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Thats it! Argent Peacemaker needs fixed. **Video and Some Focused Test Results**

23 replies [Last post]
Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:31
Zinqf's picture
Zinqf

No one has really looked at it, and I normally just used it as an anti-undead weapon. Although this weapon is flawed and needs fixed!

Weapon Deals Piercing and Elemental Damage.

Here's the monster chart

Jellies and Slimes --> Weak to Shadow; Strong against Piercing
Constructs --> Weak to Elemental; Strong against Piercing
Fiends --> Weak to Piercing; Strong against Shadow
Undead --> Weak to Elemental; Strong against Shadow
Gremlins --> Weak to Shadow; Strong against Elemental
Beasts --> Weak to Piercing; Strong against Elemental

Here's the damage chart on Argent Peacemaker RIGHT NOW.

Jellies and Slimes --> Deals REDUCED damage.
Constructs --> Deals REDUCED damage.
Gremlins --> Deals REDUCED damage.
Beasts --> Deals REDUCED damage.
Fiends --> Deals NORMAL damage.
Undead --> Deals BONUS damage.

GG? Lets look these over so they have the same weaknesses, strengths and normals that all other non-normal damage dealing weapons have.

The correct ones...
Jellies and Slimes are weak to shadow and strong against piercing. This means Argent Peacemaker should do reduced damage here.
Undead are weak to elemental and strong against shadow. This means Argent Peacemaker should do bonus damage here.
Gremlins are weak to shadow and strong against elemental. This means Argent Peacemaker should do reduced damage here.

The Wrong Ones
Constructs are weak to elemental but strong against piercing. These should cancel each other out resulting in NORMAL damage.
Beasts are weak to piercing but strong against elemental. These should cancel each other out resulting in NORMAL damage.
Fiends are weak to piercing but strong against shadow. This should be resulting in BONUS damage.

Here's what the damage chart SHOULD be

Jellies and Slimes --> Deals reduced damage
Constructs --> Deals normal damage
Fiends --> Deals bonus damage
Undead --> Deals bonus damage
Gremlins --> Deals reduced damage
Beasts --> Deals normal damage

2 normals, 2 strengths, 2 weaknesses....and it makes 100% sense unlike the situation we have here.

**Edited Post to hopefully clarify things people aren't reading anyway.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:47
#1
Playerman's picture
Playerman
Err...

What do you mean? Your "chart" here shows exactly what happens in the game, nothing needs fixing...

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:56
#2
Algol-Sixty's picture
Algol-Sixty
Uh, no, you are looking at

Uh, no, you are looking at this wrong and your labels are off.

The AP already has 2 monster families that it does better against (fiend and undead), 2 that it does worse against (slime and gremlin) and 2 that it does intermediate against (beast and construct). The "intermediate" damage can be considered "normal" for all practical purposes, you just have to adjust the base damage up or down to what you think normal should be. If a normal gun does 100 damage against beasts/constructs and an AP does 105 against them, then the AP is better than the other gun, if it does 95, it is worse than the normal gun.

To repeat what I said in this thread

To put some numbers to this...

My understanding is that when a weapon is strong against a monster, it does 150% of the neutral damage amount, and when it is weak against a monster, it does only 25% of the damage.

When you have two non-normal damage types on a weapon, you get the following:

strong and neutral: 0.5*1.5+0.5*1 = 1.25 -> 125%
strong and weak: 0.5*1.5+0.5*0.25 = 0.875 -> 87.5%
neutral and weak: 0.5*1+0.5*0.25 = 0.675 -> 62.5%

the best case is 43% better than the middle case, while the middle case is 40% better than the worst. It doesn't make any difference if the middle case is "87.5%", or "100%" or "1%", it is the ratios that matter. The AP (and other weapons that do two kinds of non-normal damage) are much more evenly balanced between their best case and their worst case.

If a weapon does both normal damage and a non-normal damage type, the result is between a weapon that does pure normal, and one that does two non-normal damage types.

strong and normal: 0.5*1.5+0.5*1 = 1.25 -> 125%
neutral and normal: 0.5*1+0.5*1 = 1 -> 100%
weak and normal: 0.5*0.25+0.5*1 = -> 62.5%

The best case is 25% better than the middle case, while the middle case is 60% better than the worst case. Again, it doesn't matter if the middle case is "100%", or "87.5%" or "1%", it is the ratios that matter.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:57
#3
Chris's picture
Chris
Yes it needs "to be

Yes it needs "to be fixed"

OOO clearly has some problems understanding their own game lol.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:28
#4
Heavy-Duty's picture
Heavy-Duty
...

"Fixed?" I think weapon choice should be fixed. If we're trying to move around the "supereffectivenesses" of this game, then we're moving a lot more stuff around. If you don't like how the AP or any other weapon deals that damage, choose another weapon, please. No need to move around the nuts and bolts of the game. Maybe move this to Suggestions thread? And maybe say what NEEDS to be moved, like if it needs to be buffed or something? Because all I read was the exact things that need to happen in game. And Chris, I think OOO understands this game, but players do not, therefore are complaining against what has been working since the game started. "[players] clearly have some problems understanding their own game lol." [PS sorry Chris but this is the threads. You're another player posting in them if you think this is offensive]

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 00:06
#5
Dirt's picture
Dirt
I don't see a single number

I don't see a single number in any of this post, so I'm going to disregard it until I see some actual testing done. Going off of the style of the numbers alone is silly. With my Very High Vs. Constructs Divine Avenger my first swing does "bonus" damage (bigger, yellow numbers) and the second swing does "normal" damage (white, standard numbers). On undead both swings are "bonus."

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 00:43
#6
Dirty-Harry's picture
Dirty-Harry
Enemies in this game resist

Enemies in this game resist damage way more than they are weak against. This means that using the AP against constructs and beasts will not give neutral damage, since the bonus damage they get will be less than how much less damage is from the resistances, it's just how the game works. They should keep it this way.
And you can't base what the gun is good against by what color numbers show up when hitting enemies, it's isn't very reliable. The gun does do better damage against fiends than what you may think from what you see.
You also have to realize that the AP and other Antigua lines are not going to be the most damaging guns since they aren't pure-typed. The gun has the biggest clip size (counting the autoguns as a 2 shot clip), fast firing rate, quick bullets, and has longer range than most of the other guns in the game. On top of that you are fully mobile while firing unless you're reloading.
If you're complaining about the gun and how it needs to be fixed because of damage, you should probably take a look at the good side of the gun first before asking them to fix it. If you really want them to buff the AP, they need to buff all of the other guns as well.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 00:50
#7
Knightrails's picture
Knightrails
Why isn't this in Arsenal

Why isn't this in Arsenal anyway?

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 02:11
#8
Zinqf's picture
Zinqf
@ Algol-Sixty

Algol-Sixty said "The AP already has 2 monster families that it does better against (fiend and undead), 2 that it does worse against (slime and gremlin) and 2 that it does intermediate against (beast and construct). The "intermediate" damage can be considered "normal" for all practical purposes, you just have to adjust the base damage up or down to what you think normal should be. If a normal gun does 100 damage against beasts/constructs and an AP does 105 against them, then the AP is better than the other gun, if it does 95, it is worse than the normal gun."
The entire problem is that this DOES NOT HAPPEN. Everyone is blind.

AP SHOULD do better against fiend, but its' neutral.
AP SHOULD do neutral vs beasts and constructs but it does WORSE.

What you are saying is what it SHOULD be, if you actually took TEN SECONDS to read my post. If you read it, you'd understand that I said the exact same thing you did, except thats my preposed change...NOT how it actually is in teh game.

AP DOES NOT DO BETTER AGAINST FIEND BUT IT SHOULD.
AP SHOULD NOT DEAL REDUCED DAMAGE AGAINST BEASTS AND CONSTRUCTS, IT SHOULD DEAL NORMAL DAMAGE.

This is frustrating when people don't actually see whats in front of them and fail to read whats in front of them and fail to even realize there are words that actually read differently than what they think they are when they aren't reading them.

Sorry, Blantant idiocy is making me rage. Especially when its' several people lined together NOT reading the thread at all.

Maybe I should make a video so you can SEE why its' broken because you are apparently not reading the actual facts. =(

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 02:19
#9
Zinqf's picture
Zinqf
TLDR

What we all think it SHOULD be...isn't what it actually is. That's why there's a problem. Making a short damage test video to show exactly where these BUGS that SHOULD BE FIXED are...it'll be up soon.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 02:20
#10
Avihr's picture
Avihr
the problem here is that

the problem here is that monster's weaknesses are not so pronunciated as resistances are... thats why i always said its the worst gun in spiral knights
(but very useful in FSC)

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 02:38
#11
Zinqf's picture
Zinqf
@ Rodrigoch

You could try to theorycraft a justification but you are dead wrong.

For example...WHY does the gun do NORMAL DAMAGE AGAINST FIENDS?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

HUH? Nothing about monster weaknesses or resistances being pronunciated here.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 02:45
#12
Shidara's picture
Shidara
Fix?

The only real fix it needs is its buggy hitbox. If you're spamming your Antigua-line gun you'll sometimes find that if you don't hit it right on (and in some cases, even when you do) it doesn't hit at all. It's like it's stopping close to the enemy, but not close enough for the tiny splash to actually hit and harm the enemy. It's very annoying to fire a full clip of six bullets, only to have three to four of them actually hitting. I have this happen a lot when hitting enemies a bit to the side, but not far enough to actually miss the mob entirely, yet, the hit doesn't count.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 02:48
#13
Zinqf's picture
Zinqf
@ Shidara

I don't care about the hitbox, it actually does that with all guns. Especially in pvp. But that's NOT what this thread is about.

This gun gets a damage penalty on 4 of the 6 families of monsters.
This gun gets a damage bonus on ONE, and most monsters IN that family recieve damage neutralities instead of bonuses.
This gun has a damage neutrality on ONE.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 03:05
#14
Avihr's picture
Avihr
and you could try being nicer

and you could try being nicer to someone who's trying to help.

i dont actually have numbers or any proof of this, but try getting into a fiend arena with a flourish (that's where you can find fiend and construct together) and you'll see what im talking about.

and BTW my silversix always deals bonus dmg against fiend.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 03:40
#15
Zinqf's picture
Zinqf
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Damage

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Damage
Just so forum readers are aware.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 03:20
#16
Corny
Slow down there big boy.. AP

Slow down there big boy.. AP does the exact same numerical damage to fiends and undead, not sure where you got the idea that it doesn't. If you're talking about the colors, they're glitchy: the damage numbers are correct. As for the other classes, damage penalties (25%) far outweigh bonuses (150%), so the AP is still going to be doing less than neutral damage to beasts and constructs and even less to slimes and gremlins.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 03:22
#17
Zinqf's picture
Zinqf
@ Rodrigoch

I think you are one of the first posters to finally post something helpful. It IS true that silversix also has the same damage types and seems to have proper damage resistance/bonus charts. This is another strong reason why THIS weapon must be addressed.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 03:26
#18
Zinqf's picture
Zinqf
@ Corny

I used to think so too until I did focused testing and realized the base damage penalities were THE SAME.

For example, DA would not have bonus numbers come up alot but the damage was spot on. Same with almost every weapon in this game.

Not the Argent Peacemaker. Damage to beasts is the same as damage to jellies. Damage to constructs...the same as damage to gremlins.

I really should take some time to find a level with zombies and howlitzers next to each other so I can demonstrate this perfectly.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 04:11
#19
Zinqf's picture
Zinqf
Argent Peacemaker Damage Test is up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgoXTjd8ptM

Also did damage testing on Zombies and Jellies in Depth 10.
Argent Peacemaker did 32 damage to the Zombie. (Should be bonus damage, but T2 Poison Zombies are receiving normal damage)
Argent Peacemaker did 21 damage to the Jelly.
Argent Peacemaker only dealt 50% higher damage to the Zombie than the Jelly.
Zombie is supposed to take bonus dmg, Jelly supposed to take reduced dmg.

Also did damage testing on Fiends in Depth 11.
Leviathan Blade did 125 damage to the fiend. (100% Normal Damage)
Acheron did 83 damage to the fiend. (50% Normal Damage; 50% Shadow Damage)
Leviathan Blade did roughly 50% higher damage to the fiend.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 06:26
#20
Zenpai's picture
Zenpai
First problem is that you're

First problem is that you're testing this gun in the third stratum. Test it in the 5th or 6th stratum (Tier 3) because it's a Tier 3 weapon.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 07:08
#21
Trias's picture
Trias
@zinqf

Produce any actual damage table for the AP, before coming to any conclusions.
*We know that the colors of the damage numbers are bugged.
*We also know damage resistance/weakness bonus is not a constant. (For pure dmg weapons, "strong" monsters take anywhere between 18% and 40% dmg, "weak" monsters take between 113% and 190% damage, all depending on depth and weapon.)
* Monsters in danger rooms are different from other monsters and take different damage.

Your video therefore doesn't really tell us anything.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 08:27
#22
Volebamus's picture
Volebamus
This thread is very

This thread is very disappointing, as there was a stratum right before FSC (and actually, after the rotation, still is now) that has the fiend levels which are also populated by Spookats.

Also just tried it now. Depth 19, fully leveled Argent Peacemaker with no damage bonus to both Fiends and Undead:
Damage to Normal Devilite: 53
Damage to Normal Spookat: 53

Again, very disappointed that this was easily testable, yet debating without easily comparable numbers.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 08:32
#23
Bekjan's picture
Bekjan
I have noticed another

I have noticed another strange thing about weapon damages.

Divine Avenger deals effective damage against mini jellies in Royal Jelly Palace depth 15, it showed yellow color, it should have shown white since jellies are neutral to normal and elemental damages.

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