Spiral Knights - impartial spikes

impartial spikes

19 replies [Last post]

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 21:46

Barcs

Legacy Username

Most of the things i'd say, like an auction house, have been covered to death here ... the one thing I would love to see, however, is that things that damage us, also damage monsters.

You know when that cheeky little mob just hides out in a mess of spikes or runs that way knowing you'll try to get in one little hit before he gets there then having to whittle him down with your gun (that he just so happens to be resistant to) while he heals the 20 other dudes chasing you in a cirlce... well no more I say!!!! ... you run face first into a load of spikes, let them impale you as a sign to all the others of your foolish ways...

like i get this could make path scripting for the baddies a nightmare so it might never happen ... and maybe it wouldnt apply to flying mobs or something ... but i personally feel a little cheated when they sit with a bunch of spikes running through them with a smug look of self satisfaction...

peace,
B

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 22:11

Negimasonic

I don't like it either, I

I don't like it either, I wish they'd get hurt as well. The only reason I see that they don't is that we don't hurt each other with our own bombs (our form of traps). Which isn't much of a concession, but one nevertheless.

Thu, 04/14/2011 - 00:21

Shoebox

The gremlins have all taken

The gremlins have all taken up meditation.

They sleep on beds of nails, so standing on them isn't a big deal.

Sat, 04/16/2011 - 05:26

Barcs

Legacy Username

Hmmm ... but *their* bombs

Hmmm ... but *their* bombs and stuff don't hurt each other ... so us not hurting each other is fair enough. I don't feel like spikes and brambles are technically on the baddies side (though I guess it works out like that now)...

Ahahahaha shoebox ... nice one ... though I seriously question the meditation potential of wolves and jelly :P

Sat, 04/16/2011 - 08:45

cheeserito

Legacy Username

I agree with the spikes being

I agree with the spikes being kind of ridiculous. I mean, yeh, it's all about timing, but sometimes they really will just sit there (usually because they have some sort of ranged attacks that do elemental damage AND can chain freeze you in place...retrode series I'm looking at you). But I kind of think the thorns are even worse than spikes; at least the spikes retract from time to time.

What I really don't like is that they can be killed while in the middle of the thorns, and everything they drop (including things like, you know, hearts) lands in the middle of the thorns. That we dare not tread on. Even if your shield has good piercing defense, you still get "hit" by the thorns so rapidly that trying to make it to the middle and back is almost guaranteed to break your shield and hit you a couple times. It's almost easier to just run in there, Leroy Jenkins style, and just get hit a couple times to start with. But at the same time, you're looking at lowering your health by 4-6 bars, and if you're trying to get a heart out of it, it really becomes not worth it.

Like, I understand that getting them stuck on the thorns and then gunning them to death is our fault or whatever, but I have the Calibur series, whose charge does a substantial amount of knockback (sometimes I knock them back all the way across the screen) and damage. So I end up accidentally knocking them back into thorns, and killing them simultaneously.

A possible solution would be to make it so that enemies avoid thorn patches or something. Like, make it terrain that can't be walked on by enemies. But I'm not sure if it's programmatically possible to make it an enemy-exclusive thing. Another solution (possibly more viable?) would be to make it so our shields don't take so much damage (even if they reduced it by 50% your shield will still probably break at the end) from the thorns, allowing us to "easily" sweep through them for our loots.

Sorry about kind of getting off topic there, but I think the thorns are right up there with the spikes, lol.

Sat, 04/16/2011 - 09:07

ubertuba

Legacy Username

Put it this way.

Right now, spikes are not interactive.

At best, you simply stay the hell away, and, if possible, lure your foe into somewhere safer for you.
At worst they restrict movement and reduce the skill ceiling in the game:

Spiders of the genus Portia are hunting spiders, and are considered "intelligent". In the wild, they often hunt other spiders twice their size. But, in the lab, when placed in a jar with their prey species, the larger "prey" invariably eats poor Portia. The reason is, in a jar, there is no environmental interaction going on. Portia cannot use its superior intelligence and skill to its advantage in a bland jar. It can't retreat and suprise its foe, it can't wait for the right moment to strike. It just loses, and gets eaten.

The metaphor here is the player is Portia, and arenas with spikes are the jar. By restricting player movement, by reducing environmental interaction you reduce the skill in, and therefore the fun of, the game.

Sat, 04/16/2011 - 13:06

gamegeared

Legacy Username

Im sure part of the problem

Im sure part of the problem is that A it would lead to degenerate tactics of luring/hitting enemies onto the spikes for easy kills, and B if they did that they would have to put more work (a lot more) into the AI to allow for zones that they want to avoid at all costs, C It would require radical changes to certain maps and most of the arenas to make it so that the ai doesn't suicide often.

its more trouble than its worth to make the spikes hurt them.

Sat, 04/16/2011 - 23:17

Gnavin

Legacy Username

An alternate idea: What if,

An alternate idea: What if, once all of the foes in a room (especially arena rooms) were defeated, the spikes permanently retracted and spiked bushes decayed/vanished?
This would mean that you'd be able to get in there and collect any items available without fear of being harmed.

Cons: People could kite enemies from later areas into places where spikes have been disabled. Potential solution: It makes sense that the spikes at least could reactivate if an enemy came into the room, but it might be harder to explain thorn bushes suddenly regrowing again.

Sun, 04/17/2011 - 05:41

Rentago

Legacy Username

I'll wear your pelt when I'm through.

It would allow players to make use of the environment if enemies could be hurt too.

I hate when a gremlin runs into a nest of poison brambles and shoves his face full of healing items.

To solve the issue you guys are discussing of cheap tactics in which players will just lead enemies into spikes and let them get killed, they can just take reduced damage.

At any rate it is to force enemies off of those traps or hinder them if they plan on parking on them.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 21:42

Oswalde

Legacy Username

Agree'd

I totally agree with what's been said. I was actually going to start a separate post about this issue, but this one says exactly what I wanted to say.

I agree for the most part that it would probably be hard to make the really common hazards do damage to enemies, since they're EVERYWHERE and the enemies basically treat them like roads. But maybe allowing some of the rarer and less easily exploited hazards, like the fire pits you come across from time to time, would be more reasonable. I was actually just playing and happened to lure a couple kats onto a one-square fire pit right as it went off, and was really excited about it even though I knew it wasn't going to hurt them. I feel like there should be some reward for clever tactics like that.

Another thought is that environmental hazards could only hurt enemies that are "weak" to the type of the hazard that hits them. For example, it would make sense if an ice cube jelly would get obliterated by standing on top of a fire pit. Or on the flip side, maybe it would make more sense to have enemies be immune to the hazards on their type of levels. For example, spikes wouldn't do damage to construct types and brambles wouldn't do damage to beast types since the levels that have those hazards are predominantly construct/beast anyway. At least that way there would be some enemies that you could lure onto traps, although the majority of them would still be immune.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 23:58

#10

G3N0Unknown

Legacy Username

I personally hate it when

I personally hate it when they run into said corner of spikes and just sit there and don't move. The only up side to that is I can slowly knock their HP done with my gun. Though to make it so it hurts enemies would involve changing levels most likely. Though as someone said, they could take significantly reduced damage compared to players.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 03:22

#11

KalmaAmlak

Legacy Username

Graviton

Sure, make my Graviton Bomb even more ridiculous.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:00

#12

RamuneDrink

Legacy Username

Bumping this. Spikes and

Bumping this. Spikes and enemies/drops are so cheap. Either:
- Get rid of the knockback
- Re-path enemies and stuff...
- Don't re-path enemies and make them SUFFER.
- Make spikes disappear...
- All items come to the player...

Don't know about the ones with ellipses...they seem kinda weird.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:03

#13

OnmyojiOmn

Legacy Username

Enemies should tend to avoid

Enemies should tend to avoid standing in areas like spikes and brambles for more than a few seconds. Given a choice, they should tend to move out of them. That's all that's really needed. Let them move through them to reach targets.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:59

#14

Jalok

There should be more traps

There should be more traps than spikes all the time. I think I mentioned in one of my threads there should be a variety of traps.

But back on topic:
Btw, those enemy NPCs piss me off too when they go into the spikes and not get hurt. At least make it so that some mobs gets hurt from the spikes (Like gremlins and wolfs) and program the NPCs to stay away from the spikes rather than jumping in it. While other mobs (like undead, and shadow kittys) doesn't get hurt from spikes.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 08:54

#15

Will-Helm

BUMP

I've played the game for a grand total of 17 hours, I've barely got 3-star stuff and this is already bothering me consistently. I can't imagine how "older" players feel.
1. Make enemies take damage in spikes/brambles
2. Make them avoid spikes/brambles (definitely possible: some baddies run away from sword slashes)
3. Increase the "pickup radius" of loot that drops in spikes/brambles: i.e. baddie dies in spikes/brambles, I walk right up to the edge of the trap, the pickups zip over to me

Three Rings has changed things people have asked for on the forums before (e.g. "Go Solo"); they can do this.

Support this thread!

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 09:31

#16

Juances

THERE WAS A NEW THREAD FOR

THERE WAS A NEW THREAD FOR THIS, NO NEED TO BUMP AN OLD ONE.

The only way this could work is if traps knockback monster so they don't stay there, but they are too dumb to avoid them so they'd die quite easily.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 09:38

#17

Madadder

Juances

it is always better to bump an old thread than it is to create a new one

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 10:35

#18

Happyapathy

unfortunately unless the AI

unfortunately unless the AI is made a whole lot smarter this idea has "exploit" written all over it

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 18:36

#19

Master-Of

long thread is long. i just

long thread is long.

i just wanna mention that their weapons/attacks can hurt each other:
The attacks of Trojans kill monsters.
The white lichen thingies kill monsters and set off exploding boxes, when they are in their shock state.
The Lumbers damage and stun monsters when they accidentally hit them.
The rockets from Rocket Puppies damage monsters and even themselves, when they explode.
The Ironclaw Munitions rockets can damage monsters (those fired also by Roarmulus).
Those big wheels in Firesorm Citadel seem to affect monsters.
Those exploding Jellies seem to affect nearby monsters, just like exploding boxes.

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impartial spikes