Spiral Knights - Please Bring Back the Sanity and Enjoyment

Please Bring Back the Sanity and Enjoyment

23 replies [Last post]

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 14:04

Kryptix

This is a post that I think needs to be made. Others have said the same thing in the forums, but I would like to make a dedicated post about it.

First, I want to thank OOO for the game they have made, it's fun and enjoyable. I want to say that first since there are players who aren't happy with the recent updated. I've been playing since the launch and have seen the same thing repeated over and over again. There is a big update made, a portion the fanbase isn't happy and go ranting about how much the game and OOO sucks. I will admit I have been on that side once or twice, but have realized there is a reason.

For those that weren't here, there was a big uproar when binding was first put in place. The same thing has happened with accessories and the Shadow Liars. Personally, I'm not too big on how the Shadow Key system works. You have to buy a key, to open a box for a chance at a key. There are some that float around the Auction House from time to time, so I could easily do that. Seeing that on the other end, from OOO's perspective, I would be all for it. After all, the game doesn't require money upfront. OOO has to make their money someway. I have seen posts bashing OOO for trying to make money, and for those people, are you saying you wouldn't? Put yourself into the designer's and developer's shoes. How would they make a living without ways to make us spend money? How could they continue to provide us this game?

Money that is made from the game goes directly (at least I'm assuming it does) into development and support. Without that money, they couldn't keep the server running. Without it, there wouldn't be new content.

As for bugs, OOO has always done the best job they can to fix them. If you have never coded anything yourself, then you don't know what it's like to find a very small bug in the system of hundreds of thousands of lines of code. Needle in a haystack there. You also wouldn't know how fixing one bug can easily create two to three more. That's the nature of coding.

Regarding the suggestions forums, have you take a look at how large it is, or how often new posts are submitted? That is a lot of content to filter through. Put your suggestion in there, back it up with some ideas and I'm sure it will be considered.

Basically, all I ask is not to go on a blame game and take some time to cool down from whatever has you heated. If what has made you upset still bothers you, there is a simple solution. Go play something or somewhere else. Go play Farmville or WoW. Go outside for a walk more often. If you don't enjoy the game anymore, don't play.

I for one want to commend OOO on the job they have done so far, Spiral Knights is far from perfect, but that doesn't change the fact that I play it everyday. Incase you're wondering, I'm not on their payroll in anyway, this is just a fan of the game that strives for some sanity and enjoyment in the game and forums.

Feel free to leave your opinions as they won't change mine, but if it will help you enjoy the game more, by all means, post away. I do hope someone from OOO reads this so they do know that there are a some players that appreciate their hard work. Thanks again.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 14:11

Barnabyjoness

I give more then my share of

I give more then my share of money to OOO, and indeed they have developed a great game that does deserve it. But what happened to rewarding loyalty?
I dont like that the money I have spent went into creating a feature that makes me spend more money. If this is what I am contributing to, count me out. I will continue to play/enjoy this game. Will I consider spending more money after updates like these? That is less likely.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 14:28

Kinkypenguin

The only compromise i see

The only compromise i see that's beneficial for both players and OOO is to sell the Shadow Keys in a vendor with the price of 750 CE? Why? Because the shadow lair is intended for 5* players, and getting 750 CE at that level is way too simple.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 14:56

Bopp

setting prices

Kryptix, I appreciate your sentiment.

Kinkypenquin is trying to determine a good, "fair" price for Shadow Lairs. Let's think about how such a price would be set. Here is some history.

Currently 100 CE costs around 6100 crowns. People are continually saying that the price should be lowered to something like 5000 crowns. They think that's fair. But before Spiral Knights was launched, people would complain about 100 CE costing 4400 crowns. So what's a fair price?
When Spiral Knights launched, crafting costs were much lower than they are now. I think it was 500 energy to craft a 5-star item? Then it was raised to 800 energy, and there was a huge uproar, which has since gone away. So is 800 energy a fair price? Or is 500 the fair price?
When Spiral Knights launched, crafted items were unbound. Then the process was altered so that bound items remain bound, and there was a huge uproar, which has since gone away. Is it fair, to make bound items stay bound upon crafting, or not?

There are other examples, but let's leave it there. My point is that most people arguing for "fair" treatment don't even attempt to justify where they set "fair". The truth is that they just want everything cheaper than it is now.

The standard way for determining prices is to let the market decide. You collect preliminary data on demand, set a preliminary price, collect data on sales, and adjust accordingly. This is exactly what Three Rings is doing. Simply vote with your time and money; they'll get the message.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 15:10

Lordnamechange

to the comment above

dont get me wrong when i say this but u are looking at this at a very stupid persons point of view
when the spiral knights game launched energy war 4400 the craft was 500 and items were unbound after crafting
right before you could get a TF2 hat for SK they changed it raised it hoping more players would come and they thought it was fair cause they were new thew knew no better
if you ask the older players that they are quite fed up with SK devs doing this to them (or atleast the ones ive known) that they liked sk till steamers came in with alot of money and shoved it in SKs face and made it greed consumed game that every thing now relies on whom has the biggest waistable paycheck so they and only they get access to new in-game content cause that all OOO wants is money and they are willing to tease the hard working class (F2P players) with goodies then give it to the wealthy class (P2P players)
so they dont want every thing cheaper they want every thing obtainable w/o spending half their paycheck to OOO

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 15:27

Ccrusader

AWESOME post

AWESOME post Kryptix!!
Totally back you on everything you said!!
thank you OOO for an awesome game!

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 15:44

Bopp

lol Manlyname

"dont get me wrong when i say this but u are looking at this at a very stupid persons point of view"

Well, I don't think I've gotten you wrong; you're very clearly saying that my viewpoint is stupid. ;)

"if you ask the older players that they are quite fed up with SK devs doing this to them (or atleast the ones ive known) that they liked sk till steamers came in with alot of money and shoved it in SKs face"

When Steam came to Spiral Knights, I'd already been playing SK for nearly two months. The influx of Steam players did not ruin my enjoyment in any way. I know only a few people who spend a lot of money on SK, but for what it's worth none of them use Steam.

"so they dont want every thing cheaper they want every thing obtainable w/o spending half their paycheck to OOO"

So...they don't want everything to be cheaper, but they want it to cost less? Are you sure I'm the stupid one here?

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 16:44

Kryptix

Additional Comment

Something I did forget to mention, is that with updates and bugfixes. You have to remember that the developers have their tasks prioritized. Just because your suggestion or bugfix hasn't been resolved yet doesn't mean that it won't be. Have some patience and have fun.

And Bopp, I agree with you. No one can have the cake and eat it too.

Hmm, cake does sound tasty.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 17:10

Lordnamechange

bopp

yes you did manage to get me wrong what i was saying dont take offence to this which apperently you did i never called you stupid i said that what you said was stupid and they dont have to make something cost less to make it obtainable for instance

iron boxes are plain openable w/o need of over priced key
shadow lairs that dont cost 100k~ to get into

ohh and the stupid ones?
kryptix & Ccrusader
why?
cause they lickin the gritof OOO hiked up gurnads

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 17:22

Sunless

Editted.

Nevermind.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 17:24

#10

Aylnine

Hmm. Help me understand

Hmm. Help me understand something here:

"they dont have to make something cost less to make it obtainable for instance [...] iron boxes are plain openable w/o need of over priced key"

Making it openable without a key makes it cost less. I'm not quite sure how it could be otherwise. Please explain.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 17:25

#11

Ken-Shiro

It's a good game and every

It's a good game and every thing, but it's hard to put a value on what this game's worth. To a person with no job and having all this free time, he probably wouldn't mind wasting away his time and getting gear little by little. The game is based on getting a stream of gears that seems to be meant to be attainable at a very slow rate. A person that needs to work or whatnot, can't spend all his time monotonously playing the same stages over and over just to get energy or crowns for whatever purpose. I guess the real enjoyment about spiral knights is showing off what you got to other people. That and it's multiplayer online. I don't blame OOO for wanting to make money for their work, but in the end, it's one of those deals that seems like no matter how much more money you give, you are still limited by the nature of the game's rules and so forth. Now, I'm not even critizing the market system. But it is kind of a shame that it's pretty hard to make any good money the whole day to get a good enough budget to whatever the person wants to do. I feel like I'm doing boss runs just for the sake of tokens most of the time. Even with the capability of selling items you trade for boss tokens, it still makes fighting the same boss a huge chore. All the other ways of making a profit seem to fail depending on what your goal is, if you're a completionist or whatever. It's like on the one hand, you want to sell a gear with an awesome UV to get some new gear so you can get ever closer to getting everything off the checklist(another matter of showing off), but on the other hand you want the UV because it's one of those rare UVs that you may never see again, or at least in a loooooong long while. And the game has been updated, so it diminishes the average guy's chances.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 17:35

#12

Aurorra

There are other examples, but

There's actually quite a few posts of people justifying where the line is drawn for a "fair" price.

It's not as though Three Rings has made something completely new and innovative, there is a wealth of data already in existance of what a "fair" price is for the type of service they are providing. Current estimates have the cost of finding a Shadow Key at around $75, which will get you and three buddies around one to two hours of playing the new content, not including costs of using lifts, rezzing, and crafting the gear that is the ultimate goal of the Shadow Lairs. For that $75, you and three buddies could also play any subscription based MMO for an entire month. Or in the case of other F2P games, like Dungeons and Dragons Online for example, you and three buddies can each buy an adventure pack, for the same price, and have permanent access to that content, with some change leftover for getting anything else that strikes your fancy.

Those of us railing against Three Rings for the cost of playing this update aren't doing so without just cause. The cost associated with the new Shadow Lairs is so high that the only people buying into it are people Three Rings has so business selling to. So I look at Three Rings with the same contempt I would someone setting up a bar next to an AA meeting, or peddling drugs in front of a rehab clinic.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 19:20

#13

Gwenyvier

First off... Manlyname. Try

First off... Manlyname. Try some punctuation and people might understand you better, you have 2 periods (which don't count as they're after numbers designating points instead of sentence ends) and 2 question marks in the total of your posts. It's rather hard to know what the hell you're saying when you can't tell where a thought is supposed to end.

I was one of the original dissenters of the crafting increase. Also wasn't fond of the binding increase even though it didn't directly effect me at the time. I quickly changed to the people agreeing with it after I saw the reasoning behind it. This update I'm the opposite on, I started as one of the people going "ok, sounds good" to one of the people miffed by it.

As for the newest update... I don't mind paying to enter elite areas. Seriously, that's not an issue. I don't mind even paying for each trip in, I did that in Guild Wars for the Fissure of Woe and the Underworld. I EXPECT to have to pay to enter elite areas because they're meant for people that are end game. More disposable ingame income, wanting the challenge of the hard areas, etc. I don't mind at all OOO doing what they can to make money, if they don't make money then we have no game, and I actually like this game rather much. Paying is not the issue, for me at least... some people it is, the issue is the price.

What I, and a lot of other people, have issue with is the price of the Shadow Keys. Aurorra's number sounds fairly accurate, $75 (or about 30k CE, minimum) to enter the area ONCE! And if you want to do Shadow Vana you can at least triple that number ($225). You can get an entire brand new release game for any of the big console game systems for that much and have money left over. If you do some looking I'm pretty sure you can get a Dreamcast with a ton of games on Ebay for that much (a lot of them good ones). That's about 5 months subscription for WoW. It could be a nice date to a decent restaurant. You see my point. And that's for a single run through one of the dungeons. Most People are going to need a few to actually finish them.

Don't get me wrong, I'll end up doing them all eventually. I'm saving up right now so I can get a Wolver Set with the UVs I want because I know at the current price I won't be running these areas much no matter how fun and challenging they are. If the cost was 1K CE per key I'd be fine with it personally, I can make that in a few days doing runs and selling recipes, or throw some money to OOO so I can go play in them. If the price was reasonable I'd do a run once a week of them, simply for the challenge. As it stands now most people aren't going to do them because the price is bordering on downright insulting.

~Gwen

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 19:21

#14

Gwenyvier

And totally didn't realize I

And totally didn't realize I did yet another wall of text...

~Gwen

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 20:51

#15

Bopp

addiction is important to consider

Aurorra is suggesting that the people shelling out for Shadow Lairs are unhealthy. If this is true, then it is very important. Maybe I'm oblivious to it, because I'm not an experienced gamer.

Is the only evidence that the costs are extremely high? Or is there something else that I'm missing? Is there something in the content that indicates it's for addicts?

Edit: There is the gambling aspect. Hmm. Now I'm actually starting to get worried. You've given me food for thought.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 19:56

#16

Starlinvf

@Gwen: Another thing people

@Gwen: Another thing people aren't realizing is that its less damaging to start high, and then lower the price to equilibrium. Case in point.... even with the keys costing 750CE, we STILL ended up with a metric butt ton of cheap accessories clogging up the AH without buyers. Had the keys been cheaper, the saturation would be even higher, and some accessories becoming almost worthless. By then raising the price to slow the flood would be far too late to prevent the damage, and would take weeks, or even months for the supplies to dwindle back into projected amounts. Not to mention the backlash involved. Remember the mod cal uproar, and how OOO was ruining PvP even more? You forgot about it, didn't you...

The same thing with shadow keys and shadow armors. The levels themselves don't give any other type of reward... that should be a clear sign of the intended goal of the whole project. If the levels were too easily accessible, anyone with the proper clearance could just grind the area until they obtain what they want. The cost of entry and high difficulty scale almost forces players to gather a group of highly practiced, highly adaptive friends to reach the goal at the end of the run. As people gain experience in the areas, the runs themselves become much more manageable, and eventually it won't be considered much more difficult then Firestorm runs... just a smaller margin of error.

Part of the problem is that despite the supposed "universal protest" of the shadow keys, people are still going after them in full force. This is bad for the argument against it, since apparently the cost of entry isn't high enough to keep people from trying anyway. I also heard that the first guys that got the armor were strong proponents against the high cost of getting the shadow keys. If that isn't hypocrisy, I'm not sure what it.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 20:10

#17

The-Rawrcake

uhh starlinvf... are you

uhh starlinvf...

are you talking about silver keys being 750 CE or shadow keys?

I heard shadow keys are 7500 CE if thats a typo

/re-muting sorry i talked.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 20:23

#18

Starlinvf

I was talking silver in

I was talking silver in general. Since no one has a clear idea of how rare shadow keys are, a lot of the prices are speculation on the odds.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 20:37

#19

Tantarian

I think OOO is forgetting that to make money they have to make players keep playing, and none of their latest updates has done that, they just focus on having the players spend money "right now".

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 20:48

#20

Bopp

success rate seems to be 2%

At this point, there are basically three groups of players: paying for Shadow Lairs, outraged at Shadow Lairs, and don't care about Shadow Lairs.

Starlinvf, I also wonder how big the paying group is, relative to the outraged group. Certainly the latter is louder, but that's not data. As far as Silver Key to Shadow Key rate, the thread on that suggests that Shadow Keys show up in maybe 2% of Lockboxes. So you expect to require 50 attempts, or 750 * 50 = 37500 energy. Even if we're off by a factor of 5 on the success rate, we're talking about pretty astounding amounts to spend on a single expedition.

Tantarian, I suspect that Three Rings has thought about how to keep players playing. It's unlikely that they would spend four years making this game, only to deliberately run it into the ground six months after launch.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 21:57

#21

Tantarian

@Bopp
Nobody said it's deliberate. You would be surprised how easy it is to forget some things.
The last update would have been a good way to keep people playing, if the dungeons weren't so expensive that you are only able to run them once or twice in your entire SK life. Accessories added nothing. PvP seemed like the savior, but died due to its many unaddressed issues. Etc.

Sat, 10/22/2011 - 04:58

#22

Bopp

we don't have perfect information; Three Rings does

Tantarian, you are not alone in your views. I've heard them expressed dozens of times on these forums. Here's why I'm not convinced that you're right.

You and I and these other players play Spiral Knights, and read the release notes, and talk to people in Haven, and chatter away on the forums. We think that we have the pulse of the community. But there's no way we can really be sure. Maybe there really is a big class of players out there who can and do shell out huge money each time a new feature is added. Or maybe there's a small class, who shells out in the first week of a new feature, and not after that. We don't know. You and I just don't have detailed, statistically valid information about the playing and spending on SK.

On the other hand, Three Rings undoubtedly does have detailed, statistically valid information about the playing and spending on SK. And TR is motivated to keep this game running. And the people at TR are not just money-grubbing; they probably really care about this game. And they think about it many hours per day, and they've read books on game design, marketing, social psychology, etc. And their investors are looking over their shoulders.

Three Rings isn't perfect, but I suspect that these huge, weird updates are being calculated very carefully, using data that only TR has.

Sat, 10/22/2011 - 10:13

#23

Nodocchi

@GwenYou are forgetting

@Gwen
You are forgetting about those players who do not pay money. First of all it would be impossible for them to play World of Warcraft, second, if you tried to unlock premium content in DDO as a free player you would know that it takes forever. Hell they don't even let you have more than two characters per account as a free player or let you choose all the races. Spiral Knights lets free players play for free while allowing them to work for premium content at a pretty fast rate and I have even seen people try to capitalize on their skill/good equipment and try to get free rides into the Shadow Lair. There is a lot more freedom in the payment options that OOO offers and to not take that into account when you compare Spiral Knights to more rigid games does not do it justice.

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Please Bring Back the Sanity and Enjoyment