I'll have to disagree with you there. This game is part of a business. You play, you're a customer.
Well, at least we can play for free, I suppose. Sure it's a little slower, but it's still free. P2Pers are more of the customer category though, cuz they actually PAY for the extras.
@Rangerwill The way you wrote the post was pretentious and made you sound like a [rear]. And I very much doubt you had more than you claimed to have, but nice try.
A few things.
One, I don't want to start a war here. Because I actually like you.
Two, something had ticked me in real life that might have influenced my post a little bit.
And three, I think you misunderstood me. I meant that I had more Crowns and CE at a time, I stated how many I had now then.
And I wouldn't cross with the GM's after they said watch your language.. just a piece of advice.
Sorry if I sounded like a jerk, all I was trying to do was point out that this game gives plenty of opportunities for free players.
Cheers,
~W
-At my age I still live with my parents and can't get a job.
-I'm above 13 years old of course
-My parents won't use any money to buy CE
-Dad says,"It's just a computer game".
-Mom says,"When you get older for a job".
-I say,"Well it is just a game".
See? Not everyone has means to buy ce. There are problems for some people that the other side haven't considered.
Of course, I doubt F2P really consider how irritated the P2P are getting having to explain what I did earlier over and over as more people complain.
Again, no offence. I'm F2P myself, remember?
If I had a nickel everytime someone calls CE sellers "greedy"....
It's actually F2P players that are "greedy" (by your definition, it's actually simple economics and has nothing to do with greed). F2P players -- actually anyone who buys CE, but you get the point -- are the ones making CE more expensive. Every time someone buys CE, the price goes up. Every time someone sells CE, the price goes down.
This really should not be hard to understand. Quit calling CE sellers greedy (BTW, I'm a F2P player as well)
Yeah, F2P buy the CE, so the cost will go to the next offer.
But remember that more often than not (cuz some F2P players will be selling it for profit too), a P2P player is the one who put the next up offer. And the next, and the next etcetc...
Whenever I sell something on the AH, I usually put it up slightly cheaper that the lowest Buynow price. I know not everyone works like that.
So like I said, it's a 2-way thing, it's just that one side is more prone to complaining about it, and the other side to complaining about the complainers.
Everyone just needs to just sit down and put the knives away. Really, business is a cut-throat thing, but we aren't really supposed to cut each others throats.
F2P is too quick to jump to conclusions that P2P are being tight-assed penny pinchers, and P2P are to quick to say that F2Pers are just greedy couch potatoes who want everything free and now.
Again note that this is generalisticly speaking, cannot speak for everyone, apologies for coarser language, but I gotta be blunt. No offence etcetcetc...
"Each category has their own needs. The F2P want the ce, and the P2P want the cr (well, pretty much. I can't speak for everyone.)"
All F2P players need CE since it is a pre-requisite to getting items above 2*, and therefore a pre-requisite for access to T3.
Not All P2P players need crowns, in principle they can still get them through the clockwork. The biggest crown sink (outside this week-end thing in the AH) is Punch, and while people want UVs, it is not a pre-requisite to experience the entire content the game has to offer. Granted, some high end items do get listed in the AH requiring crowns, but at least as much are listed in the forums, requiring CE.
So while it is technically correct that each side have their own need as a whole, I'd say that F2P need CE far more than P2P need crowns. As such, it is overall a sellers market. Yes prices do go up and down, and sometime there is more demand for crowns especially when OOO intervenes in various ways.
"Each side, not knowing exactly what it's like for the other side to have to deal with what they do, now engage in a rage war over it."
There is a difference between not knowing, and not caring. After all, at least some P2P players were at one point F2P. They probably know what it's like, it may even be part of the reason they went P2P. But no one would like to admit that they are putting their interest above others, it is not the most irrational behaviour. P2P care for themselves and their friends. They may give or sell CE cheaply to their friends. But as for the other thousands of faceless players bidding for it? Why would they choose to sell it for any lower than the highest they possibly could? I do not want to generalise across everyone, there may be saints out there, but I think that you can understand perfectly what it's like to be on the other side yet not be on the same side.
I reckon that the average P2P player do not really care that much. They aren't the ones starting threads asking for CE prices to be higher when there is a dip, so that they have more crowns to roll UVs. The average F2P.. probably care, but will get on with it (psychologically, it is a big difference from 6k to 6.6k). But every now and then, we have threads like those, which at best contains a naive plan doomed to fail, and at worst contains digs towards other players. Which results in others replying in kind. And they never get anywhere, since no one can uniformly agree on the fair price of CE. Not even F2P players amongst themselves.
Well, my argument about P2P needing the cr was shortened a bit.
In one of my earlier posts, I stated that they would sell it for a quick cr boost, instead of using it to clockwork. Faster, and they don't have to do anything. A P2P dude could get all the way to 5* without even having to leave Haven XD
You have a point about the not knowing and caring thing. Some people are less considerate than others. Well, a lot of people actually.
Sellers market is right. There will never be a time when buying outpaces selling. The buyers want it more. The sellers...they can afford to care less.
And there are actually a few of nice people out there. I once met this guy when I started out I was asking if anyone could give me some cr or ce, cuz I needed it for my gear. One guy approaches me and asks me how much I need. I tell him that I'll take anything he would spare. He gave me 60ce.
Really nice guy ^^
I'll have to agree with you on the possibility that more P2P than F2P actually don't care. They can spend money as/when they want, and get ce. Caring about the struggles of getting ce with cr is now below them, so they don't really bother. (Speaking generally again. Not everyone is like that.)
But they wouldn't be starting energy threads when the price takes a dip because it almost never drops below 5K, which was like the norm (my 'norm' anyway.) Cheaper prices are rare, but more expensive prices are more common. So they know there's no need to complain. And they want to prove to the F2P that they can wait for it to go back up, although it's a very different situation.
But yeah, energy threads won't get anyone anywhere. Al it does is give the rages on either side of the wall the opportunity to rage at each other. Then it grows, and grows, until it's less about the energy, and more just a personal attack thread on each others naivety or something...
*sigh*
P.S: Not an attack thread at anyone, no offence, generalising statements etcetcect <----- Do I have to keep saying this, or does everyone get it?
"Stop selling CE altogether. If they want crowns, they have to get their hands dirty doing the clockworks, and OOO can watch SK turns into pay-to-play."
You can't be serious. You're implying that OOO would CARE if this game went P2P? It'd be SO much better for them. It'd only be the F2Pers that'd have a problem.
If they wanted the game P2P, they would have made it P2P. Since they are not mind-readers, F2P are -prospective P2P players. F2P players may also indirect value by bringing friends who may turn P2P or making the community how it is (for better or worse). If they didn't care, they wouldn't bother with additions that requires large amount of crowns (Punch) or listed those rare accessories over the week-end.
Depending on the costs of running/maintaining/supporting the the game, it might just be better to have 20,000 F2P Players and 5000 P2P Players than it is to have 2500 P2P Players because the F2P players dragged their friends elsewhere .
I am not going to hype up the importance of F2P players. I'd rather have customers than prospective customers. But I sure as well would not alienate my prospective customers.
Ok. The only reason SK was made generally F2P was to increase it's player base. F2P are players, regardless whether they pay or not. What OOO is aware of though, is that any player who plays a game and likes it will do one or both of two things:
Having a bigger playerbase means that SK has more of a chance of gaining popularity, thus gaining P2P players that give it income. The F2P players are pretty much just a tool for this.
It doesn't matter if OOO would care if the F2P community would disappear. Quite frankly, I doubt they would, as there are still the P2P, it's just that progress would slow down a bit.
Pretty much, the whole concept of SK being F2P is just to lure players in, so that they tell their friends, more people come to play, and the more people come to play, the more P2P come as well.
But I don't care about all these inner business mechanics. It's a game, I play. You should all do the same, instead of bickering.
Really. If you're tired of the F2P players whining, then explain to them why things are how they are. And if they don't listen to you and insist that you're just being a snob, then just ignore them and get on with the game.
DON'T Just rage back at them and tell them that they're being greedy layabouts and should get a life and/or pay like normal people. The game was made F2P, let them play F2P. Besides, they won't take it lying down and will just rage back at you. They won't just go: 'Hm, maybe you're right, I'll just remove this stick up my hind end and P2P.' You can dream though.
And NEVER insist that P2P are superior to F2P. I don't care if they are. or if you think that P2P are more important. It's a game OOO made to be played, I suggest you just play it.
Sheesh. All I'm ever hearing in these energy threads are shots from the F2P complaining that the P2P are being selfish and greedy, and P2P complaining that F2P are all whiners and should go QQ in another room and that the game would be so much better without them.
JUST SHUT UP AND PLAY THE GAME! I've already outlined like THREE TIMES in this thread that BOTH F2P and P2P are going at each others neck for POINTLESS REASONS. Put DOWN the Katanas already!
Raging at each other over things like this is pointless. You throw the first stone, a stone will just be thrown back. And endless cycle of raging. No-one side will give in to the other, despite your desperate attempts to do so!
Now I have a headache...Just play the game...really, I'm so tired of having to explain the same things over and over while you people go 'Hmph. Well I still think...etcetcetc'
I am going to leave this comment here too as it relates to both the discussion and the topic:
CE market now it is at 6564 Crowns, with offers of 6400 at the moment.
I wonder how many people bid at that accesories "event", but CE prices are still increasing. I also wonder how many are the players who control the market and if that they wonder/care about the f2p playerbase. If this continues this way, at the end of the way we may have pre-Steam CE prices...
Also I will leave this article from Kotaku about WoW: http://kotaku.com/5858905/warcrafts-richest-1-control-24-of-azeroths-gol... > Question related: How much people dominate the CE market?
Fast edit: A 55 wall of 6300 exists right now.
Not making fun of you, but I just have to smile at the irony of your reaction. You tell people that they should chill (or rather "SHUT UP") and just play the game, yet the tone coming of your post, with all the caps, seem to suggest that you are getting agitated and exasperated that one one appears to heed what you are saying.
Could it be, that maybe, some of the P2P forum posters have tried to do exactly what you have suggested and failed to stop the complaints? You are telling them to ignore and play, yet here you are, shouting and telling people what they should do, what they must not do, and so on.
* I would say that telling people what they should, must, or mustn't do is not likely to do much, whether you think that you are right and even if you are right. At best, you'll get ignored an at worse you'll alienate people who may think "And who the hell does S/HE think s/he is telling ME what to do". If things do get too unfriendly, the real authorities will step in :)
"Normally the case would be that those who are foolish enough to buy CE at such prices would run out of crowns soon and the market will return to normal. But this time we have the effects of the glitch... the price has been kept up artificially for many days now."
That means enough people consider it a fair price to pay, and as such the price is fair. I've bought CE at the current price. I would have no problems paying 10,000 crowns for CE when I want it. The people who are buying & selling it are the ones keeping the game alive, everyone else is getting a free ride.
"I'm against artificially forcing CE price up, which is what's happening right now. Those walls of 100+ buy orders that appear in an instant. Those +200cr buy orders. Behaviors that disrupt the normal cycle."
Those are probably legitimate players with legitimate offers who want to transfer their funds fast, but not so fast they're desperate enough to pay the "click me" button rate. That's not how you control the market to profit off of a price change.
Patience. The market controls itself and will go both up and down in time. By the way, OOO is currently doing something. They're running auctions for some of the rarest of accessories (including that stinky aura with the cute flies!) in an attempt to get more people selling CE for crowns.
does anyone else besides Chris and myself like the term "whine-bad" ? ;)
...
judging by all the flames and trolls in this topic, I think I'll just leave it alone...
...
...
Okay. Maybe not. I can't resist joining a nice little flame war. Guess that makes me a troll.
me, personally, I don't really mind the price of CE currently. I use CE for crafting 3+* items, which happens rarely. So I just keep doin JK runs to run up for crowns, and wait until I need to craft.
I think the problem here is that many people use CE to go on runs. The crown output on most levels doesn't equal the price of 10 CE, so people rage.
Solution's simple. DOn't use CE on runs.
Of course, that means that every day, you'll make less crowns than if u use CE. But in the long run, you get the best out of it.
Yeah, I'm getting kinda exasperated. I mean, have you noticed how many times I've been saying the same things over and over in this thread?
I just finish a long post about what misunderstandings and ok-you-read-it-you-know-what's-in-it and them some dude will run along and say: 'Hmph, well, you're still a snob.' To which the other dude will inevitably reply a 'SAY WHAT!? WELL YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT I THINK OF YOU!?'
etcetcetc...
And you're probably right, am I'm just wasting my time here saying what I'm saying.
But if it's a problem of not knowing, those who read my post should now know, and hopefully, they, if anyone, should stop.
Plus, the weather was getting hot back here. I'm a cold weather person, so heat can make me agitated.
That wasn't a joke. I prefer cold weather. And too much heat makes me very irritable.
EDIT: I'll have to agree with necro about the short term solution. Just use mist to make your profit and use ce where you only absolutely HAVE to
I've seen those threads appear several times since the day I started playing (not as long as many, but I guess it has been a few months now). I even predicted not that a complaint threads was overdue about 3 weeks ago. Now some people are probably just obnoxious, especially online, but if you are getting exasperated from repeating the same thing in one thread, imagine how it must be like for those who see those threads for the 5th time.. or more.
As one's patience wears off, so does common courtesy. I am not saying it's right, and I am not saying that everyone will lose it, or be courteous in the first place. But if you represent the average poster, then I think you can probably understand how the other average poster might feel.
Bid how much you are willing to bid, and if you think it is no longer worth it, then vote with your time, and find another game to play. P2P players need to vote with their wallet if they -really- object to something in the game (and stop paying - even if it means stop playing). F2P players need to vote with their time.
So I say it's time to strike. We will no longer work for such cruel and greedy employers. We will all stop buying CE with crowns until the price drops back to around 6000.
The greedy CE price jerkers can either:
1. Let the price drop back to where it should be, and everyone will be happy again.
2. Stop selling CE altogether. If they want crowns, they have to get their hands dirty doing the clockworks, and OOO can watch SK turns into pay-to-play.
Why? Is it always the Ce buyers who spend real cash the greedy players? Why is it not the free players who want to play this game with absolutely putting no work into it? I mean you call paying players greedy, but aren't you the greedy one complaining until the price drops so YOU can play Spiral Knights?
I'm the average F2P player, just wondering why the CE prices, which used to be ~4-5k when I started playing, rose so much in the last few months without reason.
So what caused it?
Is anyone sure and can give me an answer?
Was it glitchers?
Was it price manipulation?
Was it a random influx of F2P players?
hmmmm?
Yup. No-one was listening to me.
Ah wth. I'll just leave this thread alone. I've said all I could, and if nobodies gonna listen, fine.
Tootaloo. And stop bumping the thread. I hear all the same points coming back again.
Most likely a *combination* of factors, but if we were to be objective about it, we can only make educated *guesses* on the causes. My views are:
- If it was solely the glitchers fault, then prices wouldn't risen up to even 6k from the 4-5k you saw when you started.
- Price manipulation alone can not rise prices. The only way prices rise is via people *other* than the manipulator(s) paying the rate above any walls. If it was just one or two buying that the higher price, then the next seller who needs large amount of crown would be able to clear it. But the fact is, there is enough demand for CE *even* at those higher prices. As long as people are buying CE more than others are selling, prices will climb.
If you consider the amount of energy required for *one* F2P player to craft one 5* set, we are really quite expensive. Even if everything is crafted on 100 ME, that's 1100 crafting energy per 5* equipment. So for a helm, armour, shield and two weapons, it would cost 5500 CE *minimum*. That mean that to reach that stage, someone else would need to pay $16.50 give or take (I am basing this on the 20,000CE pack, it would be more if people on average buy cheaper packs). Thankfully for us, there *are* people spending hundreds of dollars on this game. But you can bet that is not the norm. And I reckon (though this is merely a guess) that the number of F2P outnumbers P2P by over 2:1. Meaning that we are *all* fighting against each other for those resources. That incidentally includes the people who sold the CE in the first place (who may want the CE back after s/he has lost a bidding war in the AH).
@Psychodestroyer: This thread will sink when A. It is locked or B. Other posters have nothing left to say in it. Not because *you* have nothing left to say in it. The good news is, sufficient number of threads are displayed on one page that you can just ignore this one and click on others until this thread naturally sinks.
I meant that I'll just stop posting because I have nothing left to say that I haven't already, and hope that this'll just sink down into the forgotten.
I wasn't implying that if I stop, this thread will be abandoned. Nothing revolves around my involvement ><
Okies, but if that clears that up, then now is when I stop.
"Why? Is it always the Ce buyers who spend real cash the greedy players? Why is it not the free players who want to play this game with absolutely putting no work into it? I mean you call paying players greedy, but aren't you the greedy one complaining until the price drops so YOU can play Spiral Knights?"
Because as I said, OOO's setup here is a circle. The system requires both P2P and F2P to survive.
If P2P consider real money spent so precious, why sell CE at all? It's because it's part of OOO's system, to have a need for crowns. Unwilling to work the clockworks for crowns, P2P can opt for an easier way to get crowns - selling CE.
F2P fills that need. As said many times before, F2P works for P2P. Crown is service provided, CE is salary.
I'm not asking P2P to sell CE at dirt cheap price, but a more humane one. Leave a piece of bread for F2P to eat, not bread crumbs.
Purpose of this thread is to tell F2P you don't have to eat bread crumbs because that's all you can get. When there are attempts to jack up CE price artificially (wall of high buy orders, desperate buyers add new orders, wall disappears after a while and reappear when price drops back), you don't have to pay through the nose.
If you excessively complain about CE as a F2P player, then you are pathetic at managing your resources. I found a way to gain about 20k crowns on a JK run. (6k from run with mist, rest by other means.). I have played for 8 days so far, and i already know how to makemoney in game. Trust me, if i can do this, anyone can figure it out. Only prOblem i have is the elevator pass, but that is not for this thread.
F2P players, quit whining and play the game. Its not that hard to make money. As everyone says, keep costs low, and profuts high.
PS: If i type like some moron, blame the crappy keyboard.
There just needs to be a small way to get CE into the game other than P2P players buying it.
Perhaps reaching the core gives you 5~10 CE per entrance, and you can only get it once a day.
"If P2P consider real money spent so precious, why sell CE at all?"
That is not a credible argument I am afraid. If the real money spent is so precious to them, they would simply opt *not* to spend it to buy CE in the first place. The fact that they are spending on CE means that they are willing to spend money for the benefits it provides in this game. The perceived benefits must exceed the perceived cost (the other away applies too - at the moment you feel that the amount of "work" does not justify the amount of benefit - CE - you are getting). And just as we want more CE for our crowns, they want more crowns for their CE/dollars. I do not doubt that -some- P2P players do not sell their CE at the current rate just as there are F2P players (presumably yourself) holding for prices to go down.
You are technically right though, about the fact that attempts to "artificially jack up the price" would fail IF everyone stops buying CE with crowns (note that I said everyone - because P2P may sell their CE for bidding in the AH, only to lose the bidding war and needing CE again to either upgrade or buy something from another player). But realistically, you need to know that you have about as much chance to succeed with your plan, as a P2P player starting a thread calling for all P2P player to stop selling CE until buyers crave in and start buying at higher prices. It's simple though, if a P2P player needs the crowns NOW (e.g. to buy something from an auction ending in the next hour) s/he will not wait until prices are high to sell. Similarly, someone with 30,000 crowns looking to upgrade an item to 4* is unlikely willing to wait for a whole week in the hope that prices will have dropped.
If you think about it, the difference between 6k and 6.5k is 500 crowns per 100. That means an extra 3500-4000 crowns to upgrade one item to 5* (depending on whether you craft with some ME or not). A lot? Sure. Do I like it? No. But it is still less than 100ME worth of run.
One last point: the day playing this game feels like "working for greedy employers", is the day I find something else to do with my time. I can't buy bread with crowns or CEs.
I made 25k in 2 days, from getting invited to RJ and Vana runs, only dipping a tiny bit into crystal. You can do it, I can do it, but that doesn't mean most of the player base can do it.
There's an average income average players can make in one day. I'm saying there are players obsessively working the market, leaving nothing but bread crumbs for F2P. I'm not asking P2P to give F2P a 3-inch think ham sandwich, but at least give them a piece of bread. Because if it takes way too long to get CE, F2P will be frustrated and eventually leave. Then SK will turn into P2P, and any crowns P2P needs will have to be from clockworks themselves. The whole system breaks down.
We play for free. That's enough for me. You pay? You get more CE than everyone else. Tada. That's basically it. It's a player-run economy majorly, so it goes to what players lean. More crowns evident in the game means higher CE price, and more CE in game means less CE price. I play for free, and don't intend on wasting a dime yet, but money given is what player gets. No money put in means harder game. You're done. No need to boycott until prices have gone to 20k.
[Evilnut: Free players are essentially working for paying players: They invest time and get crowns for paying players that want lots of crowns and don't want to farm. But right now, this is a job that leaves you with no money left. You spend it all doing the job.]
Well the P2P player PAID so you F2P could enjoy the game. Without them OOO will close the game because they'll go bankrupt and there'll be nothing for you to protest about.
Well, DO strike if you like. You dont get what you dont deserve.
Just think of it this way: We are players not customers!