Forums › English Language Forums › General › Suggestions

Search

Specialization/Classes

10 replies [Last post]
Thu, 04/14/2011 - 10:54
Shinko
Legacy Username

Initial Reservation:

Don't take the title the wrong way. I'm not looking for hard coded classes which make you choose one path (as of right now it'd be swordsman, gunslinger, and bomber) but rather a system where you won't be able to just change your character type to anything at all assuming that you obtain the equips for it.

Current "Problem":

People now can switch "class" simply by changing their equips. If a well equipped player decides to change from swordsman into bomber he or she can simply gather materials and start forging bomber clothes and weapons and suddenly he's a bomber. People can also factor their character to become a jack-of-all-trades type of knight where they use guns, bombs, and swords with generally the same level of proficiency. This is good and bad. Good because players are free to choose what they want to do and free to change their mind or pick a new path. Bad because the "classes" are not well defined and there is no clear advantages and disadvantages a person must decide on since they are able to switch to a different path at will.

Why would we want to address this "problem"?:

Weakly defined classes suffer from feeling week and mundane. If every person has the ability to be every type of specialist then there's really no reason to care about what you decide to do. Since each class is defined basically by the weapon the person uses and what kind of armor they have on, classes don't really get any unique powers or abilities. Each person feels like they can be anything and everything at the same time (they can't but they can change roles easily) and that's why it feels like a solo "Zelda" adventure where one adventurer covers every need.

A proposed solution to the "problem":

Don't make clearly defined, constrictive classes. This will make the game into another MapleStory/WoW. Instead give people incentive to specialize and stay specialized in one area or another. Make armor and weapon sets that give bonuses to specific weapons (e.g. the bomber outfit, when completed, will give additional bonuses on top of what the equips do naturally). Make people with a set unable to carry weapons that are not their specialty if it's above 3 stars (sorta like can't handle explosives b/c they're not an expert ^^). Make more specialized weapon/armor sets which give people within a specialty options. This way people will still have the ability to change specialty, but they'll be more inclined to keep with one or two instead of going jack-of-all-trades style. We'd see less people running around with a sword/gun combo and more people using 2 different swords and 2 different guns. People would therefore be more reliant on their party members while exploring clockworks, thus increasing the social atmosphere of the game. Maybe even include portals in clockworks which only allow parties with a certain number of gun/bomb/sword specialists to pass through. Players would become more diversified and less unified under a single "class" and I believe the game would have a better feel overall.

Thu, 04/14/2011 - 11:24
#1
TyeZenneth
Legacy Username
That's kind of unneeded.

Unless you're playing the game willy nilly (read: idiotic) or trying to go solo, it's best to specialize in a weapon type.
Of course, it's easier to set up well-rounded groups with a clan than with public groups, but that's the nature of any game.

Thu, 04/14/2011 - 11:43
#2
Metaknight's picture
Metaknight
the game is fine without

the game is fine without these restrictions. there are people out there doing sword/sword, gun/gun, bomb/bomb. if you think the general population is too boring, make friends with some of these people and adventure with them. its pretty silly to impose restrictions. if you want to add additional bonuses for having a complete set, thats fine.

also consider we are early in (public) release, so most people are probably going for balance. people who played as part of the preview event have more of an understanding of what combos work / what weapons are needed/useful in what situations, so they are probably specializing more than newer players.

Thu, 04/14/2011 - 14:37
#3
Merethif's picture
Merethif
Problem?! Don't think so

"People now can switch "class" simply by changing their equips" is not a problem - it's a main feature of Spiral Knight - something that makes it unique. It's all about equipment here - your character is blank canvas - you can create it anew every day.

I remember playing Mario Bros with my sister in good ol' days - she played Mario and I played Luigi but apart from colour palette there were no difference between the two characters... unless she picked up Fire Flower and I picked up Super Mushroom.

What you pick is what you are!

Beside I'd rather not to be forced to choose speciality before I have a chance to actually play game and check every possible option in action.

Thu, 04/14/2011 - 18:42
#4
MoonLite
Legacy Username
Yes!

I actually like this idea! I mean, what's the point of the extra character slots? Of course, to try different classes!

With this kind of implementation, people will actually DEPEND on each other for support instead of going solo.

I'm looking forward to some healing or magician type weapon or class.

Thu, 04/14/2011 - 19:04
#5
Negimasonic's picture
Negimasonic
No. You said this feels like

No.

You said this feels like Zelda...guess what...it was inspired by that. So you're meant to change how you play on the fly just like in Zelda when you can go to your inventory and bring out a bow or a bomb whenever you want.

Thu, 04/14/2011 - 20:05
#6
Shinko
Legacy Username
Socialization with Specialization

I would like to at least see the game developers encouraging players to specialize in something verses going all out with a fully implemented class system (which is breaking the game as mere said). Those ways I suggested were ways in which the devs could encourage people to choose a specialty and more clearly define what the advantages and disadvantages of specialty are. There currently isn't too much meaning to specialization. It's too easy to pick one, switch to another, be indecisive and make a combo character, or whatever. As MoonLite said, I don't see much use in having multiple character slots. Since each character is entirely determined by their equips it is just a matter of getting new recipes when I get tired of using one type of weapon. Why would I make an entirely new character which will leech off my account's communal pool of energy when I can just keep my one character with 4 different sets of equipment targeted at the 3 different weapon specialties and one all-around set?

By encouraging specialization the devs would be indirectly encouraging people to party up and play with other people. I see the lack of bonuses given by a full set of equipment from a set and the lack of sets targeted at certain specialties as the biggest place where the devs can push but not restrict players. Imposing 3 star limit rules and locking players into their items once they're chosen are more extreme solutions. By simply defining specialization more definitively the depth of characterization in the game will go up. By giving people a semi-easy path to change specialty the game will differentiate itself. By moving away from the jack-of-all-trades or morphing character model the game will feel more diverse and players with a specialty will be much more powerful in that specialty.

Partying right now yields some benefits, but I can see it becoming so much more if people were dependent on certain specialists being in the party to advance to certain special (but not on the normal path) areas. True, under the current system one person could own multiple specialties including a general specialty, but if new bosses/alternate paths/different drops/more challenge could be reached by having say 1 bomb and 1 gun specialist in the party then I'm sure we would see at least a slight rise in the number of adventuring groups. The game right now feels sorta individualistic with partying just as a side option that really doesn't open up anything new (just makes the current game a bit different). Partying and working together in MMOs should be encouraged! MMOs create the unique environment where hundreds of millions of people can play together, so why should we be wasting it by leaving the party path with so little incentive? And hand-in-hand with this party idea is the need for some specialization. Without it people are less dependent on others and the only way to encourage partying would then be to grant arbitrary bonuses for being in one. I much prefer the former over the latter or even the solo player option.

summary statement: I like the idea of bonuses granted for complete equipment sets and specialist gates the best for encouraging specialization and socialization within the game.

Thu, 04/14/2011 - 21:35
#7
IronianPage
Legacy Username
I agree with most of that. As

I agree with most of that. As long as it isn't made rigid, the encouragement would probably add something. However, I think limiting it to three stars is too much. I'd say four stars, so that you can only get the really advanced stuff by specializing (like who in their right mind would carry Nitronome with jelly mail? We're professionals according to canon after all), but you can still solo tier 3 with some amount of proficiency. Otherwise I like where this is going. Though it's a completely different genre, Team Fortress 2 has bonuses that go with a full set of equipment, and that works out quite swimmingly. I assume that if it'll work in an FPS it would be about as difficult to implement into an MMO as it is to punch through a sheet of paper with spikey brass knuckles :P

Fri, 04/15/2011 - 06:34
#8
Syor
Legacy Username
Well

Well, to be honest if you're saying that socialization through specialization, I don't think it'll work.

First off, this game is based on the inspiration of zelda or similar games. Which, as said by merethif, is the main feature of Spiral Knight a.k.a the flexibility to switch between any weapon of sort as and when you like, which is actually a solution to all the fixed specialization of classes in many various games.

Take runescape for example, it provided the choice of flexibility to switch between weapon, melee, magic and range. Just that this isn't the main point of runescape but it's idea as a whole, flexibility in all areas, was an idea that still attracts many to return.

Spiral Knight do already offers bonuses for specializing through the type of armor, if you did not notice.
For Swordsman - Wolver series - Increased Sword Damage
For Gunman - Gunslinger series - Increased Handgun Attack Speed
For Bomber - Demo series - Increase Bomb Charge Time

|||||||and you don't need an idiot to understand that wearing these armor will increase whatever is being said||||||||

It may not be a fixed specialization but it proves as a path for specialization and well hey, who wouldn't get bored playing a type of specialization after x hours, so the flexibility further allow player to change specialization and still enjoy the game.

If you're talking about partying, it definitely gives a whole new environment, it also gives extra heat and crowns per run, in case you didn't know. Moreover, if players are less dependent on other players, it would actually make team gameplay more fun and faster as everyone is thinking of how to survive and kill the boss/mob than rely on other players to kill it instead. Everyone in the team must be able to think of a way to solo the dungeon if not when the other 3 are dead, that individual will be as good as dead.

In addition, I do feel that Spiral knight can definitely expand itself into the field of having a magician (but as of now, it might just be overpowering when compared to Gunman, if you really think of how a magician would attack). A cleric would then be as well too overpowering, if lets say you have an armor that will rejuvenate your health or a weapon that can heal others then it would defeat the purpose of a 'zelda like' game as you wouldn't want to have a well planned group of 3 healer healing a single strong player attacking the boss or monster.

||||||||If you really have a suggestion, do think a bit about the concept of how the game is being developed, if it wasn't for the concept, we wouldn't have a flexible choice of switching between classes.||||||||

and well, rather than restricting yourself as to how other games are like, why not enjoy how you used to keep get stronger sword & bomb while playing zelda. Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh but yea peaceout XD

Fri, 04/15/2011 - 08:13
#9
Negimasonic's picture
Negimasonic
*applause for Syor*

*applause for Syor*

Fri, 04/15/2011 - 15:36
#10
Shinko
Legacy Username
@ Syor

Specialization increasing socialization is debatable I agree with that. It sounds like it would work in theory but we wouldn't know unless we actually tried it (not that I'm saying we should do it just for that reason).

Next... true, with the 3 sets you mentioned you just stack all the targeted bonuses from all the equips and you get a specialized effect, but:

1) there's like 1 specialized set for each weapon (yes there's branches, but that still restricts options, for example every piece of the gunslinger set's got basically only piercing defense).

2) The bonus you get is just a stacked bonus. You earned nothing for completing it but what you get for wearing the clothes. That's not really great incentive if you ask me :P. I've seen a thread asking for handgun attack increases b/c attack speed's not noticeable. Implementing that stat as a bonus for completing a gunslinger set would solve the problem quite elegantly.

Next... I agree that having completely fixed specialization would be foundation breaking for this game. However, Zelda was, is, and probably will be principally a single player game. MMOs are multiplayer by definition. You're supposed to interact with other people. Of course to cover the widest possible audience there should be a way for people to remain solo if they choose to do so, but it would be a breach of the MMO game concept to limit players to solo play. Partying here offers some bonuses in the way of money and heat, but that's still very little incentive. Most people that I know, I've noticed, prefer to work independently rather than together. They believe in individual competition and achievement over cooperation (note that this is not a bad thing). However, in Spiral Knights there is no avenue to compete against eachother. Since we don't have PVP then shouldn't we be supporting the other side (partying) that much more? Why is it that all you can do as a party is go through the same levels that you could be going through alone with just some extra heat and money as incentive?

I'm getting off topic but I'll go a bit further. You said that you think partying is more enriching when each person is individually responsible for surviving and doing their own damage separately from the group. Basically "individually cooperating". That's just about the same thing as saying a sports team would be top notch if every player just focused on doing his/her job correctly. That's like 4 people who happen to be soloing in the same dungeon. It's more akin to an assembly line than really "working together". A party shouldn't be like that; a party shouldn't be just about running down to clockworks to bring back loot. That's sterile, that's boring, that's grinding. I'm going really off topic now so I'll go back.

You talk about more classes next. I'm not arguing for more classes. I kinda don't want more classes actually o.O'''. At least not yet, as you said. I like the current swordsman/gunman/bomber choices. The class selections right now are pretty stable the way they are.

As a side point which I just thought of, more well defined specializations have their perks. When power is concentrated on to one thing then it's much more effective. If specializations were more well defined the end result would be more powerful specialized players. However, with specialization the power you have is lost in some areas as you concentrate it on one thing. This adds some depth and complexity to the game. It requires players to seriously think about and weigh different options and go with the one which suits them best (in the perfect world every specialization is equal among their advantages and disadvantages).

Games don't have to stick together with their original concepts like protons do in atoms. I'm not calling for a complete split from the original concept that this game is founded on. I'm calling for a bit less Zelda and a bit more MMO in this Zelda MMO. In Zelda you're the only, lone hero who has to master every type of weapon to save whatever you're trying to save. However, in an MMO you have hundreds of thousands of other probable heros to help you out. Why would you then need to master everything? I support class changes and mixing (although maybe not as easily as it's done now), but I also think that MMOs provide unique social environments offering players the chance to have fun with eachother and I don't think this game is living up to its full potential on the MMO side of things.

Powered by Drupal, an open source content management system