Which Alchemy paths would you recommend following? Definitely leaning towards CIV instead of LB unless there's something I'm missing. Don't know which antigua path is better either. Opinions please?
Cold Iron Vanquisher vs Leviathan Blade/ Silversix vs Blackhawk
Wed, 04/13/2011 - 19:33
Wed, 04/13/2011 - 19:42
#2
Shadow
lmao dont get me started with levi and CIV xD, but for guns i think you should go for black hawk since it has shadow damage and if you get its final upgrade the charge attack is phenomenal from what Ive seen also the silversix only has piercing damage if im correct for swords just message Aeca he probably knows more me and him were kinda discussing it ingame :B
Wed, 04/13/2011 - 19:58
#3
I will see once and for all!
I just crafted a Calibur (as in, just before the downtime) with a speed bonus (Low) so I might as well take advantage of it and make it into a Levi. I will see once and for all if Levi actually does do more damage save undead, despite the identical damage bars. Hoorah!
Wed, 04/13/2011 - 19:48
#4
Blackhawk is useless.
Blackhawk is useless.
Wed, 04/13/2011 - 19:53
#5
really ?
can you explain more magnus ? im curious :B since im about to get a blackhawk id like to know the pros of it
Wed, 04/13/2011 - 19:59
#6
I think he thinks it's
I think he thinks it's useless because of the split damage type, everything that's weak to shadow is strong to pierce and vice versa. :3
Wed, 04/13/2011 - 20:00
#7
http://wiki.spiralknights.com
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Damage
Look at the chart. Get a Silversix, dominate the firestorm citadel, enjoy. If you need to use guns on slimes something is wrong with you, they're like the easiest mob in the game.
Wed, 04/13/2011 - 20:01
#8
And anything neutral to both
And anything neutral to both dodges constantly, namely wolvers and gremlins, at which point it's better to just use a punch gun.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 00:48
#9
Well....
The LEVI does slightly more DMG at the start than the CIV. So you'll have more *umph* to start.
But since they both have the same speed and max dmg, doesn't it just make sense to go with the one that has added bonus against Undead?
Unless its all about the cosmetics, then this whole convo is moot :)
Don't know much about the guns though...
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 01:47
#10
Argent/Sentenza thing is
Argent/Sentenza thing is purely preference.
The damage they do on monsters is about the same whether its effective or not, so it's not like it matters.
I like the Sentenza because Gremlins can't dodge while they're doing another animation, like swinging around trying to hit me.
And when they're bunched up around a healer, knocking them about with a charge attack is just plain fun.
Undead don't really pose a threat and if you want Elemental/Piercing damage, Radiant Sun Shards does a way better job than the Argent Peacemaker anyway.
But really, the Antigua line is just outclassed in the sense that they do not have a status effect, whereas most other 5-star guns do.
So unless you don't have four weapon slots, they're not worth getting.
On the CIV/Levi side of things, I don't think it actually matters.
In the long run, CIV is easier to craft, the recipe just takes longer to get cause of the vendors.
The Levi requires rarer materials, so you rely on drops/Tokens to get it instead.
The damage difference is negligible.
I would personally pick the CIV cause it just looks cooler (badumtss?), but at the same time, since the Leviathan Blade is the vanilla/baseline sword, it's probably a safer bet since there's less chance it will be nerfed somewhere down the line.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 01:57
#11
I don't know if the CIV
I don't know if the CIV actually evens out versus the LB at level 10. Still, the difference is small enough that I'd probably rather carry a CIV.
As for Silversix vs Sentenza... honestly both of these guns need buffed or changed. Right now, Silversix is definitely the better choice for T3 as fiend/undead is what you're going to be dealing with most in Firestorm Citadel.
Still, the design of both guns is kind of dumb as it leaves you at a damage disadvantage against 4 of 6 enemy types no matter which one you choose. The bonus damage from enemy weakness is lesser than the damage resistance of an enemy's resistance; that is, you aren't "neutral" to anything because if they're weak to one element but strong to the other, you'll deal less than standard Normal damage.
I'd rather see Normal instead of Piercing on both of these guns - at the very least, Sentenza. Piercing/Shadow is a terrible combination of damage types. I personally don't think weapons this expensive should be as niche as they currently are. The Sealed Sword lines certainly are not. I'd also like to see them just deal slightly more damage in general.
Edit - Also, like Shoebox mentions, there are generally better guns for any job these guns can do with status effects to boot.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 04:14
#12
The Leviathan retains the
The Leviathan retains the full 360 degree slash as a charged up attack, it can hit things up to a total of 3 times and has slightly longer reach then the earlier weapons in the series allowing your weapon to reach over low walls etc.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 04:15
#13
Does the CIC/CIV not have the
Does the CIC/CIV not have the same 360 degree charge attack?
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 10:31
#14
The CIV has the same charge style as the Levi.
The CIV has the full 360 swing attack, can hit 3 times, and all of the same Levi does. Truly, the only difference between them is that CIV looks much be- err, CIV has the "Bonus Damage vs Undead: High", and the Levi (apparently) does a tad more damage to everything else. This is still to be actually confirmed, though I have a Lv10 CIV and am working on a Levi (the Sun Silver is my only remaining obstacle).
Though, for any of the 360 charge weapons, the only way to really hit monsters 3 times with the charge is if you have them cornered or they are the type that does not get knocked back. By the time the first hit lands, out in the open, the monster has already been knocked back and thus is not hit with the remaining hit(s). You can often get in 2 hits, but I'm pretty sure it's nearly impossible to get all 3 hits out in the open on, say, a jelly.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 11:29
#15
Nice to know that CIV is
Nice to know that CIV is better. It looks awesome.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 11:34
#16
Leviathan is technically
Leviathan is technically better, but not by enough to stress out about it.
You all need more Khorovods in your life.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 11:50
#17
How is it technically better?
How is it technically better?
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 12:31
#18
Slightly better damage to all
Slightly better damage to all but undead. Nothing big.
I see more CIVs than Leviathans, so obviously it's not big enough a difference to affect people.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 12:43
#19
The Emo Blade
I have too many swords to play with. One can never have too many toys to play with. Since I train many weapons passively in extra weapon slots to craft for friends and customers, by the time a weapon line is in stage four, I have an idea how the weapon fits in playing style vs. what I will be fighting.
I've been holding onto the Khorovod recipe. Waiting for the 5 star recipe to be released. Stun is a nice feature to have for mechanites. Since I have a Mega Magnus gun, I haven't seen a great need to craft the Troika line lie of swords yet.
My preference is Lev for general farming. CIV for undead rampage. I like the way both swords handle and their abilility to kill many monster types in a few swings. CIV is stylishly an emo blade. Goes great with people who enjoy the un-color black. For endgame use, CIV is more endgame oriented towards Citadel. Personally, I enjoy both blades for serious farming and use which ever blade kills a mob class more efficiently so I can farm faster.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 15:30
#20
So how is it technically
So how is it technically better to do less damage to undead?
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 15:40
#21
Ok, let's say Leviathan does
Ok, let's say Leviathan does 100 damage. CIV does like, 94 damage, but it does 110 to undead.
It's 'technically better', but the difference isn't bothered with.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 17:41
#22
Just to confirm about
Just to confirm about Leviathan's power: It's generally about 33% stronger than CIV. (Meaning, if CIV deals 150, Leviathan will be 200. CIV will be around 230 on undead, I think? Haven't actually tested undead)
After having confirmed this on my last Vanaduke run, it feels kind of silly that they both have the same power bar. It's misleading. (...then again tons of things in-game and wiki are misleading)
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 16:16
#23
Yeah. We need numbers instead
Yeah. We need numbers instead of bars for players who actually care about this stuff.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 16:19
#24
Oh, I didn't know they're
Oh, I didn't know they're that vast difference by tier 3. I only rarely use both through my tier 3 half-runs.
Well, CIV is also easier to make material-wise.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 16:32
#25
@ Kakelgis: Are you serious?
@ Kakelgis: Are you serious? Time to make my Leviathan Blade then..
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 17:13
#26
I would like to see solid numbers.
I would like to see solid numbers. I don't know who would not. Or at the very least, a quantification separate from tooltips, perhaps on the wiki.
Aside from that, the only way we can solve this once and for all is to get a party with a Lv10 CIV and a Lv10 Levi, neither with any damage UVs, and see what the output is on an undead, and then a non-undead. Again, they must both be solid Level 10s, otherwise it could be inaccurate, as Levi supposedly starts higher to begin with.
Also, you'd have to make sure it was the exact same monster type. Throw a hit on a lichen with Levi Lv10, then throw another with CIV Lv10. See how much the difference is. Try another monster. Etc. When it comes to undead, you'd have to do a bit more fiddling there to relate it with other monsters.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 17:20
#27
Argh! But I'm
Argh! But I'm laaaaaaazy.
I'll trade you a join Guild.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 17:32
#28
On T3
What Kakelgis said is pretty much the norm regarding Lev and and CIV. Don't rely on the bar line. It's like adding additional health via Vitapod. At some point, the health bar maxes out even with the additional health stats. Someone with a Vitapod+10 will have the same health bar as another character with the same armor and a Vitapod+8.
You come to appreciate the full power what both blades are capable of at T3. If you have the resources, get both. One for general farming and one for undead bashing. Or get lucky and craft a UV Leviathan with undead damage bonus or a UV CIV with additional attack bonus.
I'm still waiting on a 5 star upgrade to Troika line. Need a blade to whack at T3 wolvers to keep them from teleporting when you initially hit one. Pesky buggers.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 18:27
#29
So the sword debate has gone
So the sword debate has gone nowhere, people are still unsure of how much more damage leviathan blade does, if it does any.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 19:16
#30
What? No, we're sure.
What? No, we're sure. Leviathan does more on non-undead.
Bars are just horse manure and should not be trusted.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 19:34
#31
Ugh.
Regardless, there is no telling exactly how much stronger they are than each other depending, until we get someone with a Lv10 of both.
Even on top of this: what if things change? What if their bonuses change altogether? What if- so on. I think to really settle things, and to stop all of these comparison sorts of posts from coming up, we need - yup, you guessed it - NUMBERS!
If the Devs don't even have the bars straight, who's to say the actual stats are? I'm not saying that in any manner to put down the Devs, not at all, I'm just literally saying this: if the bars are not even right, there's even less to be said about the confidence of the actual stats.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 19:58
#32
Okay but how much more damage
Okay but how much more damage does a Leviathan Blade do? Is it "30%" better in terms of damage than a CIV? Cause that's quite a bit just for some extra damage to the undead..
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 20:21
#33
I kind of told you guys about
I kind of told you guys about the damage comparison in that post. :v
It was really just about that much: On Vanaduke's head and body, CIV would deal 169, while Magnus' Leviathan was dealing 210 or so, I believe. Both were at level 10.
We didn't get to test it on zombies, but from memory, CIV deals 240+ damage on them. I might be wrong, though. My memory is an apple.
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 20:22
#34
Aw. Why does the cool looking
Aw. Why does the cool looking one have to be the crappier one. ):
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 20:30
#35
@kakelgis - were you guys
@kakelgis - were you guys both wearing the same armors? No +sword damage modifier discrepancy between the two of you?
@StevenMagnet - personally I would like CIV more if it didn't have the dumb chain wrapped around it. I need to cut with that part! Who designed that thing?
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 09:56
#36
...
The chaaaiiiinnn... is awesome.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 11:56
#37
We're the best players in the
We're the best players in the game, Wallach. We know what we're doing and saying about this stuff.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 14:34
#38
People can be great at
People can be great at playing and terrible at testing. It was a simple yes/no question.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 15:45
#39
@ Aeca
Shhhhhhhh. Don't say: what if things change? What if their bonuses change altogether? What if- so on.
Someone might change things. I'm not sure if all changes will be good. Interesting, maybe. (Said jokingly...)
Imagine the work of having to redo all the stats and pictures on recipe cards to reflect a more accurate bar for 5* gear that goes beyond the current bar line maximums. Every time a new endgame recipe is introduced which exceeds current maximum, the bars need to be changed once again for all recipes. Numbers would be great or percentages from a baseline bar cap.
A parser to collect damage data would be nice to help the players who take pride in creating an accurate and informative SK Wiki would be even more wonderful. That way, the best players who pioneer the path to harder floors can focus on the game rather than stopping and writing down damage data, change gear, write some more, change gear again on different mob, write some more.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 17:45
#40
Give us some numbers, and everything is fixed.
If you ask me, players shouldn't need to do any of this themselves anyways. The game is about having fun, and so we should not have to worry about recording and generating information that should be given to us. It's hard to have fun without some of it being drowned when you figure out that a weapon with half a bar more speed is actually no faster...
The Devs really just need to give us some numbers, period. Get rid of the bars, because as Iceni said, if one more weapon comes in with power over the previous maximum, everything has to be changed. This is nonsense. Give us some numbers, and everything is fixed.
As for CIV vs Levi, I have bad news. I can confirm kakalgis' report, whereas CIV is not much stronger on undead than Levi is on everything else. As in, the damage Levi does to everything else is almost the damage CIV has over Levi on undead. However, CIV is definitely more useful in FSC, if you do not have a DA. Being as Vana becomes gun-only upon stage 3, there is no comparison between CIV and Levi here anyways.
Mon, 04/18/2011 - 10:48
#41
So I just crafted my CIV. I
So I just crafted my CIV. I saw that its attack power (according to the bars) was equal to that of the Leviathan's so I saw no reason not to get it. I'd searched the boards before, to see what people thought about it. I generally saw people recommending it over the Levi (the people recommending it likely basing their opinion on the bars). I guess I should have done some more research /today/, because a lot has been revealed in the last week or so.
So the CIV sucks and I basically wasted all the time and money I spent on getting it.
Really, I think it should have the same normal attack as the leviathan as well as the bonus damage to undead. IDespite what every body seems to be saying, I think it's harder to craft. Perhaps the levi could have a bonus against something else to balance things out, though...
I might send an email to the devs, because the CIV seems pretty redundant as it is.
Mon, 04/18/2011 - 17:42
#42
Ha
Lol Magnus.
Sat, 04/23/2011 - 23:11
#43
Thread Necro! Went to Depth
Thread Necro!
Went to Depth 25 (Wolver Den: Raving Rabids) to test out damage on CIV and Leviathan.
On the first Rabid Wolver, Leviathan was hitting for 182 while CIV was hitting for 179.
On all other mobs on that floor, including Rabid Wolvers, Alpha Rabid Wolvers, Virulisks, and Silkwings, Leviathan was hitting for 195 while CIV was hitting for 179.
Neither weapons have any damage vs beast or fiend UVs.
I was wearing Vob Cub, so not damage bonus there either.
I don't know why Leviathan hit for 182 on the first Rabid Wolver, but I think it's pretty consistent in the rest of the data.
So judging from my experiment the difference is only about 9%, unlike the 30% difference reported by some other players.
The CIV/Levi issue seems to be coming up a lot.
Start with this thread, please: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/3205#comment-17214
As for Blackhawk/Silversix, well, I don't have much of a preference there. I only went with Silversix because it matches my outfit better, heh.