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New aspect to the game

14 replies [Last post]
Wed, 01/11/2012 - 14:10
Xneol's picture
Xneol

Just read an article about a bomb to summon a mecha knight. I had a similar idea a few days back except I came up with a whole system to balance.

First off, it would be a new set of weapons, wrenches. They would have a longer charge time and would slow (or negate) the ability to move while charging (whichever would feel more balanced). Each wrench would have a weak melee doing damage as though all enemies were resistant to it (damage in the 7-18 range) but upon a full charge would construct something. There would be separate wrenches for building different things and the star rating of each would reflect the strength of whatever is being built. There could be a wrench for a mecha knight and a mecha turret as well as wrenches for the gun puppy series (1 shot and 3 shot separately) or whatever else the dev team sees fit. Each wrenches design could in someway resemble the construct being built

Furthermore in order to make use of them one you would have to swap out your shield for a special item:
1-star "Bag of Bolts": allows the user to build one construct
3-star "Pouch of Parts": allows user to build two constructs
5-star "Tinkerers Toolbox": allows user to build three constructs

These would be overall (i.e. Bag of Bolts allows one construct, not one construct per wrench carried). In the event that a knight tried to build a new construct and go over the limit the oldest construct would be destroyed automatically and replaced by the new one. If at least one of these was not equipped then the wrench would not be able to produce any construct.

All of these items would not actually serve as shields and when attempting to shield would always show a broken shield. However, they would still allow for shield bumping of enemies to prevent anyone choosing to be a Tinkerer from being swarmed and trapped and automatically doomed to die.

Therefore, this concept would become more balanced by both sacrificing a knights ability to inflict damage by themselves as well as sacrificing their defense.

In order to further balance should this still seem too powerful I was playing with the thought of each wrench having a chance to damage self while charging. Unlike being hit by an enemy it would not reset your charge but simply inflict damage. The more stars the wrench has the greater the chance to inflict damage on self would be. In order to negate this a knight would be able to purchase helms specifically aimed towards a Tinkerers needs. These would offer decreased chance to damage self but would offer much worse defense benefits than standard helms. Such helms could resemble safety glasses or a welding mask etc.

Furthermore, the charge time on wrenches could be extremely long making them unreasonable to use frequently. This could be negated by a set of armors that would decrease the charge times significantly. Like the helms, these would offer worse defense bonuses than standard armor but would aid in the act of specifically building constructs.

In this way, in order to actively build constructs effectively, a knight would have to sacrifice his/her ability to defend themselves, putting them at the mercy of his/her constructs and/or party members. This would add an interesting aspect to the game whilst preventing the over-powering of the ability to create such constructs.

I know this idea is not perfect and has been discussed before, however I feel like it was never given proper thought towards balancing. I hope my input at least merits significant discussion by other forum members if not the dev team.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 15:57
#1
Antistone's picture
Antistone
Design 101

Look, just because you have an interesting idea doesn't mean that whatever game you happen to be playing at the time should implement that idea. Good games have focus, and their feature set is limited so they can actually be built in a reasonable amount of time. You don't get better games by just gluing on every good idea you can come up with, you get better games by designing a core set of features that all work together and then cutting off the non-essential bits.

What you have presented is really quite a complicated idea, in terms of programming, balance, art, and AI. And most of it is really completely out of character with the rest of Spiral Knights' gameplay. Those parts that are similar to existing stuff in Spiral Knights (like encouraging players to charge up before stepping on party buttons, or choosing all of their other equipment purely to support one specialized weapon) are more extreme versions of the BAD parts of Spiral Knights.

I'm sure an awesome game can be constructed around the idea of creating machines that fight for you. In fact, I believe many such games already exist. But Spiral Knights is not one of those game, nor should it be.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 16:13
#2
Xneol's picture
Xneol
Jeez bro you need to chill. I

Jeez bro you need to chill. I was just offering a way for an idea that has been expressed before in the community to be implemented in a way that could be balanced as it has been presented before in ways that were clearly over-powered. In no way am I saying this needs to happen. I understand it would be complicated to code. At no point did I say it wouldn't be. As far as balance goes, that's what the whole system I proposed was presented to discuss. In terms of art and AI you are clearly off base as the AI for mecha knights and mecha turrets already exists and could be replicated to targeting and such for other such machines and I only proposed for the ability to create entities which already exist in-game so new art would not be necessary. The idea of forcing a player to choose all their equipment to back such a form of play was simply to discourage everyone from trying to do it as well as make the player choosing to implement it more vulnerable in order to balance. It would add an interesting aspect to party play. I understand that not everyone in the community would be supportive, i just wanted to propose a system that might spark more discussion than simply dismissing the idea at a comment as simple as "It would be overpowered". I respect the fact that you personally would not support the idea. I myself see no problem with the game play as is. That doesn't mean there isn't room to expand and offer new content to draw in a larger fan base or renew interest among the existing fan base and it certainly doesn't mean you need to talk down to me as though I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 16:31
#3
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor
Well

I think I've seen this idea before... people wanted it for pets, or something like that. I'd agree with it, although I'd have to say this-

-No shield part. As great as that is, too much stuff for one item is not good, and shields are too central to the game to be given up like this in PVE.
-The buildings would have to be limited to one per knight out, at the most.
-The constructs that you construct would have to be somewhat hearty, while not incredibly strong.... and you'd want to be able to kill them, as you move along if they're like the gun puppys.
-They shouldn't shock the knight, and shouldn't shield when you shoot.
-Don't 'sacrifice' the knight's attack power.... just make it slightly lower, and have it be normal damage. Make the wrench heal construct as well.

This is my favorite wrench idea so far though. The animation wouldn't be TOO HARD to do, just have the knight hit the ground and then have a construct appear, and the coding wouldn't be too hard either... just swap the aggro out, and make it shoot differently. Oh, and balancing this would be... fun.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 16:40
#4
Xneol's picture
Xneol
The shield thing was just an

The shield thing was just an idea for balancing. They could even be shields with low health, or it could be scrapped all together for a different method of balancing. I agree with the destroying in order to replace. The healing might be viewed as overpowering but I think if something like this was ever open to test on a server the idea should at least be approached to test instead of overlooked. It would definitely take a fair deal of work to balance out. Furthermore, touching on the too much stuff for one item I would like people to keep in mind that this isn't just one item but rather one class of item, therefore just as there are armors that effect damage and charge time for swords, guns and bombs, armors adapted specifically to the wrench type would be on par with the current system if balanced appropriately.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 21:15
#5
Cleverpun's picture
Cleverpun
Sounds a bit too much like

Sounds a bit too much like playing Engie in TF2 tbh. Fun fact; the TF2 team consistently say that the engineer class in tf2 is the hardest one to balance correctly, and his lack of of usuable weapons compared to the other 8 classes is a testament to that.

Balancing it as you suggested (no shield, little to no movement ability while charged, dmg so weak you may as well not have a weapon) would, at least for me, sap any potential fun out of the process.

I'd have to second Antistone and say that it just doesn't fit into SK, but I may be biased since Ive never activated a turret and I hate mecha knights after all the times they've shocked me :P

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 22:53
#6
Xneol's picture
Xneol
Fair enough and they were all

Fair enough and they were all just potential ways. A simpler way to balance might even be just a knight can only make one and it is built inactivated (you still must pay an energy cost, like knights found in dungeons, to start). The energy cost could be payed by any member of a party but because of the energy would deter players from knight/turret spamming in game yet would make it attractive to players who enjoy playing in a large party as party members could take turns paying the energy cost. Different constructs could have different energy cost to balance the higher levels. This would also potentially generate increased CE sales therefore it's a win-win for players and OOO.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 23:09
#7
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor
No energy costs. This would

No energy costs. This would tick off the community, and make OOO look greedy. Instead, make it run off of vials. 3 of a kind = 1 construct of that status anyone?

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 10:56
#8
Xneol's picture
Xneol
Actually that's an

Actually that's an interesting concept. When I first started thinking about it I thought maybe run off of materials but then I thought people would burn through materials too quickly and it would be kind of bogus. But vials deal with the level difference and everything on their own by use of different sized vials. I'm not sure how difficult that would be to code though, but an interesting idea none the less.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 13:22
#9
Stane's picture
Stane
Good Concept

I like the overall idea. Not crazy bout the no shield, and self-inflicting damage parts though. Perhaps if you have something that can be used as a shield still but breaks faster, and still gives an increase to your constructing abilities. I can't imagine trying to do Tier 3 without a shield to bump enemies around with lol.

I agree that the charge time should be slow and that the melee attacks shouldn't be powerful like a sword. It may also be good for the constructs to have time limits, be able to be healed, or be replaced upon the creation of a new construct. It's just that I wouldn't want a construct on the brink of death following me around when I know I'm about to face a huge wave of enemies. I'd rather have a refreshed one.

I think OOO could manage this update with some time. It would help attract new players to the game along with some players that may have quit due to boredom. SK has only been out for about a year now though and it has advanced quite a ways, I wouldn't put it past the guys at OOO to come out with a new class for the game. Just about everyday you see a thread for a mechanic class, pet system, or creating a robot to help you fight. The players want it and OOO will probably come up with something, though it may not be our exact ideas of what it should be.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 13:37
#10
Darkbrady's picture
Darkbrady
Would have to agree that it

Would have to agree that it doesn't at all fit the theme. Why bring someone along to build semi-useful mech.knights when you could just bring someone along who will seriously help you, then activate a mech.knight drop?
Turrets wouldn't be worth it, as by the time they've been built, the room would probably be cleared and you'd need to destroy them and move on.

SK wasn't designed to be a fortification style game (as cleverpun said, it's very similar to Engineer in Tf2, which is about defending), SK was designed as a fast-paced dungeon /crawler/, that would take out the option of setting up stationary defences. The mech.knights will never be able to compete with a player simply..getting a sword of their own and using that.

Any player who does choose that will probably find themselves bored, just sitting there building mechs and watching them get killed while other players have all the fun, and if there's no shields, they'll likely find themselves constantly dead, to boot.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 01:03
#11
Zave
good for Lockdown?

This might be a very interesting way to diversify Lockdown much more, since it IS about defending, and could be a shield ability of it's own.
And in the case of leavers during a game, the computer could easily take over and build turrets at controlled bases to help even out the teams as there is no current way to make up for the loss of a person.

Lockdown solution for the win? :3

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 01:15
#12
Asukalan's picture
Asukalan
No, please?

seriously, please dont tell me its another way to try make sk more tf2 alike....

Oh yes, there it is TF mentioned!

-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1

and besides, why do ppl come up with mechanics ideas and complicated stuff while devs dont put ingame even simple things (like from watermelon soda topic)?

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 01:15
#13
Darkbrady's picture
Darkbrady
Why should one class get an

Why should one class get an auto-CPU control when they leave, and not the rest?

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 01:15
#14
Darkbrady's picture
Darkbrady
Why should one class get an

Why should one class get an auto-CPU control when they leave, and not the rest?

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