Spiral Knights - A Story of a Shadow Lair (and why I think they're rip-offs)

A Story of a Shadow Lair (and why I think they're rip-offs)

24 replies [Last post]

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 19:27

Coneykrab

I'll start with the story, from where I believe it all begins
My friend and I purchased Shadow Keys; if it's a one-time special we might as well, right? We get our other two friends on board for what we think will be an adventure and a challenge.
"What, there's some lag? Nothing we haven't dealt with before!" "I haven't had much lag with this game, we might be alright." "This should be tricky, tricky but fun!" "Besides, it's just Snarby with poison"; all thoughts going through our minds as we start our journey down. We reach the Shadow Lair Hub, and after a minute or so, I promise my friend that I'll put a key in the IQ gate.
We aren't quite surprised by what we first see; everything has a pinkish glow to it, there are wolvers scattered here and there with the occasional lumber. But what happens is a bit of a wake-up call. The lumber smashes my Grey Owlite Shield, landing a harsh poison and stun on me, with one attack. Err, right. Watch out for those; not so tough. Howlitzers sprout up. A little out of place, right? Ignoring my Divine Veil and +21 vitapod, a single bullet knocks an estimable half my health. Or perhaps it was one of those rotating bullets that Snarby installed thanks to the recommendations of Bowser. Is that where the insanity comes into play? I think I've missed it otherwise.
Oh but no, no no no. That's just the beginning. The lag kicks in.
"So I'm in spikes now?" "Woah, where did he come from?" "Why am I on the other side of the screen and then back again?" "Where'd my shield go!" By the first floor I've acknowledged that I must have missed a memo. The FSC is probably being fumigated. Zombies bumping zombies with Lumbers wading through the crowd, Howlitzers firing off from odd corners, and the occasional dreaded yellow aura of an Alpha Wolver about to smash you into a corner. Oh, and there's a Snarby that you can't kill and are also supposed to keep track of. I mean, you know when random spikes are going to shoot at you from any end of the fields right? Oh, and Alpha Wolver right behind you.
The Energy costs have scaled out of control by this point, but that's obviously the name of the game for OOO. 1500 CE plus elevators wasn't enough, oh no.
After an insane battle in floor two iirc, with the exciting choice of pretending that your shield can take an alpha wolver, or a block of spikes with a bunch of zombies and a lumber closing in from that direction. And every other direction too. We truck on through, barely getting through a section with zombies, kats, and lumbers. Nice to know that this is where Kats will get to shine; out of place.
We might not have made it if we hadn't met a Love Puppy. We were shocked to get to the boss floor. Shocked, exhausted, and burning out of CE. The boss, or should I say, bosses, is the end of us. The Swarm is hard to control with spikes flying here and there, and long chains of attacks from the Snarbi, at least double the bites of an Alpha Wolver. The cost is deemed too high, and we all hover around awkwardly acknowledging that the butterflies are healing them up and undoing our work as we speak.

A few tips for Shadow Lairs
-Your armor, shield, everything, it probably doesn't matter. There's enough stuff to kill you if you're prepared or not.
-Cruel to first timers, and a bit expensive for second tries.
-I hope you can fight at close quarters and see through herds, hoards, auras, and other particle effects.

My words to OOO
Eurydice, I hope there is enough evidence abound for you to take into consideration how unhappy everyone is with the current state of things. OOO, stop denying the problems on the game's end and fix them; otherwise this is a complete scam to everyone who doesn't own a supercomputer.

Answering predictable comments from other players
"No one made you run a Shadow Lair"
No, you're right. I'll go back to farming T2 and T3 like players have been doing for at least half a year like a good little, mockable, casual drone. I'm sorry for trying something new and looking at the content I've been given.
Can't think of any others really, but I can see that comment coming from a mile away.

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 19:37

Happyapathy

your very VERY late to the

your very VERY late to the shadow lair rage party

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 19:49

Khamsin

As Illidan once said - you

As Illidan once said - you are not prepared.

You went in there with a Grey Owlite shield and who knows what other type of fail gear equips. I didn't once hear a mention of Shivermist or Voltaic Tempest. You expected it to be FSC and you lost. Your only legit complaint is the lag, and honestly it isn't that bad outside of UIMF.

Again, this is not FSC. Take the content serious or it will chew you up and spit you out.

I don't want to be too insulting about it. I'm just saying, don't hate on 000. Look upon yourself for faults before pointing the finger.

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 19:59

Heavy-Duty

...

So what do you expect from this? Every game will gain more lag when more stuff are moving in a single screen. And this is a harder challenge than Vanaduke supposedly. It's supposed to be hard. If it's too tough for you (or for anyone, including me) then don't try it yet until you get a good hang of Vanaduke first. When you think he's easy, then take on the Shadow Lair. It is cruel to new players and SK is not inviting to noobs together, in all. Try to propose suggestions. What should they do for lag?! The toughness is supposed to be there. Chris wasn't perfect at it either as a "very experienced player", but at least he's trying to vanquish it. More patience if the difficulty is too tough, learn. They're still brewing up new stuff, but if you're trying to suggest stuff besides griping all about it, go to Suggestions. Complaining will solve nothing; putting new solutions along with complaints would help much more. Price? Yes it's high. That means I won't be doing any Shadow Lairs soon, and even if I did myself, I'd die before entering Basil's crossroads :/ . What does that mean? I suck. Can't even make it to Vanaduke, so yes, go back to farming if that's what you do. I don't like complaints with no answers. Epic fails are another story. Suggest something perhaps? However, I think there have already been countless protests against Key prices since the first Key has been released. Prices would not change no matter how much we complain. They're already heard because of the countless threads and most likely OOO is trying to fix that currently or not trying to in order to make money. Oh well. In summary:
-Lag Problems? Fixable- OOO may need to check on that.
-Difficulty? It's the hardest levels to date, in order to challenge those who have been grinding Vana for a month and have no other challenge to face. Please, deal with it or face numerous experienced players' complaints. Now people are complaining because it's too hard for the "endbosses" which have been defeated already numerous times.
-Prices? Set so OOO can make money off champion players, most likely if not change prices along the age of the game.
-Not noob friendly? (May not be an issue here) The game in the beginning isn't that noobie friendly in the first place.
-Complaints? Please put up suggestions that will also in turn replace this income for OOO with another thing or ideas. Otherwise, we have a bunch of crying players that won't help OOO make the better game players want. Suggestions do get read. They rarely get picked, but Suggestions is there for a reason. Put ideas. Please. Thanks for reading.

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 20:13

Xylka-Mkii

@Khamsin Based on his story,

@Khamsin
Based on his story, it sounds like Snarby did just that.

Also a few tips:

~You expected FSC, you got legit Teir 4 level that you've all been raging for. Chillax bro.
~You went in with Grey Owlite Shield when the title specifically says SHADOW Lairs. Not to mention it was Poison, which you did not have resists for I assume, and Piercing, which at best you had only one piece of that. Divine Veil + Grey Owlite Shield vs Howlitzer alone? Whoop-de-doo you have Elemental defense when the Howlitzer deals SHADOW DAMAGE.
~Ever listen to other posts? Many people already pointed out it was much harder. And they said this ONE MONTH AGO. You are REALLY late to rage.
~I don't even have a perfect computer, its a laptop, but it can run the Shadow lairs with less lag than Regular IMF, forget UIMF. Tell me your OS, Processor, and graphics card before raging at that

Biggest Flaw in your argument (besides lateness and overall unpreparedness):
Blaming Lag

Everyone has it, so if 90% of people don't rage as much as you did about it, then too bad for you. Get better support for your argument first.

And dont whip back saying: " Then why do you always blame lag in game for your deaths?"

Because we don't rant on the forums about it. Lag Spikes are bound to happen, and our natural inclination is to let everyone in the party know, but not to type up 3 paragraphs about it.

To close this up, you are viewing this much too negatively. Look at the positives:

* You know what to expect if you ever go back.
* Forgetting lag, you had a chance to see what weaknesses you had and (hopefully) learn from them.
* You learned your level of skill. ( Not to mention this was for full 5* players that have been playing for much longer than you.)
* You now know that your group in general was unprepared.

Remember when you weren't good at FSC? Same concept except now its "Teir 4".
T2 =/= T3
so T3 =/= T4
Its pretty obvious this was gonna be a lot harder considering the restrictions to you need 5* to survive, the key costs 1500CE, you have to get to T3 Basil first, and the party is Locked once you open a gate.
If that wasn't a red flag right there, then all i can say is /fail.

Khamsin probably summed up this thread best.

~Xylka

If I happen to post late its because I'm on my 3DS.

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 20:32

Xylka-Mkii

@Heavy-Duty Hi there! and i

@Heavy-Duty
Hi there! and i agree completely with you except...

"They rarely get picked..."

We suggested a Snarby set... and...
Suggestion = Win! (in that case)

Good chance this isnt a suggestion and will never be picked. Too bad. :P

Also, even the most famous and possibly best players, Chris, Magnus, Kennys-Knight, Biznasty etc., even have trouble with Shadow Lairs.
For example, Chris soloed Vanaduke without getting hit once/no deaths/ no pills (whatever he did of those).
I went to a Shadow Lair with him and he died about 7 times total.
I went with him again with his guild and he still died a few times. (not counting the trainwreck of rushing the Unknown Passage lol)

If they cant even do it perfect, there is no way you will, or I, or anyone. (prove it on youtube if you have, it'd make a great vid)

Keep running FSC and try the Lairs when you solo FSC no death. (not vana.)
That's what I'm doing, and once I get some CE, me and my Guild Master are buying Shadow keys for the guild and splitting the cost. And how do you plan to afford continuous Shadow Lair runs? How about FSC? And if you (general term for people) really are that good at FSC, then it shouldn't take long right?

/fail thread

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 20:35

Wuvvums

Sheesh, people are really

Sheesh, people are really defensive about the lag thing. Not everyone can have a godly computer, and even some people with godly computers can't run with the lag. Should we really blame the player for it?

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 20:48

Khamsin

Xylka, don't include the

Xylka, don't include the names of Guild members unless you've actually run with them in Shadow Lairs. Of the members you listed from Guild, both can defeat all three of the commonly run shadow lairs without CE revs.

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 20:52

Heavy-Duty

...

@Xylka
Yes, out of millions of threads, OOO manages to pick out a handful. It's rare, but they do check and sometimes take ideas.

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 21:02

Algol-Sixty

Just a few comments: First,

Just a few comments:

First, I've been experiencing worse lag in key spots and after doing a much smaller number of levels than before the shadow lairs release. I haven't step foot in the shadow lairs, but I can easily see lag being a legitimate complaint.

Second, as for "not coming prepared", there are those that avoid reviewing videos and such because they want to face the content with fresh eyes. Finding out that your choices of armor/weapons is far from idea isn't so bad if there wasn't such a high barrier to entry. In this respect, it would probably be better to have the elevator costs raised to 300CE, rather than have an upfront cost of 1500CE.

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 21:07

#10

Khamsin

Algol-Sixty, if you want to

Algol-Sixty, if you want to go in blind, then that's your own choice. Just don't whine about the consequences. Knowing that it is poison, pierce, and shadow with beast and undead enemies should be enough and should be obvious. I think the first time I ran it on the test server, the only mistake I made was thinking that guns would be useful against beasts, since I don't actually use antigua series on live. Otherwise the equips should seem obvious enough. The only one that isn't obvious is that you'd want Fire AND Shock for UIMF.

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 21:19

#11

Lukehandkooler

^_^

I'll share too!

Luke: You guys wanna go look at a strategy first?

Luke: Thats a zergling Lester...

Party member 2: OMG I just ran in!

Party member 3: Stick to the plan! stick to the plan!?!

Party Member 4: What plan?

Luke: ZoMg! Im on fire and covered in gunpowder and hornets!

Luke: Guys... guys?

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 00:20

#12

Eclecticmessiah

no ce rev ufsc? hmmmm.... i

no ce rev ufsc? hmmmm.... i dont believe it unless khamsin is present! give yourself more credit khamsin haha you are the reason anyone does UFSC with no ce revs. speaking of which get back to your parents house already lol

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 03:32

#13

Coneykrab

Whoops

I knew that my Grey Owlite Shield wasn't the best choice. But I didn't think much of it because honestly, I've never seen anyone take a full blast from an Alpha Wolver; let alone multiple hits from a few of them. I'll recreate the list of my friends' equips as close as I can.

Me
-Levi Blade
-Voltaic Tempest
-Umbra Driver (Was this a bad choice? Perhaps. I was expecting Wolvers though, and not much gunning to be done. I ended up running and gunning hoards of zombies and it wasn't painful. Keep in mind that my complaints did not include the length.)
-Grey Owlite Shield
-Azure Guardian Armor
-Divine Veil

Friend 1
-Barbarous Thorn Blade
-Divine Avenger (turned out to be a fair choice)
-Either a Silversix/AP or a Pulsar type
-Snarby set
-Barbarous Thorn Shield

Friend 2
-Probably a Furious Flamberge
-Perhaps he had a Cataclyzer type as well
-Ash tail set
-Grey owlite shield
Keep in mind that we knew he was underequipped. We weren't expecting cake, no. But we also weren't expecting close-quarter madness.

Friend 3
-Ash of Agni
-Definitely a Pulsar-type
-Divine Avenger/Gran Faust
-A bomber set
-Pierce shield
This friend too knew he didn't have the right armor for the job, but this has always been the case. He has a large bunch of bombs in his position, and he's able to run and bomb without taking much damage. The only thing stopping him was the lag.

Did we come fully decked out? No, we didn't. Would it have helped much? Not if we were all fighting half-blindly in close-quarters, getting clawed at and circled. Were we expecting to get through unscathed? No. That would have been ridiculous.

To those saying that I'm late to the rage, that's just a terrible comment. It was a problem. Nothing has changed about it. Therefore, it's still a problem. My friends and I tried it when we all had the time and had some preparations made.

To the developers; not only am I asking you to fix the lag, but there need to be more graphic options. I, not speaking for my friends, was partially blinded during the large battles in small rooms. Wolver leaves and misty auras everywhere. Brambles blending in with ease. It was hard to determine when spikes were coming up or not, and there wasn't enough time to ponder it.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 04:00

#14

Coneykrab

Ah, and also

We had frequently discussed how many of these things wouldn't have happened if the lag was under control. No appearing in bramble or teleporting here and there, and no staggering through a crowd of zombies. But it would still be nice if the graphics could be altered so the bramble stood out more, and if the wolver leaves could be turned down, perhaps the radius effects of the status bombs too. :)

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 04:06

#15

Paweu

"Was this a bad choice?

"Was this a bad choice? Perhaps. I was expecting Wolvers though"
I don't even

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 04:15

#16

Coneykrab

My point there was

I didn't have much else to bring so I stuck my gun in there to help finish leveling it up (No complaints about the heat we got. :) ) It ended up being decently helpful with the misfit monsters.

Also, what is the insanity part of this dungeon? Is Snarby losing his mind because he can't stand his temporary undead residents and their friends (Howlitzers) staying at his place much longer while they get the FSC fumigated? Or is it just the "more poison than usual" type thing?

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 08:27

#17

Biznasty

Shadow Lairs aren't really as

Shadow Lairs aren't really as difficult to deal with as you imagine, although a lot of practice and experience is needed to do "smooth" runs, so it's pretty obvious first timers will have a pretty tough time. I'd recommend to take 1-2 experienced players with you, and before anything, consult with skilled players for tips on strategies, gear, how to approach specific situations, etc.

After checking your loadouts, I can notice one major flaw: No shivermist. Although Voltaic Tempest is also very helpful, it cannot stand up to Shivermist. It might aswell be a flaw in the design of the Shadow Lairs, but a Shivermist bomber is pretty much crucial to any Shadow Lair run. (except URJP) Perhaps not spamming it all the time, but using it every now and then, at least at the start of a wave, is important for crowd control. While it might seem to you that Shadow Lairs are just a big ass mess of mobs and bullets everywhere, that's only really because you came with no experience or strategies; It's ridiculously easier if you approach it with a careful and organized strategy, and sort out specific mobs to kill while others keep control of the rest, etc.

In all honesty, I don't find Shadow Lairs to be that hard; If you've got a well-geared experienced party, that can teamwork and think of appropriate strategies for every major encounter, you will not have that much trouble. First time trips can be painful, yes, but meh - It didn't take me more than four or five runs to successfully run a no CE revs UFSC, for example. I believe I did a no CE rev URJP on my first run, and UGW on second. Haven't run UIMF enough yet.

Not gonna disagree that lag is a major issue though; Java is a snitch. I recommend making sure you have no lag at all before starting, or hell, before any encounter. Restart your computer before you start the run, and restart your client (Task Manager > Processes > End javaw.exe and restart the client) whenever there is a major encounter, or at the start of each depth. And obviously, try running on the lowest quality settings possible.

I think if anything the issue in here is that you don't really know what to expect and have to pay for the shadow key no matter what; If there was some way to practice Shadow Lairs without gaining any loot or spending anything, I'm pretty sure this would be far easier for general players. Right now, your best bet is to really consult with experienced players and perhaps bring one or two with you.

@Insanity thing - Might wanna check the wiki for info on that, if you don't mind spoilers. The artifacts page should have enough information, I think.

@ConeyKrab - random note - Kelgis here, if you remember me! Haven't talked to you in a good while, though I noticed you around the game and forums. If you ever need any help with Shadow Lairs, you can hook me up.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 12:16

#18

Gnomesrock

I was rolling with Full

I was rolling with Full Skolver, Barb Thorn Shield, Voltedge, giga pulsar, DA, and barb thorn blade
- sure i was somewhat safe from wolvers(not really) and i had no shadow protection what so ever
2 of my friends were using vog armor

the 4th person was using Divine Veil

so we were all gimped from shadow basically
we all made it through to snarby and the unknown passageonly spent about 120 energy on revives(total)but heres a defence we all had minus you guys

common sense
think about that for a bit

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 12:24

#19

Martinsen

USE SOME SPACE BRO.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 14:06

#20

Coneykrab

Hehe Kelgis

I noticed you when I got linked to the photo album of yours that housed the armor stats. :)

The same bomber friend (Zelja, remember him? :D) has a 4* Shivermist. I suppose I'll tell him that it's useful. It's definitely a good point that unless you want someone to in essence, spoil the fun for you, you're going to waste a shadow key, if not a lot of CE. There should at least be a better "mission briefing" that's accessible before the Shadow Key is used.

Besides a few tactical changes, I doubt armor can help us much. We'd need Shadow, Pierce, and Elemental to account for everything in there. A jack of all trades is a master of none. Elemental shields can't withstand the blow of a lumber. Pierce shields can't even withstand a combo from alpha wolvers. Divine Veil still has me taking 1/2 my health from Howlitzers. I suppose my best course of action is to invest in a shadow shield.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 15:27

#21

Khamsin

Shivermist is good for all

Shivermist is good for all "hard" content unless there's some specific gimmick against it. That should be obvious by now.

Anyways, the point is that you can't be perfectly defended against all types. Sometimes, you're going to get hurt when you get hit. Gear to what is going to hit you the most.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 15:46

#22

Gwenyvier

Elemental defense is not

Elemental defense is not really needed for Snarby's Lair. There's a few Lumbers, but that is the extent of the Elemental damage. Lumbers are slow and fairly easy to dodge, try to be careful on them and you should be fine.

The main damage types are Piercing (Wolvers, Chromalisks, and Snarbies) and Shadow (Howlitzers, Zombies, and Kats). For armor you pretty much have to decide which you fear more, the Piercing or the Shadow, as splitting your armor is just going to make you food for both (as the OP found out when he got hit by a Howlitzer bullet). Personally I go Skolver since the Snarbies do Piercing. Deadshot, Dread Skelly, and Justifier sets would work also. If you're feeling ballsy you could use Radiant Silvermail as its the ONLY armor to naturally give both Piercing and Shadow defense along with Poison resist... no Normal defense though and you're going to have to pick a helm to focus against one or the other.

The same goes for your shield, don't waste your time with Grey Owlite unless its your only 5* shield. It gives Normal/Elemental (again, Elemental is only done by the few Lumbers) and Shock/Fire resist... which there's exactly none of in Snarby's Lair. A much better choice is Dread Skelly (Shadow/Poison), Barbarous Thorn (Piercing/sword damage bonus), or Crest of Almire (Shadow and nothing worth mentioning).

Weapons vary by your class, but everybody should carry a gun of some kind to peg the Howlitzers safely. Polaris and Blitz being the most popular and both are useful here, although Polaris shines more until you hit the boss floor. Alchemers of your choice, any except Shadowtech, are also useful. If you're a bomber you should be bringing Shivermist and DBB. Gunner I have not a clue. Swordies should have a Flourish/Snarby sword and DA/Brandish sword (not Acheron).

Aside from the advice other people have given the only other thing I can add is the last room of the 2nd floor, Snarby shows up once per wave. When he's hit with the bell he disappears until the next wave. Make it a priority to get rid of him asap and you will have a higher chance of surviving. This option is not available in the room he shows up in on the first floor, you'll just have to deal.

Next time you go in be better prepared and you should do much better. :) Best of luck.

~Gwen

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 15:52

#23

Njthug

Like everyone else already

Like everyone else already told you....you just need to make sure all of your group members have the right gear. Its pretty easy if you have the right gear and a pretty good strategy (when to bomb what type of bomb to use etc.).I don't think you can blame Three Rings for lack of well you not being prepared you can blame them for lag though, but you can always restart your java that usually helps.

Sun, 11/06/2011 - 12:52

#24

Generalbird

My Rabid Snarbolax Run

So, we beat our way all the way to Rabid Snarbolax.

I spent 1000 CE, 20000 crowns, and a shadow key to get all the way to Rabid Snarbolax, then there was a bug and we couldn't beat it. So, a op came and killed it for us. Then, since we were all dead, they made us revive one of ourselves for 640 CE, then pretty much left us for dead at the elevator. Then we died on the next level because we couldn't revive anymore because of the bugged Snarbolax. So we died in vain, with nothing to show for it.

That's my story of a shadow lair.

Search

A Story of a Shadow Lair (and why I think they're rip-offs)