Spiral Knights - Handgun Attack Speed

Handgun Attack Speed

6 replies [Last post]

Mon, 01/09/2012 - 20:10

The-Rawrcake

Under the gunslinger thread, at the very bottom under "Handgun Attack Speed" it says that ASI does not affect reloading speed.

ASI will noticably affect the reloading speed on guns, most noticable using a 0 ASI blitz charge as opposed to a Maximum ASI blitz charge.

Same works for normal attacks with say, an alchemer. This might make gunners think that reloading and shooting off the second / third / sixth bullet is bad because of this when this isn't a determining factor.

Once in a blue moon it is good to fire off the last of the bullets for burst damage (killing the mender quickly before it bubbles when you know how many bullets will kill it)

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 15:35

Trying

From what I have heard ASI

From what I have heard ASI doesnt affect the reload animation it just makes the gun move up and down faster which is part of what must be done when you reload.

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 14:44

Antistone

I would really like to know

I would really like to know how anyone thinks they've determined this definitively one way or the other. ASI is a very small change, and reloads aren't that long.

I recall one thread where someone posted a video of charge attacks with their blitz needle, and based on the timestamps it appeared that adding a Swiftstrike Buckler (ASI high) reduced the total time to perform a charged attack (including reload) by perhaps 0.2 seconds--we couldn't get very accurate because the timecodes only displayed the nearest second, and of course this assumes that variation in the timing of button presses to begin and release the charge attack weren't a factor.

If we assume that the actual attack animation was sped up at least as much as the reload (which seems only logical), that means that the difference in reload speed (if any) would have to be on the order of a twentieth of a second.

You can't tell that difference by eyeballing it. Maybe you think you can, but you can't. (And that's before even considering lag.)

So you don't "know" one way or the other whether ASI affects reload times merely because you play a gunner and you're observant. You just don't. You'd probably have to do a high-quality video capture and step through it one frame at a time, because we're talking about a difference of only a few frames (depending on your framerate).

So please, tell me: what is your actual evidence one way or the other?

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 16:11

The-Rawrcake

I have no hard evidence, it

I have no hard evidence, it is just way too obvious.

1. Stun lowers ASI. When you blitz charge while stunned on vana / finish it after being stunned, you are literally stuck for a long time.

If ASI didn't affect reload speed, you wouldn't be stuck at all.

2. It is obvious just looking at it. If you have a blitz needle, go test it in the ATH and look at the reload speeds on the charge attack.

I'll do this and report what I see - if it is way too obvious as I have seen it, I do not need to make a video.

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 17:09

Antistone

Yeah, sure

Yeah, sure. The last thread also involved someone claiming that it was incredibly obvious, with at least a second saved from the reload time. Then we got a video posted, which showed that even the TOTAL time saved wasn't anywhere close to that. (In fact, I'm pretty sure that the "slow" reload already took less than a second, so reducing the time by a second wasn't even possible.) Personally, I couldn't notice ANY difference in speed without looking at the time codes, let alone tell where the speedup occurred.

It doesn't matter whether it is "way too obvious" to you. Your perception is greatly influenced by your expectation, and even experts in a field routinely get numbers wildly wrong unless they base them on precise data. Furthermore, even if you are somehow magically immune to bias and perfectly accurate at all times, the people arguing against you won't be; ridicule will not suffice to convert everyone to your position.

We already have ample evidence that this is a split-second difference at most, and the majority of players don't have the gear to replicate your tests anyway, so if you intend to honestly convince anyone, you should provide something a little more persuasive than your say-so, even if YOU think it's "obvious".

Also, stun pretty clearly does something more than just change your attack speed, so it is entirely plausible that stun could affect your reload speed even if ASI does not.

Now, I'm not saying that you're wrong about ASI affecting reloads. I don't know whether it does or not. But it is most definitely not OBVIOUS that it does, at least to me.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 09:40

Kalaina-Elderfall

ASI definitely affects reload

ASI definitely affects reload time. I have Ancient Plate, so I get to test Maximum! increase vs Medium decrease, and from counting out some times (not entirely accurate, sure, but it's a big difference) there IS a difference.

Whether or not this difference is "arm time" or "animation time" or "post reload-wait time" or whatever is hard to say, but it's there and I'm not sure it really matters what it is exactly. The connotation of "all reload speeds are the same" is that reloading is really slow if you have good ASI, but if a huge portion of the reload is ASI-dependent arm time... well, it's misleading to say reloading speeds are the same.

I can measure to roughly a sixth of a second verbally (whether or not I can hit a precise second is irrelevant as long as I count at the same speed every time). I counted these several times each.

Umbra Driver times:

Second bullet of first clip to first bullet of second clip time

Medium down: 6/6s
Maximum! up: 4/6s

First bullet of first clip to first bullet of second clip time

Medium down: 8/6s
Maximum! up: 5/6s

So bullet time is about 1/6s difference, which is more than the difference between reload times.

Blitz Needle times:

Last needle of clip to time in which next charge begins (holding mouse)

Medium down: 3-4/6s, seems closer to 4
Maximum! up: 2-3/6s, seems closer to 2

Note: with Medium down, there's a significant wait time after the Blitz reload animation where my character just stands still with the gun held up. With Maximum! up it is much shorter to the point of not being noticeable.

Polaris times:

Last bullet of first clip to first bullet of second clip time

Medium down: 4/6s
Maximum! up: 2/6s

Callahan times:

Explosion of second bullet of first clip to first bullet of second clip fire time

Medium down: 4/6s
Maximum! up: 2/6s

Also, ASI appears to have no effect on bullet speed.

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 16:38

The-Rawrcake

"Whether or not this

"Whether or not this difference is "arm time" or "animation time" or "post reload-wait time" or whatever is hard to say, but it's there and I'm not sure it really matters what it is exactly. The connotation of "all reload speeds are the same" is that reloading is really slow if you have good ASI, but if a huge portion of the reload is ASI-dependent arm time... well, it's misleading to say reloading speeds are the same."

Kalaina explains it perfectly. If NEITHER of us know, don't mention ANYTHING about it.

"2. It is obvious just looking at it. If you have a blitz needle, go test it in the ATH and look at the reload speeds on the charge attack.

I'll do this and report what I see - if it is way too obvious as I have seen it, I do not need to make a video."

This is what I said to do and is what Kal did.

What did you do Antistone? Yell at me and say how things need to be "precise data".

Want to know what the gunslinger guide truly is? Inaccurate and a waste of energy. It has been looked over by multiple true gunners and all were extremely disappointed. Maybe talk about ASI vs. Damage increase in the guide? Maybe explain the weaponry better than alchemers and alchemers only? Perhaps truly explain the alchemers in the alchemers and alchemers only weaponry? So don't even start to talk about precise data on the flippin wiki.

So don't just look at what I myself think is obvious about the little ending of the guide. Take a whiff of the entire piece of crap.

You'll learn that it was thrown up by wolver clones. The wiki is who is really to blame, created by wolver clones. Now what is the difference between a smart geared swordsman and a wolver clone? A wolver clone believes his opinion applies everywhere and a smart geared swordsman keeps his nose out of gunning and bombing.

Show us some respect and take that gunslinger guide down. If not, because I KNOW you will keep that misleading PoS up there, then change this one little thing, k thx.

Oh, and bump. I post this in response to Antistone and the ending still being there. Either change it or completely take it off because THAT isn't "precise data," Antistone.

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Handgun Attack Speed