now that Brandish line got a great upgrade. Please tell us which line do you prefer
Elemental 5* brandish vs DA
Shadow 5* acheron vs GF
how do they work in clockworks, boss runs, and lockdown (with or without UVs).
what I know from the update is that
5* brandish got 5 explodes
4* got 3/4 explodes :D
I myself don't have any brandishes to experience.. so please do tell! :)
In my opinion, after testing out the Voltedge with the update, it's a huge damage output improvement. For general use, I'd suggest brandishes simply because of the status spam and lack of decreased speed when charge spamming. DA is still better for FSC and Arenas IMO because of the larger spread damage of the "holoblades" (stealing Metagenic's words since idk what to call them :3) which takes care of those large groups of tightly clustered enemies quickly. If you're looking for either a brandish OR a DA for all-purpose use, I'd suggest the DA in the end since it helps with those giant mobs of enemies.
Acheron>GF as always, and as Metagenic said, this is just icing on the cake.
The normal attacks were not changed, so i still prefer my DA and GF to brandish lines. In my opinion, Acheron is not better than GF. At all.
But i have another point : yeah, this new charge looks cool, but it's rather annoying for your teamates. Before, brandish charge didn't have much knockback, so even with those players always charging their sword, it was cool. But now, they charge even more and push mobs all over the place. It's still not as bad as a Leviathan user, but as a bomber, I find it rather annoying. (If you ask, outside of FSC, DA users generally don't charge that much, and in FSC, that's what you expect so it's ok)
P.S. : if someone did the maths for the dps of brandish series using charge vs using normal attacks, I would love to see it. My point is that the charge reduce your dps output, and that for normal attacks, sealed sword > brandish because of their wide swing, as long as there are at least 2/3 mobs you hit.
I directly compare these weapons in my sword guide. I do not anticipate changing my advice based on yesterday's update. DA is still good for the crowds in FSC, and I already preferred Acheron over Gran Faust.
I've been using the avenger and faust as my main two weapons in jelly runs. Some other threads have already show that with single target, heavy swords lose out in dps. But with me, its not all about damage. I enjoy the defensive aspects of the heavy swords, simply because pushing them all away from me makes me shiver in delight :D
The brandishs i've seen yesterday have been extremely powerful. You can pseudo snipe with the charge, even if its not the best option. The knockbacks by the explosions wasnt a problem for me.
The update has made (IMHO) my Voltedge charge as good or better than DAs at FSC crowd control.
Really this comes down to the same thing as before. Personal preference for either a 2 swing sword or a 3 swing sword. DPS wise putting DMG buffs with 3 swingers and ASI buffs with 2 swingers makes the most sense. However, I have really fallen in love with Max ASI on 3 swing swords. It kinda turns me into a blinder and it makes shielding crazy fast so seldom get hit. Though a skilled 2 swing sword user can use the knockback to keep enemies away and not get hit even without ASI. It is just taste & what fits your play-style.
Brandish charges have a ton better range now, but for max destruction you still should be up close. Now I want CTR on my Acheron, my Voltedge is UV CTR Med + Med for heat + Med for Trinket = Max & I really love it.
To clarify my point, and respond to Demonicsothe's:
The heavy swords are especially good against slow crowds, because they have wide, long swings that can hit multiple monsters and knock them away from you. FSC, graveyards, and RJP are examples of places filled with slow crowds. Therefore, I often prefer GF over Acheron in RJP.
But most areas of the Clockworks are not filled with slow crowds. I prefer Acheron over GF in general, and yesterday's update only strengthens that preference.
@Bopp since we are at it, I have some specific questions for you :
- what is your thought about Acheron vs piercing sword to deal with Gremlins ? Even tho piercing sword will obviously do normal damage, i still prefer them for their attack pattern.
- generally, do you spam your charge attack (as I see most brandish users do) or do you use a lot normal attacks ? Or both according the situation ?
to further Acheron vs pierce for gremlin, would you keep a Brandish UV Gremlin High or sell it and pick up a different UV (like CTR Med) instead. I currently use my BTB for gremlins and the only time gremlins give me problems is when they are in huge swarms. I want a shadow sword to make the RJP a bit faster (already easy enough).
@Fradow
I love my Acheron for Gremlins & pre-update I always paired it with Max ASI and used the normal attacks, sometimes shield canceling the combo after the second swing to avoid attacks. This works great for Thwackers, Menders, and Scorchers. Problem was the Gremlin bombers can be a pain and prompted me to carry my Valiance for taking them out form a distance if my health got too low and to considered crafting an Umbra Driver.
I played a couple Gremlin arenas last night and found myself charge spamming with my Acheron instead to great effect. The range is great for hitting demos without standing in their bomb radius.
*edit* @ Nordlead: I would value CTR in a brandish even more post update. My Acheron has UV Construct Med which has made it one of my favorite arena tools, but I find myself using the charge more now and really miss the UV CTR Med my Voltedge has. I mist-crafted for my brandishes. I think buying a CTR Med brandish will be pretty expensive.
seeing as how i run primarily jk for crowns, i dont see wolvers often. Against what i really should do, i use the faust on alpha wolvers XD
With the new wolver nerf, its easier to deal with. Not that i agreed with taking out their autotarget.
Bopp, i agree on acherons more usefulness in general clockworks. I just feel like that gremlins arent enough of a threat to warrant getting a nightblade line. Maybe thatll change when i get into t3
Fradow: I know that you dislike the Brandishes --- it's the one point on which we disagree. :)
I agree that BTB/FF is really surprisingly good against gremlins (and undead). Really, it's almost as good as GF, and in some ways it's better (faster, safer charge). So I can see using BTB/FF against gremlins instead of GF. But Acheron's DPS is so high (see here) that I really prefer it over GF/BTB/FF for gremlins.
Unless the room is really tight, I do charge the Acheron a lot. Stratum 6 deconstruction zones are easily clearable with no damage to me (although I guess that's not really saying much).
Nordlead: An Acheron with gremlin High is a nice sword, no doubt about it. But all of the Brandishes have nice charges (especially since yesterday), so CTR is pretty awesome on them. Unless the room is really tight, a sword charge attack is more like a ranged attack than a melee attack, because the only time you're near the monsters is when you're unleashing the charge. (Disclaimer: My armor and my trinkets give me Very High speed and damage bonuses, so CTR is always my priority for sword UVs, except on Gran Faust.) If you really want to speed up jelly runs, may I recommend Ash of Agni?
Bluescreenofdeath: I agree.
Demonicsothe, gremlins are much harder in Tier 3, especially since the menders gain the ability to resurrect. In any event, gremlins are harder than slimes, aren't they? For me, this seals the deal: Acheron is better. But knowledgeable people such as Fradow can disagree.
Bopp, would a AoA really speed up a run through RJP? Would that be dropping several flaming circles before standing on a party pad and switching back to another weapon, or using it to sustain the fire?
Edit for bopp: Menders revive themselves, or other gremlins? Either way, i didnt know that. I guess ill hold off upgrading to a GF, and start working on an acheron after i finish my ash coat.
Demonicsothe, in Tier 3 gremlin menders can revive other gremlins, including other gremlin menders. If you're in an arena with two of them, you want to kill both of them quickly. My solution is to charge Acheron at them. Charging FF is also pretty awesome. I once killed two menders and three wolvers with a single FF charge. Charging BTB is slightly less awesome.
Ash of Agni speeds up RJP by (A) clearing all of the little jellies and (B) weakening all of the big jellies. One person can spam it throughout the fight. I remember the first time I was in an RJP party with an Ash of Agni spammer. I had already done RJP literally hundreds of times, so I knew how long the fights were supposed to last. When the fights ended much earlier than I expected, I was actually confused.
menders revive any other gremlins. Killing menders first should be the #1 priority (besides staying alive). Imagine fighting a giant hoard of gremlins and no matter what you do the monster count stays the same. First time I fought them I had that problem until I managed to kill the menders.
The other thing about menders is that if you don't kill them extremely fast, then they put up this force shield and by the time you break it you'll be surrounded by other gremlins which will take you out quickly.
I would consider the AoA, but I already have the 4* freeze and shock bombs and I really don't want to invest in a 3rd quite yet. Shock takes out all of the mini jellies at the JK in a single hit (prior levels take a few hits). My JK scheme is to now spam shock bombs, and throw curse vials. If no one else is participating I'll pull out my blazebrand and set the JK on fire then go back to shock. Mostly I let the JK kill himself. I was thinking that a shadow sword would really speed up how fast I can kill individual jellies and would also be useful for other parts of the clockworks when I don't have my BTB.
Well I used to use mainly Heavy Swords and then this update came out and I had one Brandish 5 Star line so I stopped using all 3 of my heavy swords. I just don't see the point in using the other Heavy swords when the Brandish line charges in half the time, pretty much does the same damage now, causes status effects, and now is faster speed then the sword bullets of a DA. And I'm gonna pack my Fausts in, yes plural cause I made more then one and then I'll go get an Acheron cause until some other update comes out my DA, GF/F, and Triglav are all useless.
No, just because they upgraded Brandish charge doesn't make DA/GF useless. The normal attack is still way different (that point is personal preference), DA charge still do way more damage in FSC (and, really, in most situations where the crowd is big enough), and GF is still the only weapon in the game able to curse. Slow swords users may become rarer, but as one of those, I'm not going to switch to brandish line (but i'll probably give it several more trys).
@Demonicsothe I do use both VT and AoA during RJP runs, and they really speed up runs (my other weapons are DA and GF, you can replace by Brandish versions). People too often vastly underestimate VT damage output in RJP, but it's actually often higher than AoA due to shock aoe and the mass of jellies. You can combine both to have always both status on mobs and thus having way higher damage.
@Bopp & Bluescreen thanks for the input, as I said, i'll probably give it some more try. I don't think it will change my opinion, but who know.
I agree that the Brandish update does not make DA useless. It is still awesome in FSC: very safe and very high damage output against crowds of monsters.
I've never considered VT as a damage bomb over AoA. Thanks, Fradow; I'll think about it.
Since you seem interested on VT, even tho it's a bit off-topic, I'm going to talk a little about it.
As you know, shock is ticks, contrary to fire, are AoE. Everyone who used a shock weapon know that. It may seem to be low at first, about 14 damage in strata 4 (which I am going to take as a reference, numbers from wiki), but ... it's AoE. Now, if you have 3 jellies close to each other (hint : there are often much more), it's going to be 14 * 3 = 42 damage per tick. To compare, a fire tick from Ash of Agni does 40 damage per tick. And it's not even close when there are more jellies, VT scales up like crazy.
It will also do the exact same damage to all jellies. Which means they are all going to die at the same time. Which also means there will be less overkill, and less time running to kill THAT last jelly.
On contrary, as a damage bomb, it doesn't work that well on big targets or spread targets, because they will not do aoe (read lumbers and turrets). Also, it's not a finishing bomb, as the last mobs remaining will take very little from shock.
The ideal use case is : run in, put fire to take all the agro, then once they are packed enough, put shock, run out. You'll probably need another fire bomb and that's it for every jellies (except the really big spikey ones, which have much more health). Most of the time, I do that and let teamates finish the job while I proceed to the next area (whenever possible).
Note that it also works wonder for the last part of an arena and for FSC. In FSC, shock does not hinder shiver as much as you may think on zombies (but you'll probably still prefer a DA or Brandish charge there, there are still not enough zombies in most cases to justify shock over those).
I apologize in advance for further running off-topic.
@ Bopp that weapon table you linked is awesome! Only thing is I believe that subtle differences in speed may be masked at normal speed (when measuring CPM). When I equip a Levi, Voltedge, and Acheron all at the same time and run no ASI all three seem to have almost the same attack speed. However, when I ramp my ASI up to Max my Acheron seems very obviously faster then my Voltedge and Levi. I believe there is a slight speed increase in the Shadow line that is more apparent when multiplied by ASI. I'm going to have to run into the ATH tonight and do some counting. That kind of test is really not my thing though (ADD?) so I would be curious to see if anybody sees higher combos/min in the Archeron than the other brandishes when ASI is maxed.
Fradow, thanks again. VT isn't in my immediate plans, but I'll probably get it eventually.
Bluescreenofdeath, that damage table is done entirely with ASI Medium. I agree that it would be nice to verify whether ASI affects all swords equally. The only detailed testing I know of is for DVS, at Talk:Dread Venom Striker.
Oh ok so damage makes it balanced with Heavy swords, kay I'll get a Attack Damage trinket or something, oh Gran Faust curses, yeah that's cool Rock Salt bomb is like the only bomb meant in game for slimes, must be good it's unique. Shadowsun set is great it gives gun damage don't mind all the weaknesses, it's a great armor and everyone uses it.
I have a Divine Avenger, yeah it's good at FSC cause that's all people think about and 3 Rings gets mad at people for saying it's the final boss stage(until I or anyone else sees one it is) it's high damage, yeah and slow charge compared to brandish lines, and it's elemental so are most the brandishes, also I move much slower while charging, oh and I can't inflict status but yeah it's high damage so it's still best weapon ever. Oh but it's 3 sword bullets with push back, don't care I have 5 explosions that either freeze, shock or burn. I'm sorry by useless I mean it's why should I truly use this besides to say I'm not those guys when I can use the much better thing? I'm sorry in comparison, Divine Avenger, mind you the only good heavy sword compared to the others including the Faust is good but the new brandish is better.
Mind you this is coming form a person who's now so disgusted with this games swords he's moving to guns.
Grenze, your argument is hard to follow and not convincing. It appears to be a lot of misdirected sarcasm and straw-man arguments. For example, we haven't been talking only about FSC. For another example, I have recommended Brandishes over DA/FoV/GF in this forum for months, including in this very thread. So maybe you could tone it down a little.
still prefer my DA / FF / FoV / GF over brandish line even with the buff
DA: vh ASI + h CTR
FF: vh ASI
FoV: vh CTR + low ASI
GF: vh ASI
had these brandish swords > Acheron: vh CTR | Combuster: vh CTR
even buffed the brandish is not a preferred item for me since i have issues on the three swing attack, only two land
for a charge attack its great but not so for normal attack ... DA / FoV beats the Combuster and FF / GF beats the Acheron for me
DA / FF / GF = main weapons in any run bar > JK / FSC & Tier3 fiend floors
DA ... great as a standard weapon for me...
FF ... great for Alpha Wolvers / Fiends / Medic guys + trojans :P
GF ... great for Gremlins / Jellies / Wolvers
once i traded 70k CE for my DA as a SS my Combuster was obsolete as DA has Max ASI / DAMAGE + Ultra CTR on my setup
GF has MAX ASI / DAMAGE + med CTR on my setup also making the Acheron obsolete for me to be honest
would craft a volt edge if someone sells me a brandish: VH ASI (or atleast HIGH) + VH CTR
DA is slightly better than elemental Brandishes, due to range and damage advantage - you're supposed to be handling Undead and Constructs with elemental damage, so the high damage output + shield canceling + 3 holoblades work quite well. I do insist that it's only a slight advantage though - those Brandish explosions are deadly in their own right.
Acheron was always better than GF, but even more so now thanks to the insane AOE explosions. The GF's charge shoots only one holoblade, and has the added risk of cursing the player. You're supposed to be using shadow damage against Slimes and Gremlins, and the Acheron fits PERFECTLY. It's swift, powerful, and even looks Japanese.