Spiral Knights - PvP revamped: How to make Lockdown perfectly balanced

PvP revamped: How to make Lockdown perfectly balanced

68 replies [Last post]

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 13:31

#51

Neodasus

@Chris Giving recons

@Chris

Giving recons increased cap rates isn't a bad idea actually. It certainly would help a team swing for a win late in the game.

As for guardians, I don't really think they need an asi decrease. The asi needs to go, no doubt about it, but in its place they get a low damage increase or no buffs at all aside from health.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 13:36

#52

Chris

If they keep their health

If they keep their health they need asi reduction medium or damage reduction medium, theyre just way to strong for a defensive class that has 40 bars of health. Good guardians can literally kill anybody without even using their shield just because of their gross health + asi + no damage reduction.

Recons with increase cap rate and even greater increased stealth cap rate would make games much more strategic and make spawn camping much less viable. It would create a much more strategy rather than spammy meta-game.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 14:09

#53

Clueless-Inferno

Use the weaknesses of

Use the weaknesses of guardians to your advantage.
They are very slow, and can't chase down anybody. This means if you have a gun that isn't Magnus or autogun line, you have a free kill waiting. Storm driver would be best.
-Shoot until shield breaks
- shock them
-skate it and kill

Currently I have a Magnus, and it is only decent against guardian shields. Honestly, though, guardians are not too too OP.
I once took down a guardian who had two tri-hearts, swift flourish, and Dusker (your average LD player). Magnus-> troika + skate technique. Since no body believes me, I'll try to get a vid of it up. Troika ftw!!!

Recon plain sucks. I think Covertness (T2 player) would agree with me when I say once your shield is broken, you are screwed.

Striker- Weakness is short boost duration. Other then that, striker is fine. (I play striker with a troika in T2 LD, and it works out fine)

Basically, Striker is the best class, with guardian as a close second, and recon being dead last. However, this can be outright contradicted by player skill.

Fixes:
Recon: Give it a 1 hit survivability rate. Recons with broken shields are as good as dead.
Guardian: Give it an ASI decrease on everything, but keep the health.
Striker: Fine as is.

Best solution for LD: GET RID OF AUTO TARGET

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 14:12

#54

Chris

I've played over 4,000 games

I've played over 4,000 games of lockdown and have completely mastered all three classes.
I understand how to kill guardians, and usually poop on them all day.
The good ones will always beat strikers with ease though.

Guardians can shoot you back, for the same amount of damage, and have more health.

Guardian is by far the best class for a 1v1, as well as the most useful to a team.
However, 99% of the top players decide to play strikers because of a MUCH higher skill cap, and they are more aggressive and more fun (to most).

Recon isn't even a viable choice, some VERY team coordinated strategies call for ONE recon at most.

Auto target removed from lockdown would call for it removed from the game as a whole.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 14:12

#55

Clueless-Inferno

^ Erm....how many coins do

^ Erm....how many coins do you have?

If guardians have a gun, use sword. If they have a sword, use a gun. And if they have a bomb, use a gun. Best counter IMO.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 14:15

#56

Chris

They can switch weapons just

They can switch weapons just as fast as you and will always beat you if you are both using the same weapon. Striker vs guardian.

I'm not even going to go into the OP'ed-ness of guardians invulnerability whilst standing in status bombs due to the hit delay timer.

1500 coins is the most I've had at once.

Also, recons with broken shields are slightly better than strikers with broken shields as they have more health. I have no problem killing people on either class without my class ability up, which is why guardians are too strong.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 14:18

#57

Chris

I know where you are coming

I know where you are coming from, I felt the same way before I got as experienced as I am now.

I've done so much modifying to what I THINK would completely balance lockdown and my final conclusion that I'm positive will not change is:

Recon gets bonus cap rate (either ONLY while stealthed or greater while stealthed)
Guardian gets asi decrease

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 14:27

#58

Clueless-Inferno

1500.......impressive

Ah, I see. I do recall seeing a guardian do a quick shield cancel with a flourish while in a shock bomb.
It seems that T3 guardians are much better then T2. T2, they are too slow and rely only on their flourish, and they rarely if ever use guns. They wait for you to get close, then un-shield and try to chase you down. The majority of competent players in T2 are strikers, with the few excellent non-strikers (pieispie guardian) do good as well. I hope to meet you sometime in T2 LD Chris. It'd be interesting to face you.

Lastly, how come the Devs would not be able to remove AT in LD, but not PvE?

Edit: I agree, increasing recon cap rate would be best. Now that I think of it, they were intended to be a support class, not offensive of defensive specifically.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 14:41

#59

Neodasus

Guardians still have the

Guardians still have the ability to shield-cancel even when their shield has no defensive power, just so everyone understands where Chris is coming from.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 18:15

#60

Nicoya-Kitty

I think ASD on Guardian would

I think ASD on Guardian would murder the class in T1, though, due to zerg-rushing. In T1 there's basically no fast-hit weapons like there is in T2 and T3 (Comparing the Heavy Hatchet to the GF for example, the GF hits much earlier in its swing animation than the HH does, and there's obviously no equivalent to the snarby/flourish). Due to the guardian's slow walk speed while shielding, it's very easy to end up boxed in and permanently interrupted.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 18:46

#61

Orangeo

"Recon gets bonus cap

"This is why we need permanent rankings based on a win/loss ratio (match-ups basked on rankings), and a comprehensive LD tutorial to solve this problem."
I saw a thread long ago about the first part of that. It basicaly said the teams should be balanced by rank, and then the game would determine who is slightly more likely to win. If the underdog wins, they get allot of points, and if the expected-to-win team wins, they only get a few. Then vice-versa for losing points, i.e. pros losing to noobs would lose a bunch of rank, and noobs losing pros would only lose a little.

"Recon gets bonus cap rate."
How about making the death mark prevent players from capping? Also, the range of the recon-feild should be increased. Not by far, but by some. I should be able to reach across the majority of the capture point while standing on the edge.

"Guardians should bet ASI decrease."
How about just make the sheild slower? The sheild canceling is the only part I've had trouble with, normal attacking speed dosen't seem to affect me.

On a side note, strikers should have some kind of gun-bonus. Dashing backwards and shooting recons is quite easy, and great for keeping them from planting bombs. I don't really feel that striker needs sword ASI and damage medium. Prehaps low of one, then low gun ASI? Speculation? I don't play allot of lockdown.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 18:57

#62

Spamisalreadyinuse

i heard that they did remove

i heard that they did remove AT in testing server. but a bunch of noobs cried and it was re added.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 19:10

#63

Clueless-Inferno

Strides don't need any more

Strikers don't need any more bonuses.

Having the death mark prevent point capture would be interesting.

And ASD in guardian is a must. Anyone who has faced a guardian with a flourish knows it is extremely difficult to fight them. Slower shielding is not a good solution at all, since you have to be able to shield instantly. It would also make it worse for players with lag.

Edit: ^ Really? They change it because of complaining noobs? Well, if they changed it because the majority of the community AT THAT TIME supported auto target, then they should disable it now since the majority clearly wants it gone. If OOO wants more money, then they should cater towards the customer. Provide what the customer wants, not what the customer doesn't want.

Say there is a restaurant that serves beef soup. At that time, everyone hated it, and demanded chicken noodle soup instead. So, the restaurant replaced the beef soup with chicken noodle. 6 Months later, people start demanding beef soup again. The restaurant, for whatever reason, decides to ignore them and keep the chicken noodle soup. Eventually, less people eat there, but there are some who still like the chicken noodle soup. The majority, however, prefers the beef soup.

Now replace "beef soup" with auto target disabled, "chicken noodle soup" with autotarget enabled, the restaurant with Lockdown, and the customers with the playerbase.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 13:15

#64

Orangeo

"Having the death mark

"Having the death mark prevent point capture would be interesting."
It serves a simmilar purpose as what Chris said, but you wouldn't have to add "captue speed increase; medium" or anything to the stats, and instead couple the lockdown-only bonus/penalty with the lockdown-only status.

"If OOO wants more money, then they should cater towards the customer."
Yes, but all of the players on the testing server were customers, and anyone here could be F2P. Not that I agree with that way of thinking, but there is a clear though process there.

"Slower shielding is not a good solution at all, since you have to be able to shield instantly. It would also make it worse for players with lag."
What? That's my point, guardians shouldn't sheild so instantly. Adding a delay would keep people from sheild-canceling strikers. This kind of helps lagging players, since everyone gets the delay, not just them.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 23:26

#65

Diamondshreddie

I LOVE IT

i for one am a crude , pure bomber lockdwon players, always being hunted down b each and every striker there is, without beig able to charge up a single bomb! well... tha could be due to the fact that i only have 2 good bombs so far (nitro and shiver) and those seeem to be rather ineffective in lockdown... i personally like the sound of your RPS theory for lockdown... because yes, i want to play lockdown without going into a state of depression and being broke :P either that or i just need some better gear and tips.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 13:06

#66

Neodasus

You shouldn't be bombing solo

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 13:15

#67

Orangeo

True that Neo! On the other

True that Neo! On the other hand, it's difficult to keep up with striker-noobs that just use their fuel for transportation as opposed to combat. For average players, not pros, guardians and recons should to have strikers near them.

Also, the sivermist dosen't suck in matches without pure sklovers. Granted that's not as common as it should be, just freezing someone, adding on a death mark, and stabbing them in the back is generaly an effective way for killing off enemy strays.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 18:28

#68

Nicoya-Kitty

@Neodasus I find that once

@Neodasus I find that once people notice who I am, I get completely striker-mobbed any time I come anywhere close to a battle, no matter how many teammates I have around me.

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PvP revamped: How to make Lockdown perfectly balanced