Spiral Knights - You Know, this is the same thing every time, and it gets quite annoying.

You Know, this is the same thing every time, and it gets quite annoying.

40 replies [Last post]

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 13:50

Bigfootm

I'm talking about how OOO gives us stuff, or discounts, then people complain an ask for more.

Examples:

•AH. Everyone wanted it, then everyone said it was lame.

•Shadow Lairs and Accessories. They give us this and then some say they cost too much (Accessories) or it's so hard (Shadow Lairs).

•Unbinding Items. A big one, then people complain that it's too much.

•Currently, Shadow Key discounts. I've seen ingame and on the forums people saying 1,350 CE is too much. Guys, they didn't have to give us a discount, ok?

•And much more.

Be happy with what you get guys. They don't have to give us this stuff.

I can just predict now:

As soon as the Color Change comes out, people will say it costs too much, it's not worth it, it's lame, etc.

OOO, thank you, for everything. Keep up the great work.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 13:53

Vlad

Garbage.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 14:03

Trying

I kinda have to agree with

I kinda have to agree with bigfoot on this. People are like little babies asking for more and more without caring about how the economy and such are going to be affected

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 14:05

Hanktron

guess what

this forum is 99% entitled 15 year olds, if you haven't noticed.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 14:07

Bigfootm

What Dark Ritual?

Thank you Trying. And yes, CE complaints as well. If you know it will rise, why not buy some now then sell it a week from now?

@Hanktron

So true, but still.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 14:09

Hanktron

actually

there are a lot of reasons not to

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 14:54

Kitty-Softpaws

The discount theey give us

The discount theey give us isn't much of a discount. If it's just them reducing the price for us since it's thanksgiving or for them to lure in more customers, idk which. 200/$2.00 isn't that much of a difference..But yah sure it helps, tho i won't be buying it lol.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 14:59

Bigfootm

What Dark Ritual?

@Hector

Wasn't really aiming the forum one at you, saw a few others that they remove themselves. True, it may not be much of a discount, but it's better then nothing.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 15:15

Bluedigit

It's a 25% reduction.OOO

It's a 25% reduction.
OOO probably didn't lower it more because they probably thought so many people would complain about how much CE they spent on the 1800CE-a-pop keys compared to the new price.

OOO should go and make the crown rewards for boxes 25% less to shut them up. But of course that won't work.

EDIT:
@Hanktron

I am the one percent.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 20:40

Aumir

Not really

I am with you about Auction House and unbinding, but the difference between Auction House and Shadow Keys is that nobody wanted them, and still people don't want them. They are unnecesary, they divide player base, they put levels that should be for everyone behind a pay wall. Shadow Key ranting is absolutely rational and a bad design choice that is getting patched instead of removed so people don't feel betrayed if they were taken out of the game.

I won't use Color Change, but I am not going to rant about a service that is given to us with CROWNS at all.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 20:45

#10

Fauxhownd

When is the Color Change

When is the Color Change coming out, and how much will it cost?

Also, when are we going to get Tier 4/The Core and actually get to go BEYOND Depth 29?

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 20:46

#11

Hanktron

wait, what?

"...is that nobody wanted them, and still people don't want them. They are unnecesary (sic)..."

....then why do you care? If you don't want them, it shouldn't bother you that somebody else does.

ITT: entitled 15 year olds complain about things that they don't want but deserve anyway.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 20:51

#12

Aumir

Because

Entitled 12 year olds that call adult people 15 year olds because their mom gives them monies.

I care because we all should be able to run the new content and it is behind a pay wall against all common sense. If you have read all my post you should have got that clear.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 21:00

#13

Hanktron

I did read your entire post and very little is clear.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 21:03

#14

Algol-Sixty

I did read your entire post

I did read your entire post and very little is clear.

May I suggest a reading comprehension class for you?

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 21:12

#15

Hanktron

Shadow Key ranting is

"Shadow Key ranting is absolutely rational and a bad design choice that is getting patched instead of removed so people don't feel betrayed if they were taken out of the game."

This implies that shadow key ranting is a bad design choice, which hardly makes sense.

The fact of the matter is, if you find something to be unnecessary, it shouldn't bother you that it exists.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 21:14

#16

Psychodestroyer

Hm..

@Chrono-Chaos: Are you really Bigfootm? Or am I mistaken?

Anyways, I'd have to agree. I've been playing only for a few months, and my current attitude to the high-cost things are: 'Crud. Gonna be ages before I can even DREAM of those.'

High cost, sure. But it gives me another shiny thing to look at :D

Either way, I agree fully with the Original Post.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 21:16

#17

Aumir

Thanks

Thanks, I just copied your sentence and changed some things to adapt it to my purpose. Hope it serves you to spend more time studying than playing all day long a game. Don't waste your live, youngster! By the way, that "did" of yours in the last sentence, tsk.

And I won't answer anymore to attacks like that from you, we should instead discuss why you (yes, your personal reason, youngster) think Shadow Keys are so needed for you in the game. You are quick disregarding my opinion, but you don't give any real reason for it. I said before, in case you didn't get it yet:

- Shadow Keys are a bad design choice, even p2p players have said that.
- One reason of mine is that they are a pay wall that separates p2p players from f2p, when until now it has been a system where everyone could get everything with the help of the p2p playerbase. Mind you, we have to be grateful to p2p people for inserting CE into the game, I agree with that.
- They aren't taking them out because people have paid for them. If it happens, it will be much later.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 21:24

#18

Hanktron

read and read are read the same but idk if you knew that

The did is perfectly fine. It was for emphasis. If I italicized it, would you understand what I meant?

I don't have any interest in shadow lairs. Absolutely none. I'm not even curious. I don't even know what they look like. I'm not saying they're a good idea. What I am saying is that if nobody wants them and they are completely unnecessary (which seems to be your stance), then what does it matter that they exist? So some (relatively) rich players get to do some level that you don't want to. Who cares? You're in no way entitled to play these levels. The wall is in your mind. Get over it and there is no problem.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 21:31

#19

Aumir

Read again

I want to run the levels. Jesus.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 21:38

#20

Hanktron

proofread your post

Then sack up and run the level. Who's stopping you? Oh wait it's too expensive? Then save up and run it.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 21:40

#21

Aumir

*Facepalm*

...

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 22:59

#22

Hanktron

fyi

"I am with you about Auction House and unbinding, but the difference between Auction House and Shadow Keys is that nobody wanted them, and still people don't want them. They are unnecesary (sic)..."

The "they" in these sentences are generally read to be referring to "Shadow Keys". So if it's true that nobody wants them, it's hard for a logical reader to make the leap to understand that you want to run the lairs.

You're being an entitled little 15 year old if you're really bothered that something exists in a game that you can't access. Were you pissed off that you couldn't run FSC when you were a 2* champ? No, you sucked it up. Suck it up and run the shadow lairs when you're ready. They explicitly say they're for the toughest knights. You ain't one, gramps.

My point is that when you signed up for this game, nobody told you that you'd have free reign to all the content forever. You should be happy that new content (especially that you're interested in) exists. Its existence has made you no worse off. It only added to your potential enjoyment of this game. If the cost is higher than your enjoyment, you probably shouldn't run the lairs. If you don't run them, you're still no worse off. It's a win win!

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 21:56

#23

Marqui

TEXT WALL AHOY

@OP

While the suggesting of new content hasn't always been handled very well, that's the nature of an MMO.
The developers continue to add on, so when one thing gets done, it's a question of "well, what do we do next?"
And if you're trying to appease the player-base, who better to ask than the players?

Unfortunately, I wasn't here for the implementation of the AH, so I can't discuss that.
However, starting with the Shadow Keys: the rewards for using Shadow Keys were released before the actual information on how to obtain the keys was given, so I would assume that the player-base believed it was something that they could readily obtain.
However, the keys were put into an expensive gambling system. Yes, the keys are expensive in terms of cr ==> CE conversion, there's no doubt about that, but the majority of complaints were the way they were acquired, not so much the price (which IMO still seems overpriced even for end-game).

As for the accessories, they were shown before we were told how to obtain them (bringing up hype), and considering this was implemented as semi-expensive gambling (which bugged everyone, myself including), I'm fairly sure most of the outcry was due to the availability of accessories moreso than the cost.

And as far as unbinding items? The Unbinding cost of an item exceeds the amount of CE it would cost to craft an entirely new piece of equipment, with the pressure of crafting becoming increasingly higher as unbinding costs continue to rise. Essentially, players wanted to unbind weapons, and were given the message to just make another one. I don't suppose anyone actually finds it liable to unbind equipment, save for a few FoV merchants and such?

The price drops for Thanksgiving are appreciated, but I believe the outcry comes from people without a disposable income (as Hanktron put, entitled 15 year olds, which arguably make up most of the player-base), so while the price drop for some people makes the price cheaper, for most it just makes the mountain to climb just a little bit shorter, if that metaphor makes any sense.

TL;DR

Yeah, there's complaining, and while not all of that is viable, most of it has reasoning behind it. What is asked for is given, but with ticks and tacks added on that are a deal-breaker for some, and while outcry may be loud, I have a hard time thinking that the majority of players aren't thankful, but instead just aren't pouring out their thanks as well as complainers do their hate.

-----

@everyone coupling maturity/ immaturity with age
Please, stop this, you don't gain maturity with age (ever heard of a man-child for instance?), and being 15 and coupled with some of the people on here is incredibly irritating. Mentioning that I'm 15 might lead to me being ignored, but I figure it's worth mentioning.

Sorry for the text wall by the way, guess I can't help myself.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 22:05

#24

Hanktron

lol

The fact that you take offense to me saying the player base (or at least forum base) is a bunch of entitled 15 year tells me you're not ready to be mature.

You might be mature for a 15 year old, you are probably mature for this forum, but most 30 year olds (even the immature ones) are probably more mature than you are. That's not even a bad thing; it's just life. You get more mature as you experience life. I pulled 15 out of my ass. Would it make you happier if I said 12?

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 22:10

#25

Psychodestroyer

Dude

"entitled little 15 year old"

Can you please stop saying that? I'M 15, and I've never felt entitled to ANYTHING. Even the last slice of cake when I haven't had a piece :/

What he/she means by the 'bad design' line is that for Shadow keys, you need a hell lot of ce to get one. The initial plan was to let them be rare LB items, but people used THOUSANDS of CE to open HUNDRENDS of LBs and still never got one.

The cost of them is still high, so therefore, out of reach for F2P.

Yeah, we know that, it's just that some of us take it better than others do. I can be bothered to wait. There are others with a shorter fuse than me, no offence dudes who do, so obviously they say the price is too high.

It's there, its possible to get, just that it's one of those things that is made so it ends up as 'Here it is! You can have it, if you can reach it.'

That's what ticks people off. (Not me, like I said, I can wait)

TL:DR: Just stop with the entitled 15 year old thing please. I'm getting a little more then irked at generalised comments. Don't take it personally, it stems from previous IRL experience.

EDIT: @Marqui YEAH! Another 15 year old who uses sense! So I'm NOT alone! T.T

But to be honest, I can be immature when I want to be XD

But dude, you're talking about PHYSICAL maturity. I'm talking about MENTAL maturity. There is a difference, believe it or not.

And how can you say that if we take offence to the whole 15 year old thing show's that we're not ready to be mature? Dude, you said the 99% of the forum base are entitled 15 year olds. Disregarding the everyone that think's they're the 1%, you just called everyone entitled 15 year olds. I'm pretty sure that counts as an insult, i.e. people are entitled to take offence.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 22:07

#26

Marqui

@HanktronFigured this would

@Hanktron

Figured this would happen, the whole post goes completely disregarded.
I'm not in the mood to play footsies with you Hank, and I've got way too much on my hands to be in a flame war.

My post is there to read if you ever decide to man up.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 22:14

#27

Aumir

Still the same old

You can't tell is a good design choice yet. Do you think it is a good design choice to charge you 1k+ of CE just for running a dungeon once? Even if you split it up between four friends, the cost of just running once the dungeons is horrendously high. I am not telling that I have to wait to run them yet, but charging an entry fee is not good, even if you are a p2p player.

Your other point... the "well you aren't going to have everything free forever, haha" point. I signed up for a "free to play" MMO. The definition of "free to play" implies that I will be able to access content for free and yes, I know it won't be all content as I have played many, many free MMOs before this one. And I can tell you one thing: when an MMO starts charging for basic content such as "levels" it becomes just a p2p populated game, and that isn't good for OOO, trust me. They would get money, yeah, but their image as a company would be damaged forever. (Insert Castlevania: Symphony of the Night line from final battle end)

Shadow Keys have damaged the game, and OOO noticed that. Why? Because that is why now Shadow Keys are for sale and not just a "rare item from a random box that you get as a random wheel prize that you have to pay to open it". It was complicated before, wasn't it? And I tell you one more thing: expect in the LONG future (yeah, it certainly won't happen now) to get Shadow Keys requirements even softer or just free altogether. OOO has done a great game and done great balancing until just now and I trust them. In fact, even if the recent elevator pass month pisses me off, I accept it because OOO still has to do a great deal of experimenting with the game. Shadow Keys are the ONLY thing I disagree with, I like Shadow Lairs and its idea... as you can probably tell because of the lore topic I made.

Edit: Whoa there, I got carried away and more people posted! I won't change the post anyways, and yeah, I don't tend to use that kind of vocabulary (the 15 year old thing). Sorry about that.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 22:20

#28

Hanktron

lol again

I read your post, but I didn't really get anything out of it and was not interested in responding to the bulk of it. We even agree on some of it. Do you want a pat on the back or something? I honestly was just having fun with amuir and his ambiguous pronoun usage.

I've never really said that accessories, shadow lairs, etc are good or bad. My arguments have always been on the basis that people are crying like entitled 14 year olds and acting like they deserve it all now (I also did argue that people needed to wait for OOO to price things accurately, but that kind of falls in the same category).

amuir:
Shadow Keys may have been bad as they were initially introduced, but OOO likes to tweak things. If you allow them time to accurately price things (it's my guess that they're still working on that), shadow keys will be just like elevator fees. Except larger. You can play the entire game without paying a cent, by the way. Shadow Lairs are still open to free to play people. I haven't paid a dime and I could run them if I cared (I clearly don't). They aren't hurting you. Your impatience may be, though.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 22:29

#29

Marqui

As a side note

I think the whole "Free-to-play" argument isn't really viable.
I mean, yes, it means that you are able to play (some) content for free, but when you look at it from the developers point of view, you realize that it isn't really about the player as much as it is the money (not to say players are ignored, but they aren't the reason for business).

For example: An MMO called "DCUnivers Online" went F2P a little while back and earned a 700% increase in their income because of it.
So, really, F2P isn't meant to be F2P, it's like a demo to bring in paying players, which invalidates the F2P argument right?

--edit--
@Aumir
After reading that a little bit, yeah, I agree with charging for basic activities.
Charging for a "demo" isn't exactly a cool thing to do.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 22:29

#30

Aumir

Thanks

And I will indeed be patient and wait until I like what OOO offers me about them. All clear, all good, enjoy the game. In fact, I was finishing a Tier 3 run amidst all this xD
And now, it is time to go to sleep...
(Man, 5 characters, a u m i r xD)

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 22:43

#31

Xairathan

Free to Play, so what?

I'm a F2P player. Today I raised my funds level from 21k to 92k, by selling a Sealed Sword and Blackened Crest for profits of 250 and 500 CE, respectively. I'm not saying everyone has access to these kinds of stuff- it took me a month to get that crest alone- but it's possible for F2P players to save up. Furthermore, one does not have to buy their keys from Boost: one can get the key from a player who is selling, or just wait and pay a quarter of that price as an entrance fee into a Shadow Lair.

A piece of advice to F2P who want fast cr/ce: spam RT/JK/FSC runs. There actually ARE people out there who will buy the token weapons, and you can get about 3-6k CR per run (depending on the run itself). Also you can go into Haven 1 and sell your spare materials and such (I spent maybe 50% of my Tier 2 days in Haven 1 yelling "Selling MATs!") and also buy/sell CE. Buying low and selling high is very good business in quantities under 100 CE.

So it's not impossible to get the required 1350/1500/1800 CE. It just takes patience... something that apparently is short in coming these days.

P.S. I'm a 15 year old too. Stereotype much?

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 22:53

#32

Festering

The real question, Xairathan,

The real question, Xairathan, is if you feel entitled. jk. But seriously, I don't know why everyone is making such a big deal about it. I'm just glad to see knew content. If anything, shadow lairs should be viewed as the end game. I was getting so sick of FSC, and t3 that when OOO introduced shadow lairs, I was super excited. Sure it's a little pricey, but it's just like upgrading an item to 5*. It's really not even that bad. Just suck it up and save for them. At least we finally have more end-game content. The game was getting boring.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 23:04

#33

Xairathan

@Festering

The only thing I'm entitled to is the right to play without having to listen to everyone complaining while I'm trying to sell mats. Jkay as well, but yes, this new content was supposed to be directed at the (supposedly rich) endgamers, or those with connections. It's not meant for little 3* and 4*s to say "Cool, content! Let's go! Oh no, expensive! Let's whine!"

I agree, sucking it up and saving is the best. I worked hard (like a devilite XD) for my gear, and I'm glad to say it was worth every crown I spent on it. I've had my lucky breaks, and I've had my bad days, but what it comes down to is just patience, and not 'entitlement' or 'this is mine' or anything like that. But while I'm at it... "Selling MATs!" XD

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 01:35

#34

Twiddle

I agree with everything

I agree with everything except the shadow lairs.

It's new! (sort of)
It's challenging!
It's rewarding!
It costs over 1000 energy per try!

Wai... what? I would be running it repeatedly if it weren't for the ridiculous price tag.

But everything else (auction house, unbinding, etc) I agree with.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 09:08

#35

Bigfootm

What Dark Ritual?

I must say, the Shadow Lairs are a bit overpriced, but you see more complaining that they're hard. They're supposed to be. THAT'S what makes it irritating.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 09:17

#36

Xylka-Mkii

All I can say is...

I'm with Bigfootm.

No more point in arguing about this stuff imo.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 15:24

#37

Twiddle

I must say, the Shadow Lairs

I must say, the Shadow Lairs are a bit overpriced, but you see more complaining that they're hard. They're supposed to be. THAT'S what makes it irritating.

I see what you mean. Yeah, I expect them to be hard and possibly borderline unfair. They are end game content after all.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 15:58

#38

Chris

We wanted an auction house,

We wanted an auction house, not a ridiculous crown sink that was almost not profitable at all (fees).
We wanted new content, not rehashed (not too hard mind you) levels that cost FAR too much to enter.
We wanted to unbind items, but it came with a ridiculous increased crafting cost and made all our items bind when we crafted them, it also costs a STUPID amount to unbind the items, I'd much rather not have this update at all. The binding update literally made every single player in the game lose insane amounts of wealth and make gear much harder to obtain for everybody. It only helped people who had insanely good UVs on 5* gear and wanted to unbind them and sell them.

Shadow lairs are not hard, anybody who finds them hard needs to practice more.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:16

#39

Marqui

@ chris This

@ chris

This

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:35

#40

Nodocchi

@Chris I dunno about you but

@Chris
I dunno about you but I made stupid amounts of money off the binding update so I don't think literally every single player in the game lost money from it. I've made money off the AH and have seen people make entire fortunes off the AH. None of these updates stopped entrepreneuring players from making money.

In any case the hate players have for gambling is ridiculous. Name me one game that does not have some element of chance(i.e. gambling) in them and I'll name you a game that is boring. Rare items, combat (in some games), upgrading, and many other things are all based on chance. Obtaining rare items in any game essentially devolves into gambling, you fight a boss or some monster way past the point of enjoyment just for that rare material or part you need to craft the ultimate weapon. You essentially gamble days of your time for the chance of obtaining some item. Some of you might say that this is different from lockboxes since you are actually playing the game instead of just spending money, but how are you obtaining the money to buy the keys in the first place? You get it by playing the game don't you? You spend your time playing the game so you can then gamble for a rare item. There is no difference between this and any other game. Every game you ever loved has used this system, there is no RPG that does not drop loot based on chance. (At least none that I have played)

In any game there will be some element of luck involved and therefore gambling. Why complain about it on here and not everywhere else? You know why? Because luck makes a game fun. Getting that rare item everyone else wants is fun, not knowing whether you will win or lose a battle but pulling through at the very end is fun, doing anything where you are not sure of the outcome but getting a good outcome despite all odds is what makes games fun. If there was no element of chance and you knew exactly whether you would win or lose a battle or exactly what items a certain monster drops every time, that isn't fun. What is predictable is not fun. Enjoyment of a game does not come about because everything about it is predictable, it is that element of chance that makes any game shine.

So please, stop and think about what you are actually denouncing the next time you say gambling sucks all the fun out of a game. Because what fun is there if you aren't betting against the odds?

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You Know, this is the same thing every time, and it gets quite annoying.