Banning for trade spamming.
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 11:40
Let's face it, the SK community is driven largely by its economy. There is only so much the game offers. After clearing essentially what is just the same levels over and over again (except everything being randomized), what else is there to do? Acquire gear to clear those levels faster, PVP, and trading. The last topic leads me to my point: why is spamming bannable? Or more specifically, why is trade spamming bannable? I'd understand if you're spamming nonsense repeatedly for the sole purpose of annoying players, but for trade spamming?
I'm asking this now as I received the generic message which I assume every player who has been "caught" spamming gets, that spam is illegal since it annoys players. I'm ignoring the fact that I probably do the same thing as every other player trying to sell something, yet I'm the only one receiving a warning (using the term 'only one' very loosely; meaning that the majority of other players trade spamming are not getting a warning). Just stating that spamming is illegal is not sufficient. There are questions where no official answer can be found. Where should we go to ask them? I'll leave my questions here now for posterity or if anyone can point me to an official answer.
1) What is an acceptable time between sending the same message in the Trade channel?
2) Is sending trade messages in places other than the Trade channel (i.e. Zone channel, shouting, general chat, etc) considered illegal?
Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to follow the rules, or at least what is considered acceptable, but I don't know what is. The following is more or less just a rambling on trade spamming and to elaborate on my questions or my personal experience, so feel free to read or skip it if you'd like.
I don't mind debating points to strengthen my argument or to find flaws in my judgement. I've read through recent forum topics on the subject but they didn't satisfy me, where the majority of the thread consists of players offering conflicting advice on what they feel is and is not acceptable. For anyone curious, the places I've spammed when I have something to sell is the Trade channel and in Haven 1 by shouting, together, usually as quick as it is allowed (before your voice gets hoarse). If they instate a period between how fast you can send messages in a channel, doesn't that lead to the conclusion that if you send a message as quickly as you are allowed, it is within the established limits and is not illegal?
So let's assume that the previous point was not the reason why I received a warning. Then was it because I was shouting in Haven 1? I'm going to make the general statement that every person spamming something in the Trade channel is also parroting the message elsewhere. Why? Because it gets the message to more people. So does that mean I have the right to report every single player I see in Haven 1 trying to sell something through shouts to GMs, and they will all receive warnings and eventually be banned if they continue?
When you want to complain about a user, the system gives you multiple chances to cancel your complaint by just ignoring them. I understand that this is most likely to cut down the amount of incoming complaints from players, but that leads to the following question, does OOO consider harassment to be less serious of a problem than spamming? That makes zero sense to me. I also understand lots of people have huge ignore lists from ignoring trade spammers, as I used to do it too when I first started playing. But since then, I've learned to leave trade chat or not join Haven 1. Trade spamming never interferes with my game playing experience if I do both, for when I want to chat or anything else. Guild halls and being in the Bazaar or Arcade works too. There are plenty of alternatives if just ignoring the player is not enough, although I don't see why.
If spamming is considered illegal because of the fact of how it annoys players, then what about beggars and people who randomly trade? Are you saying you don't find this annoying? Should I report these players too instead of ignoring them? I feel like that would be pointless, just like banning people for trade spamming is.
I do have some suggestions though:
Suggestion 1: I'm sure everyone knows that Haven 1 is probably the highest traffic channel, meaning that spam is inevitable. So why not just make Haven 1 as sort of a traders' paradise (as if it isn't already), where any sort of trade spamming is allowed. If you're going to Haven 1 to talk, you'll obviously need to leave Trade channel and not be in the Market area to be able to do so. But to tell you the truth, I don't do either and I still get by fine.
Suggestion 2: Why is the chat only scrollable via clicking the arrows? A scroll bar or making it so you can use the mouse wheel to scroll would make it heaps easier to scan through trade spam.
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 12:10
#2
summary and response
The poster asks (A) why spamming is bannable, (B) how much talking is required for it to be called spamming, and (C) where he can spam without annoying people. (I might have missed something; I started skimming.)
Spamming is bannable because it's extremely annoying. Trade spam on the zone channel is especially bad, because there isn't supposed to be any trade talking on that channel at all. It's annoying because I'm trying to have conversations with people, and I can't even see what they've said, because it gets obliterated by spam.
I don't know what constitutes spamming in the eyes of Three Rings. Maybe it's when another player complains, and then they verify that you've been talking "a lot". But I suggest this rule of thumb: If you're talking at a higher frequency than everyone else, then you're probably spamming. If you and one other person are tied for talking more than anyone else, then you're probably both spamming.
Trade talking in Haven is perfectly reasonable and really effective. But I wonder why anyone would want to spam Haven chat. I mean, if nobody wants to buy your Sealed Sword right now, why would anyone want to buy it five seconds from now? You're dealing with exactly the same people. Wait for new people to arrive on the scene, before re-announcing. As in, wait at least a minute in a busy Haven, or at least 5 minutes in a slow Haven. Or go to a different Haven.
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 12:11
#3
Zelda
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/26258#comment-152634
just gona copy paste this for this kind of threads in the future. imo they should simply change their chat systems, banning for spamming is uh..dumb?
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 12:40
#4
Y'think so?
Ban for spamming is fair enough. I could be trying to chat to a friend over a private line and it would be reaaaally annoying to have it like:
[Random guy]: Plz
[Friend]: [Message here]
[Random guy]: Plz
[Random guy]: Plz
[Random guy]: Plz
[Random guy]: Plz
[Random guy]: Plz
[Random guy]: Plz
[Random guy]: Plz
[Random guy]: Plz
Etcetcetc...
Or, to put it into a more realistic sense...
/Talking
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
A: You know whats funny?
B: What?
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
A: Well,
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
A: A friend of mine recently got banned for spamming...
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
A:And
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
[Zone 1] WTS Heart Pendants, Trinket slots, Striker, 4* recipes, Ascended Calibur ASI VH PM me offer and to see full catalouge
[Zone] A: STOP THAT. I can't even see my own messages!
[Zone 1]: NO. TRYING 2 SELL STUFF HERE.
[Zone] A: DO IT IN TRADE CHAT THEN
[Zone 1] CBF, AND MORE PEOPLE IN ZONE THAN TRADE.
You're trying to type a message to your friend when your chat log is chock full of the same thing, so by the time you actually get it through, it's already been swept past the 'view now' window.
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 12:52
#5
Zelda
i dont think its impossible to block repeated messages for a few minutes before theyre sent. banning for spam is a waste of time for the developers and the players. it should only be used as a last resort, not as a routine activity
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 13:00
#6
Asukalanforum, did your
Asukalanforum, did your appeal go through?
Bopp, to avoid spam, I listed alternatives besides just ignoring the player. You don't have to read through my post though, but guess what the easiest and quickest solution to spamming is: /ignore. If you're having a conversation with someone, will you still be having that conversation when a GM finally gets to your report? Most likely not. I don't know if you're exaggerating, but I don't ignore anyone, am in Haven 1, and can regularly hold conversations with people through tells. Many times with multiple people.
Psychodestroyer, again, /ignore. Do you represent Player A in your hypothetical situation? If so, are you saying you would rather complain about the person spamming or would try to convince the spammer to stop? If you want a quick remedy, I would have to say this is not the best option. The amount of letters you typed could've been used to ignore him. Problem solved.
Trade spammers do not spam forever. Are the same spammers going to be there tomorrow? The day after? Reporting a player because a trade spammer is bothering you now won't change the fact that there will be entirely new spammers the next time you log in.
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 13:02
#7
no, there is an easier solution
No, there is an easier solution, than my ignoring you. I'll let you figure out what it is.
I should have made my main point clearer, so that you could respond to it: What is the purpose in spamming the same channel over and over again? You're not reaching new people. You're just telling the same people the same thing, over and over again. Why don't you wait a little while, for new people to enter the channel?
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 13:20
#8
Go to Haven 1, where trade
Go to Haven 1, where trade spam is more accepted.
if you're still getting banned, lay off the pasting.
Also, take the hint when you paste the same thing a dozen times, are the only thing in the chat window, and nobody's wanting to buy.
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 13:24
#9
A solution to spammers? I
A solution to spammers? I have no problem with them. I'm trying to offer solutions to other people who do. You can add your solution and help them if you'd like. I'm curious though.
You already kind of answer your first question. If spam is clearing the chat before you can read a message, then the purpose of repeating a message would be so that your message is able to be seen in the sea of other messages.
How are you not reaching new people? Every time a player logs in, finishes a Clockworks run, or returns from whatever else they are doing is a new person. With the amount of people on SK, I find it hard to believe any of the above scenarios does not occur at least every 5 seconds.
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 13:34
#10
The only place where trade
The only place where trade spamming in zone and shouts seem to be accepted is in Haven 1. People who are there mostly want to either buy or sell something, or are just interested in general trading. People not interested in this, go to less populated havens and /leave trade, where they should be able to talk to their friends in peace. Trying to reach out to the players who are not in trade channel or Haven 1 is just not worth it on the off chance that one of them thinks "Hm, I might want that random thing this guy is selling".
As a general rule for myself, I tend to wait at least until my own message leaves the chat box before posting another one (only counting messages in trade chat). There is no reason for people to see your message twice on the screen, and there should be plenty of other things to keep you busy between postings (AH browsing, chatting with friends, random previewing etc). If I'm in Haven 1, this is hard to keep track of with everything else going on, so I usually shout my message at a time when nobody else is shouting and post it in trade at that time.
Also, as a response to the last point in #6, if people know that spamming is a bannable offence, there will be less spammers. E.g. not arresting shoplifters just because there are so many of them, doesn't really make sense, does it?
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 13:30
#11
"@Asukalanforum, did your
"@Asukalanforum, did your appeal go through?" Nope, support kinda waited it trough, they answered when everything was almost over (i got temp banned so no point in arguing when ban was over).
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 13:44
#12
Tom-Awsm, exactly. I pretty
Tom-Awsm, exactly. I pretty much do the same thing. I only spam in Haven 1. I also stopped spamming in both Zone and Trade channels a long time ago as I realized it's redundant. I, however, do not wait until my message has cleared before resending it nor do I always try to spam the Trade channel as quickly as it allows me to. Mostly because I don't care to put in the effort to check or spam that much. But I highly doubt that is the main reason why I got a warning whereas many other trade spammers at the same time did not. I'm certain it was because a player reported me. Following that reasoning though, I can report everyone I see shouting trade messages in Haven 1, as it's technically illegal, correct?
Yes, the only deterrence to cut spam would be the fear of being banned. I'm specifically talking about trade spamming in Haven 1 though. You spam essentially the same way I spam. Which means it's against game rules. If I reported you, I'm sure you would get a warning as well.
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 14:06
#13
Is it really worth it?
I can theoretically understand spamming the trade channel, because people join it frequently. (I still hate such spam; that's why I had to turn off /trade on my first day of playing.) I cannot understand spamming a typical Haven; people do not enter the area frequently enough, for the spam to be worth your time, let alone theirs.
This is the last thing I'll say. When you spam, you're not just irritating some weird fringe of society. You are irritating most people. This alone should give you pause --- should make you think, "Is possibly selling one more item really worth the ill-will? Maybe I'm in the wrong here."
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 14:10
#14
@Mew
I knew I shouldn't have TL;DR'd the OP >.<
In that case, I see your point. Spamming in Haven 1 really shouldn't be bannable because everyone does it, and everyone knows it's where people go to trade. Players going around reporting people in Haven 1 are just ignorant imo.
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 14:31
#15
@Mewmewmewmew
That hypothetical situation was ENTIRELY hypothetical. I'm mostly not in Haven (Clockworking!) and if someone is spamming, I mostly don't notice, and if someone is using the wrong chat, I try and direct them to the correct channel.
It was a completely imaginary situation. I'm not sure if many spammers are THAT hard headed anyway.
So idk really. I'm just posting my opinion as if I've experienced the problem, makes it easier for when I actually GET the problem.
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 14:58
#16
Bopp, I agree with you that
Bopp, I agree with you that it doesn't make any sense to spam random Havens. If you've missed what I've said in a few of my previous posts, I do not spam outside Haven 1. I do not use the Zone channel to spam.
You still haven't told me what is a better solution to stop spam. If you're going to tell me it's that the spammer shouldn't spam, then I would say you're going to have a really hard time trying to get everyone to stop.
Who are these people that are effected by trade spam? The people that have conversations in Haven 1? The people who do not want to be spammed but stay in the Trade channel? If GMs want to enforce no trade spam through shouts, announce it somewhere, enforce it, and I can follow that. There are also chat bubbles when you talk. If you really want to have a conversation in Haven 1, don't stand in the horde of people directly under the AH so you can then read the chat bubbles.
If you don't come back or are not responding anymore, I still hope you have a great day!
Tom-Awsm, I can't blame you though, it was long.
Apparently, as long as messages are sent 10 seconds apart, it's supposedly fine. I'm not sure how often you can send a message to the Trade channel before it says your voice is hoarse, but if it's under 10 seconds that just seems silly. Why not allow messages to only be transmitted every 10 seconds then to avoid all that hassle? If it's over 10 seconds, then I have no idea why I would even get a warning for spamming as my messages would be 10 seconds apart or more, unless they mean 10 seconds apart in all outlets (i.e. a message sent to Trade channel must be 10 seconds apart from a message sent through shouting) because I would be guilty there.
Psychodestroyer, I figured as much. But I hate having to click the arrow to find a missed message to read as well. I did suggest that there should be a scroll bar or the implementation of the mouse wheel to work with the chat. I'll get around to throwing that in the suggestion forums if it's not already there.
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 15:12
#17
Something that's already been
Something that's already been suggested lots of times are tabbed chat boxes, idk why they haven't implemented that yet.
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 15:33
#18
I TLDR'd the heck out of OP.
I TLDR'd the heck out of OP. I'm still TLDRing him.
heck, I'm TLDRing the instructions to putting together my kid's new trampoline. You think I care?
you know what, this reply is making me TLDT.
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 15:37
#19
okay, now I'm done
Okay, Mewmewmewmew, I'm glad that you spam only /trade and Haven 1. I still wish that people wouldn't spam /trade, because it would be more valuable to me (and most people, I think) if it weren't full of spam. I never land in Haven 1 (apparently because it's full of traders), so spamming there doesn't bother me personally. But if Three Rings wants to discourage spamming there, I'm fine with that.
Yes, my solution was for you not to spam. Right, you will never be able to shut down every spammer in this way, just as we will never be able to stop every criminal in real life. But we can put social pressure on them, so that fewer of them degrade our quality of life.
I'm not going to say anything new, so I will definitely leave now. You have a nice day too.
Mar, 01/03/2012 - 16:19
#20
There is a 30 second spam
There is a 30 second spam filter.
You cannot spam trade chat unless you are posting non-trade messages.
Use this same 30 second filter when trading in /all
Mié, 01/04/2012 - 06:43
#21
But Chris, what if you are
But Chris, what if you are chatting in /all?
Like, in Haven 1, you're a noob in bazaar talking to another noob in arcade. The 30 sec limit for zone wouldn't be nice.
Instead, as suggested before, we should have a mute button, not ignore button, which simply mutes a certain player for a specified period of time.
Banning for this is too harsh. Maybe just ban the person from speaking in /1 and /2. But complete ban.. that's not nice. UNLESS the player spams like Psychodestroyer said. Then that deserves a warning, and if it persists, I'm all for banning.
Mié, 01/04/2012 - 11:27
#22
Mewmewmewmew, I don't even
Mewmewmewmew, I don't even see a warning on your support history, much less a tempban or a full ban as you discuss in your OP, so I can't speak to your specific case. If the warning you got was received on another account, and you want clarification on the rules, do feel free to contact support directly from that account.
Let's be clear, though, before people are stirred into a panic: Players who produce garden variety chat spam do not get permanently banned on the first offense.
Mié, 01/04/2012 - 11:29
#23
Oh Snap !
Busted !
Lie much ?
Mié, 01/04/2012 - 20:45
#24
Xombie, If spam warnings/bans
Xombie, If spam warnings/bans are generated due to user-reported complaints, why would I use my main account to bait more people into reporting and getting me banned? I also probably wouldn't be spending nearly as much time and effort into this issue otherwise.
Mié, 01/04/2012 - 21:37
#25
In my opinion, these random
In my opinion, these random tempbans and warnings for spam are greatly exagerrated.
I've seen a lot of people who geniunely, actually spam, and go unaffected... like
[1 Zone] Spammer: WTS bla bla bla 5000 crowns
[1 Zone] Spammer: WTS bla bla bla 5000 crowns
[1 Zone] Spammer: WTS bla bla bla 5000 crowns
[1 Zone] Spammer: WTS bla bla bla 5000 crowns
[1 Zone] Spammer: WTS bla bla bla 5000 crowns
Non-spammer: message
[1 Zone] Spammer: WTS bla bla bla 5000 crowns
[1 Zone] Spammer: WTS bla bla bla 5000 crowns
Non-spammer2: reply
[1 Zone] Spammer: WTS bla bla bla 5000 crowns
[1 Zone] Spammer: WTS bla bla bla 5000 crowns
In my opinion THIS should be penalized... probably with a mute rather than a ban too.
However, I've also fallen victim to warnings about "spamming" for posting a trade message once every 1 minute (or whatever the timeout is) before, in trade and haven, and I was recently 1-day-banned for "evading the chat filter"... I'm obviously not going to quote myself, but let's say that when I told my guildmates what it was for, all of them laughed at how ridiculous it was. I didn't really mean to avoid the chat filter, but I guess a GM didn't see it that way.
Either way, I've toned my trade "spam" considerably (perhaps every 2 minutes or even longer between messages), and most of the time I don't even advertise in haven. I'm also avoiding any haven chat whatsover - it's not worth the risk for me to be banned for genuinely being absentminded or misspelling something or heaven forbid misspelling a swear word (which is what I did to get 1-day-suspended).
Even so, I'm more or less expecting to be banned-sooner or later. I now have a history and I'm sure someone will pull the trigger on me, sooner or later, for some insignificant (in my opinion) reason. I'm just waiting for it to happen. I guess you could say I'm paranoid. I've never lived in a faschist system before, and I've hardly lived in a communist one (I was young when it fell), but this is what it must feel like to be constantly watched by "big brother"/the party/whatever.
I'm not blowing this out of proportion or being dramatic - this is really what I feel like. And it's not a pleasant feeling at all. If something like that happens again, I might just pack up my account and trade it for TF2 items and just start playing that, or another game altogether. I try to play this game and participate in this community for fun, and when things like this happen it ruins my fun considerably. This is not a threat either - it's a logical consequence.
TL;DR - I don't like my every move being watched and I'm sure nobody else does either. I also think the game has ample built-in security measures (a filter/trade chat timeout)... perhaps there should be a timeout for zone messages too? I'm not big on human administrative action with its subjectivities.
If stating my opinion here gets me "in trouble," so be it. A forum that represses reasonable personal expression is no forum at all.
Mié, 01/04/2012 - 22:12
#26
Players who produce garden
Players who produce garden variety chat spam do not get permanently banned on the first offense.
This is what I'm worried about, and I'm sure others are too. I'm going to assume the first offense is the warning. How many warnings before it's a ban? I don't know. I've read other forum threads where people seemed to have been banned permanently for silly/similar reasons, maybe there were other factors in play, but I'd rather not take that chance.
Heatsurge, I've seen people avoid swear filters, spam uncontrollably, harass other players using derogatory terms, but they aren't banned or removed immediately. That makes me feel that GMs are not moderating the game in real time, at least not heavily, but instead focus more on user complaints. If a GM witnesses you doing something wrong, why would they wait an hour, a day, before remedying the situation? I don't want to delve too much into what GMs are/are not doing as I don't have that knowledge. I'm not trying to bash them either, as I've had very few problems in game which leads me to believe they are doing a great job as it is.
I also don't like the feeling of paranoia, but to maintain rules and order of the game, I can expect to give up a certain amount of freedom to speaking freely. However, I do feel more comfortable using tells or guild chat in that case as it's more private in a sense, and would expect the receiving parties, who are considered friends, to not be offended.
Mié, 01/04/2012 - 22:40
#27
Fairly obviously Mewmewmewmew
Fairly obviously Mewmewmewmew is just another alt of Asukalanforum.
Mié, 01/04/2012 - 23:04
#28
Woofs, Asukalanforum was
Woofs, Asukalanforum was banned. I've only received a warning. His issues and mine are completely different. Besides, what would it matter who I am?
Good job contributing absolutely nothing.
Jue, 01/05/2012 - 07:07
#29
It matters who you are
It matters who you are always, its sad but its true. People liked, well know, or funny (even if they are idiots) can do almost everything and wont get reported. People not know, get reported ASAP just with first mistake.
And mostly (even in real life) people even if have the ability to read, they sometimes not posses the ability to understeand what they read, its even more visible in internet :F
We cant do anything about it, my dear alt Mewmewmewmew* :P
------------------------------------------------
*Mewmewmewmew is not really my alt, i just wrote it for my lulz, just mentioning it if someone would really take it serious Oo
Jue, 01/05/2012 - 11:14
#30
Copy/Paste trade spammers are
Copy/Paste trade spammers are put on my ignore list very quickly.
Not what they probably wanted, but if you want to sell stuff - sell it reasonable. And don't bug the other players every few seconds.
The rule is as easy as that.
Nobody needs the same offer more than once a minute, and even that is still a lot (too lot).
Jue, 01/05/2012 - 12:17
#31
Every person posting to the
Every person posting to the Trade channel is copy/pasting. If you're typing your message out every time, only to have it show up ~3 seconds during peak hours, you're probably doing something wrong. Are you expecting players to post their wares every 10-15 minutes? Or even 5? Maybe the Trade channel isn't what you're looking for. Perhaps the trade forums?
Jue, 01/05/2012 - 16:31
#32
Quick idea.
When someone is
Quick idea.
When someone is muted from the chat (Zone or otherwise) they should get a message warning them to ease up with some of the solutions to ACTUALLY SELLLING listed above.
Keep them muted for 30 minutes too, they wasted 3000 Copy/pastes and didnt sell anyway.
:D Get ready to be crushed