Spiral Knights - Weak to Normal damage??

Weak to Normal damage??

30 replies [Last post]

Sat, 12/24/2011 - 15:18

Nacho

What about a new monster family that is strong against every kind of damage but stays neutral to normal. Just like vanaduke.

Normal damage is right now neutral against every monster, you can tell why just by the name: normal. The reason why i thought about that is because normal damage weapons arent that great and people often prefer to use ones with special damage. Ive never seen someone with a Valiance, so this gun would be much more used with this monsters.

So what you think, is this a good idea? My reason are to make normal weapons more useful, and this wouldnt be a big change on swords at least. The whole point about this was to give normal weapons a bump but not a big one. This guys would be a kinda rare monster, just like lumbers they would not appear in big quantities. For example, you would still want to have shadow weapons on the jelly path.

Explanation
Right now a Normal weapon is not necessary. Carrying two special damage weapons clearly gives you an advantage. Heres a comparison between having 2 different special weapon and one special and one normal:

2 special weapons:....................one special and one normal weapon
4 strong damage.......................2 strong damage
2 neutral...................................4 neutral.

Having 2 wapons is way better. But with the update im suggesting you get this:

2 special weapons:....................one special and one normal weapon
4 strong damage.......................2 strong damage
2 neutral...................................5 neutral
1 low damage

Wich seems much fair. It may be different if we take in count the type of weapons you are using and the charge attacks they have, but we have a variety of weapons, wathever you choose the damage is the same and if you make the right chooses you still get an advantage while using 2 special weapons, thats why we need an incentive to use normal weapons.

Notice that fighting this monsters with special weapons wouldnt be impossible. This just gives you a little advantage while fighting with a normal weapon. Having a special weapon is supossed to give you a little help fighting certain enemies but a disadvantage while fighting others as well, but since you can have 2 special weapons at a time that weak spot is no longer there. We have 4 weapon slots, thats enough space for every kind of weapon including normal, so if you fill every slot with a diferent damage weapon you are prepared for every thing.

Monster Description:
To make this have sense this guys need to have a convincing "weak to normal" look. What i was thinking is to make em look like energy beings, therefor it would be perfectly explainable to make em strong against shadow and elemental since they absorb the energy. It would also make sense for them to be still aggected by normal, a physical media would affect their structure, another way to explain their lack of strenght against normal damage would be that since they are pure energy they would have no defense against physical damage and even though piercing is physical damage stabing this monsters doesnt affect their whole structure so they stay strong agains piercing.

To be clear heres the damage resistance table.
Weak to: Nothing
Neutral to: Normal
Strongly Resistant to: Piercing, Shadow and Elemental

Sat, 12/24/2011 - 15:25

Psychodestroyer

Mmmm

I don't think so. Normal was made to be NORMAL. Making a weak and resist would be kind of...contradictory?

Sorry, I don't think so. Normal is Normal.

Sun, 12/25/2011 - 18:56

Espil

Intriguing

As a fan of pure normal damage weapons, I would be happy to have a monster to fight and avoid having an "ideal" weapon outshine mine.

Sat, 12/24/2011 - 15:33

Juances

Shadow/pierce/elemental are

Shadow/pierce/elemental are strong against something, but also have weakness.
Normal weapons will get a big bump because then they will be strong in some cases but never weak, unless you also add an opposite monster.

Sat, 12/24/2011 - 15:36

Nacho

Yeah i also whough about that

Yeah i also whough about that when making this thread, i still think that its a good way to make normal weapons more useful. Ill try adding a description to the monsters maybe that way it could be a more viable suggestion.

Sat, 12/24/2011 - 17:49

Tdhk

Seriously?

First a cows idea, then changing normal so it does bonus damage to some monsters? Really? No real offense intended, but please think before you post. Normal damage was, is and will be, a way for anyone to deal damage to anything at no risk of having a weakness or strength. Terrible idea.

Sat, 12/24/2011 - 18:14

Nacho

@Tdhk

Well i think that the cows idea is a pretty good one :)
I wasnt sure about this one, im still a little unsure, but i want to know you arguements about this. The reason i made this thread was to give normal weapons at least a useful situation to use em.

I uderstand that normal damage is about what you say, hittin stuff with no risks of weakness but having strenght against some kind of monster is aguable.

Look above, no monster would be strong against normal so no problem there. As i said i believe that this could be a good way to improve the use of normal weapons. Give me your reasons why you think that it would be a bad idea and i will take them in count.

Sat, 12/24/2011 - 21:37

Tdhk

Weapon balance.

Lets look at the basic facts. Each type of damage has an upside and a downside. The downside will be listed first, followed by its appropriate upside.

Elemental:- Weak to gremlins and beasts, strong to constructs and undead.

Shadow:- Weak to undead and fiends, strong to gremlins and jellies.

Piercing:- Weak to constructs and jellies, strong to fiends and beasts.

NORMAL:- Has no strength against any enemy type, has no weakness to any enemy type.

The whole point of a normal weapon is so that it can be the jack of all trades. If a floor contains gremlins and beasts, using a shadow or piercing weapon, we have 1 advantage and 1 nuetral. Thus a shadow or piercing weapon would be a good choice, and chances are that a player has either one type or the other.. However, if we look at the common pairing of gremlins and constructs (any jigsaw valley level for example), only 1 weapon type provides advantage without weakness, and that is shadow. By my play experiences, shadow is a much less used weapon, due to it being weaker endgame in FSC and players opting for the more common elemental typing. Normal can kick itself in here. It will provide CONSISTANT, DEPENDABLE damage, instead of leaving a player out in the deep end against a room full of gremlins with just an elemental weapon.

Normal is also an excellent first choice of weapon for a casual F2P player. Given they play a moderate amount, say 300-400 mist a week, then I doubt they could afford to amass a large, diverse arsenal filled with shadow, elemental and piercing weapons appropriate for each level. A normal weapon gives them something to use that doesn't leave them in a pickle if something unexpected pops up (like 8 alpha wolvers in a contruct arena, or polyps in an undead arena). Normal weapons are there for one thing. Take on anything, anytime, anywhere.

Sun, 12/25/2011 - 17:29

Nacho

Well yeah, i understand the

Well yeah, i understand the purpose of normal damage. According to my idea swords fighters would have no problem fighting this monsters. Gunners and bombers might find a little trouble.

Maybe with a different approach this could work Tdhk what you think about this? This guys are strong against anything but normal, that way it would be totally explainable the preference to use normal damage against this monsters. I believe that way it could work without corrupting normal damage and reaching my goal to give normal weapons a moment to shine without being overshadowed by any other weapon. Look at my post i updated it.

Sun, 12/25/2011 - 19:00

Espil

Drones

I believe that drones have a neutral defense against any weapon. Some kind of super drone with stronger defenses could make for some interesting combat.

Sun, 12/25/2011 - 19:05

#10

Softhead

Those energy beings...

Pierce is a physical attack. So it is weak to normal AND piercing.

Sun, 12/25/2011 - 19:59

#11

Nacho

Drones are monsters with no

Drones are monsters with no inteligence, thats why you see them going around on set areas and with set moves. Drones are neutral to every kind of damage, what im aiming for is a monster thats strong against every kind of damage but normal that way normal would have its moment. I want this enemy to be something like a challenge so thats why i dont want it to be a drone.

Pierce is indeed a physical attack but piercing is about stinging enemies, so no big area is affected that way this monsters would still remain strong against piercing. It doesnt affect their whole structure.

Sun, 12/25/2011 - 20:50

#12

The-Rawrcake

@Nacho

Vanaduke's mask works in this manner. now go jump for joy. /thread

Sun, 12/25/2011 - 21:24

#13

Nacho

I know and sometimes people

I know and sometimes people like to use leviathan blade on it. I want to expand that to normally encountered monsters. That way a normal weapon would be a nice adition to the arsenal. Right now a normal weapon is not so necessary, you can just have two weapons of different special damage and that way you are prepared for every situation.

Sun, 12/25/2011 - 22:45

#14

Heavy-Duty

...

Normal=Neutral. Everything else has weak and strong points while Normal has same points all round.

Sun, 12/25/2011 - 23:12

#15

Nacho

In my post i never say im

In my post i never say im changing that. Normal will remain neutral, the monsters are those who will gain defense against all special damage. That way a normal weapon would be more worthy to be carried around on the clockworks.

Mon, 12/26/2011 - 00:46

#16

Frocus

i like it

this will give me a reason to get a vailance.

and for those who dont understand this thread. here is a strength and weakness chart for the special monster.

Special Monster- resistant to: piercing, shadow, elemental. weak to: nothing. neutral to: normal

Mon, 12/26/2011 - 17:36

#17

Nacho

Thanks thats the whole point

Thanks thats the whole point of doing this thread, to give people a reason for getting a normal weapon.

Mon, 12/26/2011 - 18:09

#18

Psychodestroyer

About that....

I ALWAYZ HAZ NORMAL WEAPON.

Tempered Calibur is my PARTNER. He goes, I GO.

But really, I love being able to take o absolutely anything with my one weapon :D

Mon, 12/26/2011 - 21:27

#19

Nacho

Calibur line is pretty

Calibur line is pretty awesome. I got a triglav because just by the look its supossed to be sick, i love it but its not as cool as its supossed to be. When i got my voltedge i found that i got much better results to carry my voltedge and my dark thorn blade.

In clockworks tunnels where anything can appear its better to have two special weapons than one special and one normal.

2 special weapons:
4 strong damage
2 neutral

one special and one normal weapon
2 strong damage
4 neutral.

A person with 2 special weapons clearly has and advantage, but with the update im suggesting you get this:

2 special weapons:
4 strong damage
2 neutral
1 low damage

one special and one normal weapon
2 strong damage
5 neutral

Wich seems much fair. It may be different if we take in count the type of weapons you are using and the charge attacks they have, but we have a variety of weapons and wathever you choose the damage is the same and if you make the right chooses you still get an advantage while using 2 special weapons, thats why we need an incentive to use normal weapons.

Mon, 12/26/2011 - 22:08

#20

The-Rawrcake

well... just buffing this

well... just buffing this monster group against piercing, elemental, and shadow just seems like a more clever way of making it weak to normal...

Normal =/= neutral, the whole point of normal isn't to be neutral, it's to be normal. It's just normal. Not great, not bad. Normal.

Normal, as I said, is not great by definition. Normal would excel and be great on that resistant to specialty types monster, making it not normal.

It would also make people feel burdened to get a normal weapon, being an extremely bad addition to the game. The whole goal of specialty types is to have a set of multiple specialty weps that works great on everything. they are specialty as in special. they SHOULD excell. by definition. Thing is, specialty weapons specialize, therefore you need more than just one because they have down-sides, unlike normal.

I have, since I more than slammed the however many amounts of $$ to haveaccess to a second account, a F2P newbie character.

I LOVE my calibur, and no its not just because I am a newb on that F2Per. The charge attack is amazing in tier 3 (if positioned right) and I NEVER feel like it isn't doing enough damage on its normal hits. If I used specialty weapons for my 2 F2P wep slots (pierce blade and elemental gun) i would feel obligated to gun a slime with a neutral-dealing gun that isn't great until 5* -.- I would much rather use a normal, all around weapon.

So that's that. normal will stay normal, normal weps are awesome. on my non-F2P character which is my identity knight, I am a gunner and find the supernova gun (or its lower star version state) extremely nice because I can use its knockback on any mob i encounter without fail due to ZERO ANNOYING POLARIS SHOCK.

Mon, 12/26/2011 - 22:12

#21

The-Rawrcake

Psycho said: "I ALWAYZ HAZ

Psycho said: "I ALWAYZ HAZ NORMAL WEAPON.

Tempered Calibur is my PARTNER. He goes, I GO.

But really, I love being able to take o absolutely anything with my one weapon :D"

I say I always have a normal weapon as well with pride. In my post up there ^ I use the supernova line because its utility knockback works on everything and will not fail because shock makes them not knock back. So gunners and swordsman and bombers alike can have normal weapons that are useful (nitronome for bombers because they kind of do not have enough specialty bombs to not use one lol)

And i guess I should say sorry for double posting but it wasn't an accident, I honestly think it can make certain things neater....

Mon, 12/26/2011 - 22:58

#22

Nacho

Its ok man :) double post as

Its ok man :) double post as much as you want.

Yeah man i took in count all that when i thought about this. The thing is that since knights can easily change between 2 weapons, and even more, normal weapons are simply overshadowed. If we could only carry one weapon then normal damage would accomplish its goal.

This doesnt apply for some weapons though, like your supernova and the calibur because their special attack makes them unique and worth to be used. But for other weapons like valiance and triglav.

So what im trying to say is that special weapons have a strong and a weak side but people can have 2 weapons at a time so the weak side is there no more. So what you have now are, just as i said on the table, 4 strong points and no weak ones. Changing one special weapon for a normal one wont be a good treat then if that weapon has no special feature like the calibur and the supernova.

So will people feel vurdened to get a normal weapon?
Maybe, but looking at it form another angle special weapons would have their weaknesses as theyre suppossed to.

Would it be really necessary to get a normal weapon?
No, as i said in my post this monsters would be kinda rare and you can still fight em with any weapon just as you do when you have 2 elemental weapons and you encounter a gremlin, you fight it, you may struggle but i bet you fight.

Mon, 12/26/2011 - 23:03

#23

The-Rawrcake

And to you, I will tell you,

And to you, I will tell you, both valiance and triglav need buffed. The issue isn't necessarily normal damage, but the weapons themselves is where the core of the problem exists.

See how this ties in to what I complain about? Balancing of the armor. You can make a thread about it, but make sure title contains the issue b/c, by public guestimation, OOO just reads titles in suggestion thread as there is no GM feedback whatsoever :(

Mon, 12/26/2011 - 23:46

#24

Nacho

Thats what ive always

Thats what ive always believed, they just look at the titles and see whats the most repeated. That makes me angry >:-(
If i saw nick in the street i would go and kick him, haha no not really.

I also agree that those weapons need a buff but i believe i got a point there, the whole thing of being able to switch to a different weapon eliminates the cons of the previous weapons making normal damage unimportant.

Calibur and supernova have some awesome knockback but if there were weapons just like them in more than 1 special damage they wouldnt be so great. Normal weapons arent supossed to have some special feature that makes them "better" than special weapons. In a very strange way valiance is just as its supossed to be, like a normal alchemer or something like that.

Just as i said above special damage should have at least one weak spot, thats how it spossed to be. Im not asking to take away the ability to switch weapons from us, that would be insane, im asking to add this monsters so special damage has its weakness and normal remains almost neutral. And it wouldnt be a wow-thats-not-fair update, i can still kill a bunch of gremlins with my voltedge and im saying a horde of gremlins. Imagine this guys that would be a little rare wont be much of a challenge.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 08:24

#25

Oakgear

This topic has no need to continue

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 04:46

#26

Nacho

Why?

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 14:56

#27

Aumir

Because...

Because some people don't know about Vanaduke's mask. It would be interesting to have something that resisted all minus Normal outside it. I mean, Drones could have been that! Some of them also look like masks, so...

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 18:28

#28

Nacho

Well the drones suck, but the

Well the drones suck, but the fact that vana´s mask is a mask isnt why its strong against everything XD

Yeah Vanaduke is supossed to be something unexpected but it would be cool to have a kinda rare monster thats strong against everything in the clockwoks as well.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 18:52

#29

Jpwn

Some people are misunderstanding

Nacho does have a good point with his idea. It wouldn't affect the normal=neutral idea. It would only add some more sentimental value to pure normal weapons (mostly guns and bombs). If you think about, all it would do is put a little weakness in some of the other weapons, but normal would stay the same. It's not going positive or anything, it's simply staying "normal"

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 21:49

#30

Nacho

Yeah man, thanks for the

Yeah man, thanks for the support. Thats what im suggesting. Special damage is supossed to have a weakness anyway, and even with this the difference wouldnt be that great, normal is still normal.

Today i finally saw a Valiance and i am really dissapointed, it sucks. And it doesnt need any improvement, its just as its supossed to be a normal version of an alchemer. But with the update im suggesting it would have at least some kind of value as you said.

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