeze them with shiver, Charge up a faust. If they don't defend shadow, just use the recon effect.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:36

#33

Richy

Wait, from what I've been

No actually. This is the point of having all the elements. Normal/Pierce/Elemental/Shadow. You fight people against their weaknesses. You see a team full of Vog? Pull out a flourish(I absolutely love fighting Vogs). It is about what elements you want to protect against most and what your going to leave open.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:41

#34

Feedmefire

"Wait, from what I've been

"Wait, from what I've been pulling from this, you have to gear yourself out specifically to avoid and/or compete with Flourish users. Doesn't that already suggest that the weapon is broken? I mean, you don't have to do that with other weapons. DA/GF, you dodge. Other weapons, you take the combo advantage. Flourish/Barbs? You need to have specific items and such. That strikes me as a little OP."

Seconded. Right now, I'm making an Anti-Flourish set (almost pure Pierce) because it's the only weapon that will kill me nearly every time. It shows in the stats, too-- EVERY top Swordsman runs a Flourish. No questions asked.

@Richy: Fine-- but even with pure pierce resistance, a Flourish will wreck you sideways and make you its b. I'm not saying I should be able to counter everything, but I shouldn't be hard countered by a single weapon, either.

Search

...okay but like seriously, how the frick can you outrun a Flourish user?!