not to be skeptical but do you have the current stats for both leviathan and CIV? CIV may not have gotten any stronger, but maybe Leviathan got nerfed? I'd just like to see it for myself, since the undead damage doesnt mean much to me... may end up having to switch my route here!

ok then now we need someone with a CIV!

i thought i had already figured out the pros and cons of this one. dont care about how one looks vs the other, just the damage it does!

My guess is Levi does no more than a grand 10 damage more than CIV does, save Undead-types. Now, CIV has a High boost on Undead-types, so relative to this tiny bit more Levi does on everything else, I'd say CIV would do 50 more to Undead-types. Even 50 itself is not all the helpful, let alone 10. Do you think when you're fighting T3 monsters that 10 more damage per swing is really going to help at all? You'll still kill them in, say, 3 hits anyways. At least with CIV you're doing 100 more damage per 2 hits, so you might actually kill the Undead-type with fewer hits. (I know these numbers are not exact, but the relative value is what counts.)

If you ask me, the tiny bonus on the Levi (if any, as rumored) would be so minuscule it would not even help, whereas CIV provides a noticeable increase in damage. Do you see what I'm getting at?

(Also, I have two CIVs. One is Lv10 and the other is currently Lv1, but with a UV of "Damage Bonus vs Undead: High" - the same as the natural bonus - maxing out this "super" CIV's damage bonus vs Undead.)

The stats of both appear to be identical. I have even gone into paint and matched up the length of the damage bars: they are exactly the same length. Though, recently the bars of anything have not meant much, as there are already so many tooltips with inaccurate images. (For example, the Faust and Avenger appear to have totally different speeds, yet both have the actual same speed.)

Since they are 4* and 5* recipes you can find the 4* CIC recipe at the second and third terminals, and the 5* CIV recipe at the third terminal.

makes sense aeca. i guess i will stick with the CIV plan then :)

Conrad, my point is that the little bit of damage Levi gives is almost too small to notice (if there truly even is one). I cannot say for sure whether or not Levi even does have a higher attack, because I do not have a Lv10 Levi to try it out with. Also, I'm not sure where you are getting this "E" business from, because the words above the bar say "Normal", not "Damage", not to mention that the bars are actually identical in length when maxed (Levi does start out noticeably higher). (You can screen shot them both and compare them in Paint if you want.)

I'm using the 10 damage as an example, for the sake of relativity. The point is, the amount of damage extra that CIV does to Undead-types is far more than the extra that Levi apparently does to everything else. Why? Because there are 4 (or 5?) other types of monsters that Levi would technically be "better" against. Thus, it is only logical that such a bonus on the Levi would be vastly smaller than the single bonus on the CIV.

Consider the following example:

You are fighting a jelly (500 HP) with your CIV, and it takes 5 hits at 100 damage each. You then fight one with a Levi, and do 120 damage with each hit. After 4 hits you've only done 80 damage extra, putting you at a total of 480, which is not going to change the fact that it still takes you 5 hits total, as you will need 1 more hit to hit the 500 mark.

Now: you are fighting a zombie (also 500 HP) with your Levi, and it takes 5 hits at 120 damage each, as before. You then fight one with your CIV, and do a massive 180 damage with each hit (because the bonus is obviously much bigger). We now see that you kill the zombie in only 3 hits: 180*3 = 540.

All in all: more damage is utterly meaningless if it still takes the same amount of hits. Though there may be some monsters that are killed in less-than-x hits, because the overlap is small enough, the only general scenario a tiny bit more damage is really going to help in, is if you are fighting a boss (but that in itself is a whole other discussion).

QED.                                                                                                     ▉

I'm not saying that CIV is better than Levi, I am just trying to disprove all of these theories about "more damage" being better. I don't know about you, but I would much rather slaughter zombies and kats in a considerably smaller amount of hits, than be a bit closer to having one hit knocked off of my kill time for everything else.

Also, if you ask me, I'd rather have a noticeable difference in one category than a barely noticeable difference in a few others. Neither do I mind seeking out the materials and whatnot for one of my favourite weapons in the game. (Not to mention the fact that I hate zombies.)

As a side-note for any future critics: please be sure to read my post through entirely before attempting to make any points against it.

Conrad specifically stated he was using the word "damage": "as in it is on top of the E in damage"... But that's not important anyways.

I can assure you that the bars are visually identical. Look at them in-game. I have just checked them again, for the third time, and they are identical in length.

Regardless, this is not the crux of my argument. In fact, in my above argument, I was actually assuming that Levi did have the higher base damage.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7602/civvslevidamagebars.png

But there is no guarantee bars are accurate, as I've said before.

Assuming the bars are correct, Levi does start out stronger, however they both balance out by Lv10. If the damage difference is rounded down pixel-wise, then I'm sure it's nothing to even consider.

Anyways, sorry if I come off as sounding confrontational. I don't mean it to sound this way at all. I'm just trying to end all of these rumors, and back up either possibility with a logical explanation.

In the end, it would make sense for CIV's general damage to be slightly lower than that of Levi's, though in this case refer to my previous argument. However, it would also make sense for CIV to be just plain better, as it is much harder to alchemize than Levi.

I've updated the stats image on the wiki to displace any further confusion. (Though the wiki is going slow right now, so it may take a while for the image to synchronize.) I didn't even realize it was out-of-date when I uploaded the new screen shot art for CIV...

I have to agree with Conrad on this part: Get an Avenger-series blade for the undead.

If you are planning your gear around the current end-game, keep in mind that Firestorm Citadel is basically 95% undead, 5% fiends. Avengers are the best way to deal with them in my opinion, which means that a Leviathan Blade would be better to use for everything else. But if you really don't want an Avenger, go for CIV.

personally im just looking for a 5-star sword to get me from top to bottom without necessarily beating any bosses. then im going to work on crafting more specific sets of weapons/protective gear to tackle challenges like bosses. would be good to beat up on undead, enjoy tackling graveyards.

I did a T2 run with a friend today. I have an Ascended Calibur and he has a Cold Iron Vanquisher. We both have equipment that gives a Medium bonus to sword damage (I have Dusker set; he has Ash Tail set). In a graveyard on floor 10, I was doing 97 damage against the zombies while he was doing 107 damage. However, on floor 11, while I was still doing 97 damage against all enemies, my friend only did 92 damage!

Keep in mind that Ascended Calibur is a 4* weapon. All of our equipment was maxed so its not an issue of uneven comparison. What's going on here?!

I just crafted a new Ascended Calibur. At Lv1 it's doing 95 damage against Beasts at depth 9. That's only 2 damage less than my Lv10 AC (97 damage) and still 4 more than my friend's Lv10 CIV (91 damage).

Levi's charge attack (and all its attacks) are the same in form as CIV, but the damage is not identical. Levi does more damage in general, and CIV does more damage to undead, of course, as the tooltip suggests. However, they both have the same three-strike combo and 360 degree spin attack that all the calibur line has.

Just because the bars are 'maxed' doesn't mean they can't still keep going, look at the dang stonetort/omega, that bar is practically maxed on the first item.
'oh, the levi only does X more damage, it's nothing'
it IS something if you land Y hits with it...so... X*Y = all the damage you lose without it.

Or just have every weapon and not worry, fin.

Levi does more damage than CIV, I had both lines, so I know. Got rid of my CIV for being a crappy sword. As a matter of fact, the damage gap between the two sword is so ridiculous that Levi ends up doing around the same amount of damage to undead than a CIV

Edit: Actually, if you check out this forum post, you'll see many other players complaining about how Cold Iron line SUCKS. http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/4205

@Shanks. Ah, I remember that post. Good times.

I'm surprised no one has added number for the Levi on wiki yet.
Just a casual bump.

For me, the problem between the two swords isn't really the damage per blow they deal. My only problem with the CIV is that it has miniscule knock-back compared to the Leviathan. I know this may be a good thing to some people though (Levi-charging noobs sending a lumber flying into you and all), but I use my Leviathan's charge to protect my gunners and other teammates. In my opinion, the reason to not have tremendous knock-back is to land more, if not all, of your hits with a charge, i.e. the cutter series. For me, if the the CIV didn't have any knock-back and got to land every blow in a charge shot, I would totally get it. But, since the sword only knocks enemies far enough away that it can't land the last two hits, it isn't worth me getting it. Especially since the enemies you're hitting are still in range to strike back! If I'm only going to land one hit on an enemy I want the enemies to fly across the screen where they have no hope of hurting me or my cohorts! >:D

I don't know. What do y'all think? Ô_o