Spiral Knights - A suggestion for the "Energy Issue"

A suggestion for the "Energy Issue"

42 replies [Last post]

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 02:58

Belanis

Legacy Username

------------ Energy Issue:

There's quite obviously 2 types of people replying this kind of topics:

those who bough CE and wanna justify their purchase and also want the most crowns out of it
those who haven't and are struggling to do anything in the game.

Obviously, most of those who bought CE are heavily biased. We all know how it works: People who bought CE will say the system is fine regardless simply because right now, it suits them. However because they bought their CE, they don't really have a grasp of what is talked about in these topics and have no place giving their biased opinion.

Just know that, our goal is NOT to devalorize your CE, it's just to make the game more playable and noob friendly.

But by all means, feel free to praise the current system with not a single logical point behind your reasoning, you'll just be ignored.

Matter of fact is, this system is terrible for the following reasons:

Right now, new players can barely play past their myst energy. I know that because 3 people I know already have quit playing, 2 more are considering quitting. As the cost of CE rises the game will become increasingly and intensively more unfriendly to new players.
Someone has to constantly buy CE for there to b CE in the game, even if it's not you.
Cost of CE is player controlled. Shouldn't even have to explain why this is bad. But let's say the majority of people aren't smart/sane, and that easily reflects on the economy.

------------ The usual points people make to defend the system:

- There will b people saying that in the closed beta, it was worse. Yes, it was. did that make the game good? of course not. And the fact we're getting closer to the those standards should b a good enough hint.

During the beta, if you didn't buy CE, you would play less than a hour until you ran out of myst energy and stop playing. Which is fine for lame facebook games, but TERRIBLE for a MMO.

- I've read replies such as "If you don't like it Buy CE with real money, otherwise use your myst tank and play the next day".

I'd like to thank those people to make our points for us: CE is essential to play the game like an actual MMO. And without energy you cannot play at all.

I have to say, I've played a few free MMOs, but I've never seen one that limits your ability to actually play the game.

To play this game like a normal MMO using only your own energy, you have to pay as much if not more than you would for a Pay 2 Play MMO, like World of Warcraft.

That's ignoring the problems this game has such as assuming people with the same IP as the same person and forces them to use each others energy, items that aren't meant to bind to u that bind anyway, the lag management, screen freezing, inability to make a party, how making more than 1 character is not only pointless but also counter productive, lack of auction house, constantly getting separated from friends into different havens after a run, etc.

- The "It costs money to run servers" excuse isn't valid here either, there are literally hundreds of people/companies running servers for games that will not charge the player a cent for it. This has never been a good point in free games, don't bother.

------------ Solutions?:

First of all, let's remember that, CE is not only used for adventuring, it's a vital part of crafting, so it'd b still a precious resource even if adventuring was free. Remember that having a lot of CE to craft would mean bigger chances to get a unique variant.

With all of this said, I'm not gonna pretend i have the wisdom to come up with a better system right off the bat. Making energy easier to come by for non paying player wouldn't make it worthless to paying players though, it still requires a lot of energy to craft and 4 or 5 star equips cannot be crafted with myst energy alone.

Here's a few suggestions I've heard to solve this energy system:

Lower elevator cost to 5 (lowering it to 2 like in the beta would b extreme)
implement a feature to "refill your myst energy" for 1000 crowns or so (myst tank recharge shop, like the ones you get for milestones), since it's not sellable/tradeable, can't be exploited.
Have certain creatures drop CE in dungeons.
increase myst energy limit to 200 and make it regen in 24 hours still
Divide the cost of elevators, by all players in the party, rounded up or down. This would have the side effect to encourage full parties. (besides those elevators say they need 10 energy to run, not 40)

Obviously, we're not suggesting that ALL of them are implemented, just 1, maybe 2 at most.

Optionally, with any of these conditions, to make buying costumers feel happy about their purchased CE, make crafting work with CE only.

If you REALLY wanna help the company make money off this game and/or get something more for the money you spent on it, have them open a shop ingame where a NPC sells boss tokens for massive amounts of CE.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 03:40

Archon

I agree wholeheartedly with

I agree wholeheartedly with the majority of Belanis's post. I can tell everyone here that this is such a unique and nice gaming going on here, dont make it become unplayable for the average person as it is already becoming that, slowly and eventually.

Games like this are meant to be a pleasant and fun release from reality, from the real world with its high cost of living and daily struggle to get by, and in my downtime Id like to relax playing a fun game like this for a few hours. Please dont turn this game into a "cost of living" simulator like the BS that is real life is...beacause from what I see everyday ingame, this game is eventually becoming just that!

And please rich kids before you nag and tell me to buy CE, Ive got my college course to pay for, this place I'm renting and the other bills on top of that, lets not forget the car + fuel it needs...I dont have the option to beg my parents for a handful of cash...

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 03:44

Cromendi

Huh..... Not gonna tell you

Huh..... Not gonna tell you to buy CE or anything here.

Just wanna ask.

Do you tell the kid at the kfc counter to give you free food or give him a dime for $5 worth or stuff and tell him to get the remaining amount from strangers?

Let's see how much flame I'm gonna get.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 04:04

Belanis

Legacy Username

Depends, was the food

Depends, was the food advertised as free?

I know what you were going for, but that was a weird analogy.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 06:52

Panarchy

Legacy Username

2 types of people?

'There's quite obviously 2 types of people replying this kind of topics:

* those who bough CE and wanna justify their purchase and also want the most crowns out of it
* those who haven't and are struggling to do anything in the game.'

I haven't spent any money on CE, and I'm not struggling. I may not be in tier 3 yet, but I honestly don't mind. And I find it fairly easy, solo running tier 1, to make back twice or more of the CE I might spend on the way. I really don't think that (especially with the current price for 100 CE sitting at a little over 3k crowns) there is a problem here! I've noticed that levels after the terminal tend to give more crowns than before, so I can imagine if people are running to terminal, and then going back to haven, they might have more problems.

Admittedly when I was starting out crystal energy was around 1.7-2k crowns per 100, but that's really not so large a difference (the cost of a 2* recipe I suppose..). When CE costs 5-6k+ per 100, I might agree that this would be hard on new players. People will have to live off mist energy alone and live with the fact that their play time is limited to 1-2hrs a day (you don't have to spend a whole day playing the same game you know, admittedly it is tempting with this one!).

A solution I thought of (however I can think of a few problems with it already) would be to have a single free gate, which only goes as far as tier 1, but remove (or maybe just lower) mist energy. This way if you really needed energy for crafting, you could farm the free gate and buy some from the player market. This would also result in devaluation of tier 1 mats though I guess (farming the free gate -> more mats into the economy).

I like the idea of reducing tier 1 gates to costing 5 energy - this would definitely be good to new players, although I think later (tier 2 onwards) lifts should still cost 10 energy. This means that once players progress, they will find their mist disappearing more quickly. One problem with this would be a large difference between crowns per energy in tier 1 to tier 2, so perhaps it would be better to reduce tier 2 costs slightly in this case then. But whatever, I'm rambling now.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:40

Belanis

Legacy Username

I will admit that currently,

I will admit that currently, the cost of CE isn't unbearable, however, in a little over a week, the cost has almost tripled already.

CE will almost certainly reach a point that will make it highly unacessible to new players, as well as some existing ones.That's what i wouldn't like to see happening.

"People will have to live off mist energy alone and live with the fact that their play time is limited to 1-2hrs a day (you don't have to spend a whole day playing the same game you know, admittedly it is tempting with this one!)."

Then it's not a MMO, it's a lame facebook game. again, you're making my point.

Sure there's casual players, but people who play things casually tend to not care what they're playing anyway. What I'm talking about is people who try this game, like it and would spend 5+ hours on it daily, and don't cause the game isn't letting them.

A system where paying players would just have access to better equipment would easily b preferable to that.

Something u play 1 hour or so a day is a FPS, a puzzle game, a fighting game, etc. for an MMO, that's a TINY amount of time.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:47

Waffle

Legacy Username

People seem to be defending

People seem to be defending the fact that they've gotten through now that it's 'hard' to get CE or simply that they have managed and so should everyone else.

I started playing and was rather shocked that you had to spend cash in order to progress, that was before I had read anything about the game more than having a buddy simply link me the page and say "play it!" so I only have myself to blame for not doing my research.

Now, I was new and had to spend 1700ish CR on 100 CE which I thought was expensive, as a 'noob' you won't know how to make the most out of your temp energy. So a argument saying it's possible to survive by only using the temp energy is invalid at this point.

The game is advertised as "free to play" with the possibilty of spending IRL cash to help the developers and pay them for their work, while getting something back for it, precious crystal energy.
Now, free to play should be free to play, not free to play for 1-2 hours then idle for the rest of the time while your tank refills.
This isn't a "free to play" model, it's pretty much worse than a trial version of something where you're limited to days or either hours, possibly levels as some people mentioned in other threads.

People may say it's manageable or easy to get CR for CE etc, even if prices rise up to 10k+, however offering a way to make it easier for new people will hardly make the game worse.
If the prices really rise that high, hardly anyone new to the game will stick around for 3-4 days of T1 farming to get your first 100 CE, then to spend it to farm for another 3-4 days or even more, since prices will probably have risen from 10k to 15k by the time they get their first 100 CE.

With energy prices scaled by players, the game will get new people the first few weeks, in the end the only ones left will be those who either managed with CR for CE or those who bought it with cash, because face it, "I've spent my money I might aswell play" tends to keep people around.
It's pretty much going to be "The Rich VS The Poor" in the long run.

There are multiple solutions to this, great ones posted in the first post of this thread.

On a personal opinion / side note, I've got no issue with games that let people skip ahead by spending money, as long as I can achieve the same thing by spending time on it, as of now, the more money you spend the more you can play, because a new player will not manage to get 3200 crowns on their first T1 run.
Unlike some games where the size of your wallet will determine your power.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 08:09

Icee

Elevators cost 3 cents each

This is a free to play model no matter how many claims are made to the contrary. It's not a free to play as much as you want without making sacrifices model, but no game is. Unlike most free games, in Spiral Knights you get to play for an hour a day with no sacrifices and you can unlock all of the other content over time by buying the paid currency from other people. You can use any gear and play any level without ever paying a dime, but of course you'll have to wait longer to do it than if you paid, which is fair. Almost all free to play games have paid-only content, whether special gear or special levels. In Spiral Knights, there are no such restrictions. Everyone can access everything whether or not they pay; the only limit is how quickly they can do so. I think that's a pretty wonderful system.

Furthermore, the prices when you do decide to pay are totally fair and reasonable, which isn't something I can say about any other micropayment game. For $10 in most games, you get a couple of strange-colored sheep or a single new outfit. In Spiral Knights, you get dozens of hours of gameplay plus a few sets of equipment. Assuming people buy the $10 package of crystal energy, elevators cost less than 3 cents each. That's right - the OP is complaining about something that costs less than 3 cents. An extra weapon slot is about 40 cents per month. A piece of 4* equipment is about 50 cents and you can use it forever. There isn't anything in this game that costs too much.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 08:31

Belanis

Legacy Username

I don't wanna sound like a

I don't wanna sound like a jerk, but i disagree with most of what you've said.

I play other free MMOs where non paying players can get what paying players can, with the added bonus that you can play all day on top of it too.

As for prices, i seen way nicer ones for way more stuff than in Spiral knights. Don't go comparing it to other MMOs, cause it's gonna lose out for the simple fact other MMOs won't try to limit how much u play them and don't have the many issues spiral knights currently has.

By trying to compare it to other MMOs you're basically saying "well it's bad, but there's worse" and thus admitting that there's issues, which really isn't flattering for spiral knights at all.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 08:48

Shockfrost

Legacy Username

Overreacting.

Uh, I just wanna go on record saying that, OOO is not really being unfair with their part in Energy costs.

A floor is 10 Energy or roughly 150 minutes - 2.5 hours.

A good floor takes 15 minutes to clear.

So the scale is currently "10 times" - you spend ten times the amount relaxing for the amount maxing.
What does this mean? Maybe 22 hours down, equals 2 hours up and running. If you want to play more than 2 hours, that's something else entirely. As you adventure in Tier1, if you don't revive like a beast, you'll make maybe 2500-4500 Crowns from 6 floors of action. If you play 3 hours, you should run dry on energy having done just barely 2 full Tier 1 runs (12 floors)

These are all real glossy estimates. Now at the most inefficient deal (currently 75 cents for 100 CE) you pay 0.75 for energy that translates into 3 hours game time. At 800 CE, you've bought roughly a whole day of grinding, and this lets you build up a fund. You can also pay your way into decent gear and pound up the ranks. But it won't buy you the skills you need to get the most from that gear, like playing will.

Anything else - being mad at the CE market - is folly. Players dictate those prices, so grin and bear it.
As for being mad at the AMOUNT of CE you get for what you pay... I think 3 hours is not so bad for 3 quarters. If only a quarter lasted an hour at the arcade. (nowadays it won't even start most 4-minute games on its own)

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:05

#10

Icee

But it isn't bad.

I did not say "It's bad, but there's worse." I said it's great. You say you get more for less from other MMOs, but you offer no examples and quite frankly I don't believe you because I've never seen anything priced so fairly that used a micropayment system. I realize that subscriptions - a completely different payment system and one that eliminates the completely-free-to-play possibility - are generally a good deal for the truly hard-core gamers who spend 4+ hours playing per day, but most people can't/won't/don't play that much.

I get 10 free elevator rides per day and then pay 2.5 cents per elevator. 2.5 cents! I can go on 10 levels for a quarter, playing the game for almost 2 hours for 25 cents. For the same quarter I can do 1/5th of a load of laundry, park my car for 15 minutes, or buy 1/4th of a candy bar from the vending machine. A stick of gum is 10 cents, and its flavor doesn't last as long as 4 levels of SK.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:18

#11

Gator

Legacy Username

Wall of text

Three Rings needs to change things up.

Icee - It'll be impossible for new players to get very far. Crowns for recipes, then crowns for Alchemy, then Energy for Alchemy and playing. So what is that player going to do? That player will also have to spend an entire day just to make one item. Yeah, Alchemy day. Not even, since it's just one item made. Maybe two, if they're lucky. An extra weapon slot is about a dollar-twenty. If CE reaches the same price point as a 4* recipe, what's the point of playing? Oh, and it's more expensive for people overseas. You're limiting yourself to a standard currency.

I use ME and CE, and, as CE prices increase, things are only get more and more difficult. I want to enjoy it, not plan out my energy usage. I can't get to T3 because of it being so costly. Even if I was a free user, I'd still have the same troubles. Hell, I used up the CE I bought ages ago, I'm living off of what I bought with crowns.

-Panarchy - They had the firefly gate, but the price was the same as normal gates. It was nice, having a short dungeon. We need more elevator varieties. Higher cost means slightly higher rewards (not game-breaking high, but above average, fair, etc, etc). With CE constantly rising, it'll eventually be impossible for non-CE users/newbies. People trying to validate it are forgetting about Alchemy. by 3* and 4*, the newb is screwed. Most will definitely quit. If you like the game, that's good, but would everyone really be that patient and dedicated? Wasn't the selling point to hop on and join your friends in an adventure? People who group up, can manage, if they have other things to do, but people who solo are usually forever doomed.
I'd love it if they had a T2 gate like that. It makes it easier to recipe hunt.

10 CE per elevator is just too high. And what about server reboots? Half of the time the reboots had bad timing for me. My friend and I are barely surviving with things as is, and if we wanted a full T1 to T2 run, I'd have to burn CE, to cover his costs. At least refill ME when you reboot.

Plus, after the halfway point, things are worth it. D1-3, and D9-D13 are pointless. Since D9-D13 is in T2, it's more worth it than D1-D3. At least let 2 star items drop in D1-D3... and let 3 stars drop in D9-D13.

1 star is 10
2 star is 50 [Requirement, 4 2star items for the next Tier. Requirement : 200 CE]
3 star is 100 [Necessity for 4 star items. Requirement : 400 CE]
4 star is 200 [Requirement, 4 4star items for the next Tier. Requirement : 800 CE]
5 star is 300
So, T3 costs 5 bucks. That's just in CE, though.

What is ignored : The crowns needed for everything (1k per 2* recipe, 5.5k per 3* recipe, 15k per 4* recipe)
4k, 22k, 60k. Materials, prices on some are..a variable. Mats not applied, and I tend to like to find my own, not spend a crapload on overpriced things. Then, there's the price of Alchemy.

2* - 400 [x4] 1,200
3* - 1000 [x4] [4,000]
4* - 2500 [x4] [10,000]

Grand total of : 15,200 + 86,000 = 101,200 crowns. Oh, and HOURS of playing. Also ignored - elevator costs. So to actually enjoy the game, newbs will spend days playing through T1 just to get the money for T2, only to never make it to T3. They'll have quit by then. You really think people would be attached if they're stuck using 2 days just to craft T2 items? Even then, they'd have to go through it again just to get some clearance.

CE may be cheap, but for new people starting and not able to pay, things will be at a standstill within the first few days. People who started free/are free, are forgetting, they got it easy with low/cheap CE. Put yourself in the starter's shoes. If someone's going to make this out to be crying, I'd only be able to say, oh the irony. What a coincidence!

I was fine when the CE prices were at 1k~2k, and it's decent at 3k, but it's going to get higher and higher as more and more demand it. It'd be nice if we had an automatically generated amount of CE that we can buy at a low price. Like, every 12 hours, 20 sets of 100 CE will be on sale, set by the system, at a set price. It's a double edged sword, as there are the usual greedy @(*%@$% who'd abuse it.

Those surge-5 energy weekends were nice, but we need something more, something special. Like, on weekends, elevators cost 7 CE, 10 floors for the price of 7 energy! We need some events/events that happen regularly. Sure, it hasn't been long, but some games love to start with events.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:44

#12

Icee

New Players Get Mist, Too

For their first 100 mist, a new player can play through the tutorial, get to Haven, play to the first terminal (i.e. complete all of the objectives), buy a couple of 1* recipes and craft them. That's what I did my first day and I was quite pleased with my shiny new items. I came back the next day and played with my 100 mist and used one of my mist tanks earned from the objectives so I could craft some more items. I came back the next day, played with my 100 mist, decided I wanted to play more and bought some CE with my credit card. That's how it works. You get some stuff for free and then you pay if you want more. You're not supposed to easily get everything for free all at once right in the beginning. If you want to get everything for free, it's going to take a lot of time. If you want to get everything right now, it's going to take a lot of money. If you want to be somewhere in the middle, you'll have to spend some money and spend some time playing.

The prices in terms of cash are reasonable, as I described above, and the energy exchange, by virtue of being player controlled, is fair. If OOO fixed prices low, it would be unfair to the paying customers who should be able to sell their CE at a fair market price. If they fixed prices high, it would be unfair to those who want a fair rate of return on their time. By letting the market be, OOO lets the players decide what their time and their money is worth in this game. That's how it should be.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:52

#13

Belanis

Legacy Username

Icee, I can read what u

Icee, I can read what u typed, but you certainly didn't make the game sound great.

As i said in the opening post, if you're gonna reply "just buy energy", don't bother, you're making my point.

But if u really wanna do math, let's say i do 60 levels a day, which i can easily do

it's 2.5 x 60 = 150 cents a day

there's 30 days in a month

30 x 150 = 4500 cents a month, or 45 dollars

For that much money, you could have 2 WoW subscriptions and spare change.

Now, how is this cheap?

You want an example? alright, Dynasty warriors online. I played for a month more than 5 hours a day. has a auction house, doesn't freeze screen, allows u to form parties, craft, embue weapons with elemental damage allows users with the same IP to play, even dye clothing.

and that cost me absolutely nothing.

Again, if you just want to argue without having any valid points, don't bother posting

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 10:01

#14

Belanis

Legacy Username

Shockfrost , that's wonderful

Shockfrost , that's wonderful and all, now if you had bothering reading:

"I will admit that currently, the cost of CE isn't unbearable, however, in a little over a week, the cost has almost tripled already.

CE will almost certainly reach a point that will make it highly unacessible to new players, as well as some existing ones.That's what i wouldn't like to see happening."

also, 15 mins per floor? good lord you're slow.

I'm pretty sure most people are a lil faster than your are.

Try to make a point when you post. You haven't mentioned anything i didn't already cover and make not points as to why the current system is any good.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 10:16

#15

Tumble

Legacy Username

Is there something I'm

Is there something I'm missing with all these energy complaint threads? I haven't been experiencing any of the problems that people have complained about. In fact, my complaint would be that energy is way too cheap. I have less than a day of playtime and I'm already at 4 star gear. I haven't paid a cent for CE, nor have I received a crown of charity. I wasn't here during the preview so I spent a great deal of the time just learning the ropes and smelling the flowers, and I don't have high level friends to carry me through the game. I'm not trying to conserve energy either, I die frequently and spend a lot of energy doing party revives. Progress has been so fast in this game that any sort of achievement is completely meaningless. I don't get any feeling of accomplishment after I get new gear. Why are people saying that you are restricted to a couple hours of playtime? I cannot imagine anyone not being able to make 3.2k in two floors. Are people just dying over and over again on the very first level and using their mist energy solely for revives? What am I missing here?

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 10:18

#16

FossaFerox

Legacy Username

Playing is free. Playing

Playing is free. Playing endlessly costs a minimal investment.

If there isn't incentive to buy CE, the game will fail. Three Ring is a for profit company.

Nothing can or should change.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 10:40

#17

Belanis

Legacy Username

FossaFerox, congrats, most

FossaFerox, congrats, most worthless post on the topic so far.

Not only u stated the obvious, and probably didn't read anything, but you also didn't make a single point for the current system and helped my point.

good job.

Tumble, i don't think anyone believes you for a sec. good try.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 11:20

#18

Mrbooradley

this is like monatoespirit

realitygap tryed to make a player run like this they wanted players to buy ingame currency and now that games dead within few months it died becaue tehy wantred u to buy the currency not many wanted u could buy it ingame with ingame currency but it failed it costed 10 metatix to move to a new map it costed metatix to upgrade stuff now sk it costs 10 ce for elevators then the alchemy uses alot right now im laughing so dam hard and if u dont belive search monato espirit for ur self they tryed something like this haveing players run the economy and it died fast this game is going the same way people will play it defend it and all that bs but some months in the future say good bye to it cause it may be gone i dont care if this was a useless post but im just saying that another game has tryed this and it failed on thier part

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 11:26

#19

Icee

You want 10 hours a day for free?

60 levels will take about 10 hours to play. If you spend 10 hours a day every day playing this game, as you claim, you are playing an unusually and surprisingly large amount. You can't be a student and you can't be employed, so I guess I understand why you can't pay for the game. (On the other hand, how did you get broadband internet and a nice enough computer?) Because 60 levels a day is at the very extreme high end, it makes a poor reference point for what a reasonable cost is. I acknowledged that at the extreme end of playtime, games that offer subscriptions may be a better deal, but this game doesn't offer subscriptions, so you'll have to either play less or pay more. The micropayment model that does exist is a great deal for people who play a low to moderate amount as the vast majority of players will. Game designers shouldn't design core systems to cater to the fringe players, especially if the fringe players aren't paying customers.

You claimed that other micropayment games offer better deals and still make all content available for free players. I asked you to provide an example, and you failed to do so. I visited the Dynasty Warriors Online website and found a large list of items that must be purchased with the cash currency and no mention of an exchange. Maybe you could play for hours and hours for free, but you couldn't access everything. Here, you can access everything for free, you just have to limit your playtime or accumulate gear more slowly. There has to be a tradeoff one way or the other.

As for the cost of CE tripling (in crowns), of course it has. The game is barely a week old. The economy isn't stabilized yet and it likely won't for quite a few more weeks, maybe even months depending upon how long it takes to reach a stable population.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 11:28

#20

Waffle

Legacy Username

What I really can't

What I really can't understand is why people get so defensive as soon as someone suggests "lower CE cost" or anything that makes it easier for new players.

I'm pretty sure that all the author of this topic wants is to improve the game, make it better for the new guys, so that this game may bloom and become even bigger.
The more players that get a good start and feel welcome to a game, the more people who will eventually buy energy for money, which in the end will net even a bigger profit for the company.

Prices probably won't rise at the same rate in two weeks as they do now, but either way, the more they rise the more unwelcome new players will probably feel.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 11:39

#21

Tumble

Legacy Username

I would appreciate it if you

I would appreciate it if you didn't speak so defensively towards me. If I ridiculed your post or insulted you in any way, I apologize, but that was not my intention. The reason I was asking is because my personal experience and the experiences of the few friends I have made ingame yield a very small sample size and isn't enough to conclude that there isn't in fact a problem. It may be quite possible that some other people on these forums are not as lucky as we are, or have been using other game features that aren't as profitable, and those are the kinds of responses I was looking for. In my very first solo run of tier 1, I walked out with 5k crowns in hand, and a handful of materials including a swordstones and an iron gear, and I still had energy left. After spending that energy for a few more levels, if I were to sell all my materials, I would end up with at least 10k worth of crowns. Was I extremely lucky, or is this within reasonable bounds? If this is within reasonable bounds, then I would presume that a new player is able to perpetually play this game and afford new equipment at the same time. If I was just extremely lucky, what do you feel is the average income of spending 100 energy in tier 1? I cannot imagine it being under 5k, so even if energy were to increase to 5k, new players are still well off.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 11:39

#22

FossaFerox

Legacy Username

Sorry Belanis, I didn't

Sorry Belanis, I didn't realize that the single most obvious fact in the game required a wall of text to clarify.

Put simply, making energy more available than it currently is or lowering the rate of energy consumption both serve to devalue energy and lower the incentive for people to purchase it. If this were to happen the game would cease to exist. Millions of dollars went into creating this game and the upkeep costs aren't exactly cheap. Servers aside there is a full staff of developers and customer support personnel who need to take home a living wage after Sega takes their cut.

If people aren't buying CE, no more game.

So, with that in mind you need to stop considering what would make the game more convenient for you, personally, and think about what is required for the game and others like it to continue to exist.

"Freemium" games are in still in their infancy and this along with League of Legends are really the test cases. If either game fails it could very well mean the death (or delay) of this entire financing model as applied to quality games. Farmville and other skinner-box-cash-grabs would most likely be unaffected, but the future availability of quality freemium games is at stake here.

Now, having said that lets look at why, specifically, your ideas all build towards the same terrible goal.

Lower elevator costs - This is something they're already doing on a promotional basis. I have it on good authority that "power" weekends will happen as special events. To make the costs permanently lower means that people need less energy and thus will be less inclined to buy energy. Less energy bought means somewhere down the line Sega pulls the plug.
Mist tank refills for 1k - This devalues CE tremendously. Since anything you do (including crafting 5* items) consumes the mist tank first you would always fill your tank prior to doing anything. In a matter of time almost no one would be buying CE since for anything other than crafitng four and five star items the energy would be available cheap. This would be an even more dramatic decline over your last suggestion.
CE drops in dungeon - Once again, making CE more available reduces its inherent value and lowers the incentive to purchase it. Less energy purchased, less money for the developers, game goes belly up.
Doubling mist capacity and regen rate - Again, CE becomes much less valuable, particularly since now you could craft 4* gear from your mist tank alone. You have found exciting new ways to gut the financial premise this game was built on.
Splitting elevator costs - This idea is functionally idea #1 for 4 player parties except now you've decided to punish people who solo or play with 1-2 friends by making them pay more for not grouping with strangers. This essentially has nothing to do with energy costs so much as it shows you feel people should be punished for duoing or soloing.

Really though, your entire series of arguments can be dismissed for one simple reason. Let's go back to the beginning of your first post.

You clearly stated that you consider it to be a problem that "Someone has to buy CE even if it isn't you."

Very good. Someone has to give the developers money for the game to continue to exist. So glad you figured that out. Unfortunately, you think the developers making money is a problem.

It isn't. It's how this game exists in the first place.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 11:39

#23

Icee

Easier freeloading doesn't increase profits.

I don't understand why people think that making it easier to play for free will make the game more profitable for the people that created it.

Everyone gets 100 free mist every 22 hours and new players quickly earn two mist tanks. Making CE cheaper on the exchange won't make the game easier for new players - they already get extra free mist for completing their objectives. Making CE cheaper on the exchange will make things easier for experienced players at the expense of paying customers who will get fewer crowns per dollar when they use the exchange. Only a fool would make things less attractive for paying customers in order to please freeloaders.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 12:47

#24

Belanis

Legacy Username

FossaFerox: i'm convinced you

FossaFerox: i'm convinced you still haven't read my opening post at all even though u quoted it.

My goal is to get people playing this game more while still making it worth while for people to spend money on it so the developers still get revenue from it.

If the game is easy to get in and keep playing, the community will b bigger, and more chances for the developers to milk players for extras.

Don't gimme the "millions of dollars" argument, especially if it runs on java. it's never been valid, won't b now. and there's no reason to not allow people to keep playing while still having some purchasable aspect in the game.

If anything, you're the one considering that I have my personal interests in mind. but I just want my friends to play this game.

If you READ, none of those ideas were mine, i never claimed to b able to come up with a better system off the bat. just that the current one is VERY off putting to new players.

And again, if u would read more, i suggested that any of those should probably be coupled with disabling crafting with myst energy. but i guess you missed that too, uh?

again, don't justify bad systems with "someone has to pay the developers", tons of game do it without limiting your ability top play the game.

Again, all that text and you did not make a single point why the current system is good, bravo.

Icee, u keep posting, but nothing u type has a point

Look, if u want the creators of this game to get money so bad, mail it to them directly.

and i didn't fail to provide with with an example, everything in that game can b acquired for free. if u don't know what you're talking about, don't say anything.

srly, stop posting, you're embarrassing yourself at this point.

Tumble

Sorry if i was rude, but when making these topics there's always tons of people that think the people who developped this game are homeless and need the money for food.

As i keep saying, i know people who started playing the game, liked it, but are so limited by the energy they either give up or can't keep playing.

and as i said, it's doable now, but it keeps rising drastically, and may not b doable in the near future. a system that allows people to at least play more would b nicer.

I don't really think this game is a gift from god like some people here seem to, it's just a game, there's way better stuff out there. and not coded in java too.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 12:54

#25

Belanis

Legacy Username

Anmida, are you really going

Anmida, are you really going there? are you really saying i should pay for the free MMO? really?

Well, then you're making my point for me then.

Thanks.

See that's the thing, none of you can argue this is a good system, and always go back to the "you don't like it pay for it" which really, isn't a defense at all and completely defeats the free MMO aspect.

good job, srly.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 16:38

#26

Anmida

Legacy Username

I do believe you don't

I do believe you don't understand the fact there's no need for anyone to defend the system, because it's not made to please everyone.
And no, I am not telling you to pay for a free mmo. I am telling you to play the free MMO as it is. The free SK has restrictions, that's how it is. If you see a game you don't like for its mechanics, do you start bwwww'ing at the developers until they make it to your liking? Why? Other people find it fun as it is, why would they change something to please a handful instead of another when the developers themselves are pleased with it as it is?

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 16:57

#27

FossaFerox

Legacy Username

The current system is good

The current system is good because it lets people get a taste for the game (especially with the free myst refills when you unlock new tiers of content) allows casual players to log a solid 1-2 hours of gameplay a day, and still incentivizes the purchase of CE which funds the whole shebang.

The only people complaining are a loud minority who feel that they are somehow entitled to get something for nothing and don't realize that their selfishness would be detrimental to the game as a whole.

Increasing the size of the playerbase by making things chepaer would raise the dev's costs while not necessarily raising their income. If the size of the playerbase doubles suddenly they're paying for more servers, more bandwidth, and a heck of a lot more customer support reps. Meanwhile your ideas all make it less rewarding to give the developers money.

Thee Ring is not running a charity.

Their goal is not to entertain you through self-sacrificing policies.

Their goal is to make money by getting people to pay a little bit of money to pay a very fun game. I'm sorry this is such a difficult concept for you to grasp.

They want players to have a good reason to give them money.

The current system accomplishes just that. The system works.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 16:59

#28

Jalok

Stop bashing yo peeps!

Stop bashing each other you guys! Overall, this issue of energy has been talked about for days now. It is up for the devs to decide what they want to with the energy system. If they want to loose players, fine by me. If they want to keep their players, then hopefully they will try to solve the energy problem.

So far my only solution for us f2p members out there is to sadly ask around if P2P members are willing to sell their 100CE for 2.8k or some other reasonable price + some matz if they accept any. From my personal experience, sometimes sometimes P2P members are reasonable and generous, and other times they want more from us. Life isn't fair, and we have to accept it. =/

DO SOMETHING DEVS!:
Devs if you want to keep your players, I suggest finding a solution.
You know how sociology in business works! If customers does not like a company of what ever service/thing that they are doing, customers are more likely to tell 10 other people about something bad about the company, than something good! All these "unfair energy advantage" forum topics is giving you guys a second chance/clues that you have to do something to keep your players and to avoid disappointed players to tell other gamers how bad your game is when in reality, it isn't!!! =(

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 18:27

#29

Deathbreak

Legacy Username

Belanis, you REALLY need to

Belanis, you REALLY need to calm down. You're quickly making a fool of yourself.

Average cost of T2 run: 200 crowns, 60e.
Average profit of a T2 run: At least 5K crowns.
Current cost of 60e: 1860
Per-run profit: Over 3K.

Making a per-run cost isn't the worst idea for a game. It forces players to be smart- to dot their i's and cross their t's. The fact that you can pay for e is completely irrelevant. If you take this in context as a purely crown-driven feature, then it's perfectly fine. Anyone who quits because of e use needs to stop dying, stop rushing, or stop bailing on runs.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 18:51

#30

Metaknight

belanUs get it

belanUs

get it

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 20:52

#31

Zingman

Points to Ponder... Cost of a

Points to Ponder...

Cost of a Tier 1 run (in energy): 60
Cost of a Tier 2 run (in energy): 80
Cost of a Tier 3 run (in energy): 90

Conclusion: you can do an entire Tier run on mist energy alone. This is of course assuming you don't play reckless and die a lot by going somewhere that's out of your league. If you're trying to play totally for free, you can definitely you need to play smart and not die a lot.

Crafting cost of 2 Star equipment: 50
Crafting cost of 3 Star equipment: 100
Crafting cost of 4 Star equipment: 200
Crafting cost of 5 Star equipment: 300

Here I can see an issue with the free to play players having a problem. With wise energy management a totally free to play can craft up to 3-star equipment, but that would require that on a day they crafted a 3-star piece of equipment, they not play any gates. However, there is no requirement that they have to craft the equipment themselves. Someone else can craft the equipment and sell it to them. In a lot of other so called "fremium" games, you'd have to pay to wear the 5 star gear, here you don't. So in conclusion, this really isn't an issue for free to play players.

Which means the only point that really matters is cost of doing a run thru the gates. If you're playing smart, and not dying stupidly, 100 energy should last you around 2 hours +/- depending upon how fast you clear the gates. To me that means that the gate costs are designed perfectly. Its enough to give you a good taste, but not enough to really satiate you. If they halved the gate costs people playing smart could play for 4 hours free each day, after which most be burnt out. People that are burnt out don't buy CE, people that want to play more do.

To get unlimited play time, the developers/Sega would have to either restrict how deep free players can go, or what equipment they could wear.

So let me ask you this...

Which would you rather have:

Option 1: Players have unlimited playtime, but are limited on how deep they can go and what equipment they can wear. They cannot wear anything better than 3-star equipment and can go no deeper than the terminal on tier 2. No cool armor types/weapons, no jelly king, no vanaduke.

Option 2: Players have limited playtime, but are unlimited otherwise. With smart energy management, a totally free player can do everything a player who buys additional energy with real life money does.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 23:19

#32

Jalok

I choose option 2!

Yeah, honestly, I remembered complaining about this issue for quite a while. But I just learned to deal with it (thanks to me falling into the common human psychology of things), and find better alternatives, and try to workout with P2P members to buy energy.

It might be difficult for other players to deal with it if they give up so easily. If that is what most of the players that are doing this, this would not look good for the Spiral Knights game, because like I said. An angry customer is going to mention something bad, more than something good to friends, which therefore make 3-Rings look bad.

If that ever happens, and if 3-Rings ever goes with Option 1. Oh nos! Old players would be in an outrage of this, verses new players would say "what are you talking about?"
So basically it is a lose-lose situation for the company. =/ I guess, players could do is hope that the CE market would be reasonable or wait it out, or something! Hopefully it would get better when this game is settled for a bit. It is still new.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:37

#33

Moon-Man

stepped in some goomba

I can't help but sit back and snicker at this. When the worst thing one can say about the game is that they want more of it, I'd say that's a good thing.

<--------Now as you can plainly see I'm a new player and I've taken what time I've been here to do my homework and familiarize myself with the game. I don't mean to suggest any potential fixes to this "issue" but I hope that I might add some perspective.

At first I was a bit disappointed to find that I would inevitably need to purchase some CE if I ever wished to venture ever forward and delve ever deeper into this game (though I can't say I was surprised). But, I'm by no means required to do so in any way shape or form that includes my wallet. In fact It's not an absolute requirement for anything (granted one has the patience to earn the crowns); and I have to say that I'm quite pleased with that. The fact that I can do, well... everything, in the game without ever reaching a hard barrier to which only cash is the key to passing, I find quite surprising.

That said I wish to continue by stating that the current market price for 100 CE (which was 3280 crowns when I last looked) I at first thought a bit questionable; considering how much I could make from a full T1 run. Once I took the time to check just how much CE I would actually require, (alchemy fees for T3 gear) I figured that was reasonable. What scares me (just a bit) is the expected equilibrium price people predict at around 10K crowns; which I find a bit steep for newbies. Maybe a system set price floor or ceiling to make sure prices aren't too crazy, but I already said I wasn't going to get into that so moving on... The game is still newly released so it might be good to let the market stabilize before anyone starts screwing with it.

I feel a need to add to this by saying, I do have a great deal of fun playing this game. I know I'm essentially just grinding nonstop, but in a good way; if that doesn't sound too weird. The game play of run, shoot, slash over and over again feel more like the run, jump, stomp of an old school Super Mario game. Sure you're basically doing the same dang thing throughout the game but it never gets old and feels good. Which is just a long way to saying that, I'm not focused on trying to min/max my gear or just trying to reach that next tier, cause dang it! I'm having fun! So, I suspect that even if CE prices hit something some might find unnervingly high, I'll still be content to play the game.

P.S.
To anyone who is willing and able to pay for the extra convenience of having a stock of CE to meet their needs I say, good for you! You're supporting the game in turn supports me, the technical freerider, (WOOOO!) cheers to you!

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 09:32

#34

Waffle

Legacy Username

I still can't see any reason

I still can't see any reason why something like:

"Refill your mist tank - 1000 CR cost, 4-8 hours cooldown - This energy may not be used for crafting."
Would ruin the game.

Something as simple as this, it let's the new guys play, the older guys grind more if they so desire and I can't imagine it messing up the economy on the server.

Even as people claim "it's not bad" or even better "it's not bad yet" why not make it better?

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 09:45

#35

mistermalice

Legacy Username

I like the idea of paying a

I like the idea of paying a set amount of crowns to refill the mist energy tank. Saving CE for crafting or trading to other players, using ME to adventure. Thats a good idea. I hope the mods implement that or hire you!

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 10:25

#36

Techhead

Legacy Username

Economics lesson

Contrary to popular belief, is is possible that decreasing elevator cost can actually inflate the CE market.

Allow me to make a couple hypothetical assumptions:
Energy costs 3500cr. (Approx. current market price)
Spending 10 floors is T2 nets an average of 10500cr per run. (Estimate is on high side)
Thus, buying market CE nets a 200% ROI for Tier 2.
(Point of interest: In beta, CE peaked at around 10kcr.)

If 100 energy allowed one to run twice as many floors, then ROI would rise to 500%, with 100 CE netting 21000cr.
IF players started taking advantage of this faster than supply could keep up, energy prices could rise to the 20k range.
However, players could play twice as long on the initial 100 daily ME.

Just food for thought.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 11:59

#37

FossaFerox

Legacy Username

I still can't see any reason

I still can't see any reason why something like:

"Refill your mist tank - 1000 CR cost, 4-8 hours cooldown - This energy may not be used for crafting."
Would ruin the game.

Waffle, you're not looking at the bigger picture. While this may be convenient, it heavily disincentivizes buying CE either in game or for real world money. By lowering the demand for CE you are making it less likely that players will buy CE.

Less money for the developers = death of the game and the condemnation of the Freemium genre.

I know someone who is playing on mist energy alone no problem. On the otherhand, I spent real money early on, and until I started buying 5* recipes I always had more CE than I bought for real world money.

Playing this game wihtout buying CE is supposed to be hard. If it wasn't people wouldn't have a reason to buy it and the game wouldn't have the funding required for it to stay alive.

Fri, 04/15/2011 - 04:55

#38

herflik

Legacy Username

This game is a joke.

As a player of almost every MMO on the game market (F2P ones mostly) ,foreign games ,browser games and many others i can only say that the game is doomed to fail.

This game is in no way an F2P game ,any game that sell power by real cash cant be called F2P game ,but a FAIL game.
Anyone who dont agree to it must be just skillless player with only way to have chance versus other players is to pay for his power.
This game is just like the someone else said " another facebook crap game" ,with dont even have chance to compete with regular online games in world ,even with the crap ones.

The concept of the game arent bad ,i enjoy the game somehow ,the dungeon runs ,party system ,crafting somehow. Bit reminds me of old good lunia when it wasnt yet hammered to ground with ....cash shop items.

Writing here that "someone need to pay for game" is also totall fail ,only low inteligence people think like that ,because F2P games that have more F2P players got much HIGHER income than P2P/OP cash shop games. Why so ?? Simply because if the game is F2P friendly there is way much more people playing the game ,so even more new people will come and some % of the population will want to pay for cash shop items. As the population is 100 times higher than crap managment games like this ,the % give much more higher profits for developers.

The best example is game called League of Legends ,its MOBA game (DOTA like) where it beats most P2P, B2P, F2P games on the market. It can compete with anything ,WOW ,guildwars ,aion and it got so rapidly growing population that they got often server problems ,because the servers are stressed all time with to many people trying to get into game.
Its mostly because they got good developers ,that update the game regulary giving new content to players. But wery big part of the succes is cash shop decisions of the managment of game ,all that you can buy in the cash shop is "exp boosters" ,where even by F2P player you can reach max lvl wery fast. Gold boosts ,that give you more gold ,though F2P player can get gold enough fast to buy things he wants. And last thing is unique skins ,that just make you look different ,no stat bonus.
Basicaly their cash shop sell NO POWER at all ,dont limit any free player and the game is doing great. The incomes of it must be skyrocket comparing to this game ,and everybody there is happy with that.

Basicaly this game is already dead ,as i see the population of it in game ,cash shop selling power and limiting players so much that i barely can play 30-60min per day for free. If something wont change fast ,and i mean drastic change ,the game will be just another failure and wont be even talked about in online game community. Ofc some people will play it ,but it will be nowhere close to popular game. If developers dont wanna create great game then what i can say ,if they are satisfied with low quality then they will have result of low income.

By drastic changes i mean :
- removing the crap energy system or revamp it in a way that it will impact all players in the same way
- make more items and maps ( i really like the items ,their attacks , maps are bit to small though)
- add some character development (maybe skills)
- add cash shop items that give no real power , they can put higher drop rate for crafting items ,higher drop rate overall ,higher heat gain rates etc.

I see that the game got some potential ,concept ,some things just works nicely here ,but if it will stay like that it will just die.
The main question should be stated to developers ,they wanna make some nice game or game that can be outplayed by flash game on armorgames or any other site?? Because now some flash game beats it ,beats it alot.

Fri, 04/15/2011 - 15:55

#39

Zingman

"i barely can play 30-60min

"i barely can play 30-60min per day for free."

Your playing wrong.

I can easily play for 2 hours on mist energy alone (unless I'm crafting something that day, which doesn't happen every day)

Which means you're either dying a lot, or your rushing through the levels so quickly you're leaving half the crowns/materials behind.

A full tier 1 run (if you don't die and make sure you get everything) should net you between 4-7k crowns for the cost of 60 energy. At current market prices that's 500-3500 crowns and 40 CE profit if you decide to buy some CE. Full tier 2 runs make even more than that, especially if you do the jelly king. If you can't do a full tier 2 run yet, start in tier 1 and go as deep as you can into tier 2 (i.e. until you die more than once). I've found that depths 6 and 7 tend to pay better than depths 9 and sometimes 10, and are usually on par with depth 11.

Sat, 04/16/2011 - 04:22

#40

Rentago

Legacy Username

It is a problem that even I can see

To solve this issue, wouldn't it just require that mist energy regenerates faster to be a more forgiving system?

In the sense that everyone can play for free, but they'll hit a wall very quickly, then they notice the game isn't free at all later. It is more like a disguised monthly fee game, where instead you get to choose when and how you pay to play for as long as you plan to play.

It requires energy to craft items and not something you can afford with mist energy, which is a noticeable issue to me.

I mean the point of "FREE GAMES" are to make money, but they don't exactly have to FORCE the money from the players.

To me the solution is to increase the rate in which mist energy regenerates.

herflik, there is nothing wrong with this cash shop, you can't buy the best weapons in the game directly with your money, you still need to go down dungeons and hope that the trader has it. The issue is that the game relies heavily on you having energy to keep playing.

The games you are talking about are the ones where the cash shop has the majority of content in which you can't access unless you pay for them. This game doesn't keep content away, there are no exclusive weapons, or armor to be bought with real money, but it does make it harder for the free players. This current system is fine in the sense that it doesn't hurt to have a well armed, and generous man in your party reviving you and paying for the challenge rooms, it would hurt however if there was PVP and you had to fight against him.

Another problem is that your argument is very flawed, it doesn't seem like you understand how different games are, well exactly that, "different."

League of Legends isn't an mmo, it has a big community, but why it makes money is because if you don't pay you have to deal with the random roll of characters to pick from or the slow grinding of their ingame currency and exp, paying just means you get your favorite guy to use unrestricted to the weekly roll, a unique skin, and faster progression. This however means that there won't be continual income unless they keep producing new content. The money stops when there is nothing left to buy and when the players stop coming in.

World of Warcraft is an mmo with a monthly fee AND a cash shop, it is a dead cow in which blizzard will continue to beat.

Guildwars is actually subscription free. but you do however need to buy it, and they added a store in which to purchase additional content.

When you buy energy in this game, it does many things, it provides money so that you can get gear faster, energy to progress much farther, and temporary bonuses if you choose to get trinkets and the like. Nothing over powered, nothing game breaking.

The argument is "WHY DO I HAVE TO STOP PLAYING?"

You have to stop playing because you won't pay, which is certainly unfair, as this is a "FREE GAME."

They didn't lie to you, you've been allowed to play for free, up to the point where you had to get on the forums to cry about it.

This is however a point in which now you wait for your energy to recharge so you may continue to play.

Then you can get on once again, and play, AT NO COST TO YOU.

I disagree with this, but what bothers me more is babies who cry and don't understand one bit about how this system works.
Vindictus uses a similar system, it however manages it better by being generous with its "energy."

Once again, to fix this issue, increase mist energy regeneration, crystal energy will still be bought, but free players will be able to continue to play.

Unless developers think the influx of more people will do their servers harm and begin to cost them more money than they make.

Sat, 05/14/2011 - 14:39

#41

Spikerfeesh

lets get something straight

we want to avoids ad's ing ame so we pay for Ce and every one has accesse the game devlopers do need a new way to make money with wheir other games aging and making less(ypp bang howdey) this game was also co-written by sega so they prolly want a bit of cash buy i do agree CE reform is needed and most probably will soon actually

Sat, 05/14/2011 - 19:00

#42

Augurii

Ehhh...

There are 2 real solutions...

a) Ads during loading screens
b) Subscriptions

I hate to be honest, but it's THAT cut and dry. MMORPGs cost alot of money to run, and this game has the energy system which is contradictory to the game being a DUNGEON CRAWLER. To be honest though- I think both of those options is more fair than the current energy system.

Search

A suggestion for the "Energy Issue"