This is a very common sentiment. But you need to think more about the ramifications. What would weakening these swords do to Clockworks play, for example?

On the bright side, you know your solution: Craft some Skolver armor. Think of the poor bombers out there. There is NO bomber armor that protects against piercing.

Nicoya-Kitty, you raise a good point. But to exploit your insight, a bomber must have a second set of armor just for PvP. This is more costly and less useful than the original poster's getting some Skolver. (It uses the same precursors as Vog Cub, and will be useful to him in various parts of the Clockworks.) So bombers still have it worse than the original poster, I think.

@Bopp Believe me, I'd be the last one to complain if OOO added more bomber armor. Shadow armor with low CTR and Med damage vs Undead or Fiend? Sign me up. Bombastic boosted to low/low CTR/Damage or no/med CTR/Damage? Sure I'll have it. Piercing set with Med Damage and Shock/Fire resist? I'd craft it in an instant.

But crafting a Mercurial set (not mercurial demo) to bomb in lockdown isn't that bad. It's still useful in PvE bombing even though it doesn't give any bomb buffs.

Using Vog Cub in PVP in general is a mistake, Striker Gives you a medium ASI increase, and a medium damage increase, combine a fast sword or an ASI trink with full skolver and you get a lightning fast max damage sword

That is the reason barbs are popular, puls they are also a Pure Damage type, so they rip right through normal Defense as well

the descriptions on these swords as well as what rapier like swords where used for in history is one on one combat against another human being.

It sounds to me like you are just irritated that your PvE Gear is Unsuited for PvP

But honestly thats kinda how that [stuff] is supposed to work

i have all the 5 star skolver sets, i also have a BTB GF and DA and many other swords, i dont use skovler often at all in PvE, but i dont PvP without it

Make some gear for just PvP, or stay in a lower lock down tier those are your choices

The Flourish and barb line dont need a nerf

Brandish charges are very effective when used correctly. I've used it a ton of times to 1-hit KO skolver strikers who rush right into it. Plus, the new charge's longer range can cause a big elemntal wall for them.
But i very much agree on your view of the pierce swords though (skolver avalanches...meh)

Here is a post from a thread I made in the suggestion forums that got 2 replies:

I think the way that shield canceling currently works with swords is broken, repeatedly being able to use the first strike of a combo or being able to easily avoid the last strike of a combo (which cannot be canceled out of) makes a few swords far too powerful, especially in Lockdown. For example, the flourish/barb line's big first swing and speed are supposed to be balanced by the small hitbox of the second two swings and the powerful sealed line's large swings are supposed to be balanced by only having two, but shield canceling can negate these balancing factors.

My proposal is that if you cancel out of a swing, instead of it resetting the combo back to the first swing the next time you attack, it should use the next swing in the combo, but if enough time passes between the shield cancel and the next swing (maybe a second or so) then you can use the first swing again.

I think this would go far to balance certain weapons in Lockdown and in the Clockworks.

In case I'm not being clear, here is a helpful visual demonstration with a 3 attack combo sword!

HOW IT IS NOW:
Swing 1 -> Shield cancel -> Swing 1 -> Shield cancel -> Swing 1 etc.

MY PROPOSAL
Swing 1 -> Shield cancel -> Swing 2 -> Shield cancel -> Swing 3 (not able to be cancelled)
and
Swing 1 -> Shield cancel -> Short period of time -> Swing 1 -> Shield cancel -> Short period of time -> Swing 1 etc.

Just to point out that anyone in a mad bomber will probably not be using gun/sword to kill, but other bombs. Using VT+sword kills are more likely to be ...well, any guardian/recon since they get the CT bonus. Mad bomber sacrifices way, way too much defence /just/ for the CTR to cheekily spam VT.

You basically just said "Yeah, LD is easy to win as long as we can hold more than half the CPs".
Gee, an entirely new concept? No, that's actually the objective of the game. If it was that easy then....don't even know what to say.

thi8ng? Honestly have no idea what that was meant to be.

Yeah, UVs and heart pendant? That's it? Have you ever actually walked into pvp in a mad bomber set? I do. Everything hurts. A lot. Strikers will kill you in about two swings, and any single status effect except stun will last about 10 seconds, and if it's shock/fire, will probably cut your health in half by the time it's done.
Heart pendants won't help you much at all, purely because the mad bomber set has such low defence, you'll lose those extra hearts fast; you'll also find that you'd much rather use those trinkets for damage/CTR rates...especially if you plan on...using swords? Y'know since, having a mad bomber set will leave you with absolutely no sword/gun bonuses to speak of.

But yes, you can hurl status effects at people fast and hard as a bomber, assuming that you don't get your charges interupted by trollaris spammers or strikers, and that when you've dropped your haze, people walk into it, and strikers dono't zip through it harmlessly. There'll be no tanking lots of anything, sadly. And UVs won't help much becasue..well, great UVs on a mad bomber basically give the defence of...regular armour.
Win the game for your team?

If only it was that easy.

Eh? No, mad bomber does NOT have good defence. You can wear almost any other armour and get hit for less than what you do in mad bomber. That's nothing to do with skill, that is numbers.
Mad bomber is hugely vulnerable to status effects becasue...well, all the negative resistances. That's not skill, that's numbers. It doesn't matter how good or awesome you are, mad bomber is not a tank set, because it has amazing offensive bonuses. I could be the best player in the world or the worst, and will get hit for exactly the same amount of damage because that IS numbers.
Why would they ever give a set that heaps on med/med bonuses on EACH part *and* give it decent defensive bonuses? Sound fair to you? Not at all. It is why bombers die easily when they get hit.
The whole point is to NOT get hit, after all. In that respect, don't get hit; use your fast status bombs to keep you safe.

But saying that mad bomber is good for tanking is simply wrong, it's not a skill or an opinion issue.
Saying that mad bomber is good for swords is wrong, because it does nothing for swords. Skolver, Vog Cub, Snarby, even Fencing Jacket are good for swords, because they are actually good for swords. mad bomber is good for bombs.
Not opinions, not skills, just fact.
If you wanna just drop a status bomb and sword people to death, get a half/half set, get high sword bonuses and then ggo recon to keep max CTR; you dono't need bomb damage at all for that tactic, and gives you more versatitliy. That is opinion, but it's also reasonable, logical opinion.

If you wanna walk into LD wearin' full mad bomber, then you really wanna be walkin' in with a handful of bombs to back up your stats, there's just no point walkin' in with swords/guns.

I mean, status them up, freeze/shock them. Then what? Hit them with a damage:none sword/gun? or drop a damage:max RSS and insta kill them, and anyone else nearby that gets caught in it?

I'm not full of myself, I never said anything about being some godly PvP'r, I just inserted some logic into your comment. I mean, how would you react if I said "Oh yeah, just grab myself a full Vog Cub set, then walk in with a polaris and shivermist; totally own everyone". You'd just be lke "lolwut? What's the point in that?".

Pay attention yo, bletherin', and certainly quit puttin' words in my mouth; I don't like being misquoted.

You just said that yes, it hurts to get hit in mad bomber. The solution is to not get hit. But that it doesn't hurt anyways.

Do you listen to yourself?

I don't generally go striker because it cripples bombs CTR times, leaving you with a decent sword bonus, decent speed, all the negative effects of mad bombers, crushed CTR time for bombs, and a nice juicy bomb damage bonuse that's irrelevant becasue you only use haze bombs.
So...you've got absolutely the worst of everything except swords? Why not...just go swords and use some Elite Bomb Focus mods to negate the negative CTR?

I mean, seems like you'ret aking the single most awkward solution and mixing up your stats just for the sake of being "revolutionary" when you could get the same bonuses without all the heaving negatives.

Personally, I like using my mad bomber with dps bombs, because it lets me..y'know, kill people in few hits. But that's because I use a bomber set with bombs, not...swords? :s

@Dark-Flare you were right about the brandish charge in LD. I went straight into one, but due to lag, it appeared I hit him first, but it actually didn't, and I died. They are reasonably effective, but an Antigua can end that quickly. ;)

you are telling me my LD setup is sh** and i cant kill anything and i get killed easily. fact is my team wins the majority of the times adn alot of it is because of me. "no fair you had a bomber :(" and such. personally i go in with Vt, nitronome, shadow driver and maybe radient sunshards or shiver.

Reading what you type is like listening to a 5 year old..I doubt you've even played lockdown in your mad bomber, ur just trollin

I think you all missed the point of this post...

I agree with the suggestion on range. I think they'd be alright if the range on the flourish were reduced ever so slightly. The really good strikers that use them wouldn't be hindered all that much and it'd probably feel a little more balanced overall. I'm fine with the damage and the speed. Flourishes should be good weapons.

Biased because I have no piercing defense due to being a Vog Cub

There is your problem, vog cub is crap.

Toothpicks doesnt have huge range, if you're getting kill from 10 squares ways means they have lower latency than you (meaning they "tell" to the server faster)

I say you are wrong OP.

First of all, as already stated, there are many ways around the BTB/FF Striker. In fact, Vog is useful, provided you don't get HIT by the BTB/FF.

In fact, if you are a good gunner, 3-4 hits from a 5* alchemer can be enough to kill one of those strikers. Blueflood is one of those, and he is a very good LD player imo.

And since we're on the topic of LD unfairness, how about nerfing those trinkets too! /sarcasm

^ Gran avenger....interesting idea. Btw, I'm all for range reduction. I have no piercing defense, and I am perfectly fine with the damage.

Thread is a little aged but it's still something that needs changed.

@Xylka
Your assertion that players up against toothpick users should be able to not get hit is quite frankly laughable. It reminded me of "let them eat cake". The only players that have a chance of doing this are other strikers. Even as a guardian with piercing defense the speed and high damage of rapier attacks will overcome your only advantage in seconds. Recon is not even worth mentioning. What's worse is if you're using a slower sword (which is everything except cutter line) then the victor is decided entirely by the skill of the toothpick user.

What I mean is if a brandish user got a hit in, it was because the FF wielder fumbled. But if both players are on top of their game then the FF wielder will always win because his attacks always hit first and cancel out the brandish user's swing flow.

Nerfing its speed would be unrealistic. It's a rapier so it's supposed to be quick. But it shouldn't pack the punch it does.

The solution is to nerf the weapon's damage and stopping power. By stopping power I mean its ability to interrupt attack flow which is the main thing that makes it so hard to beat. As it is now the coliseum is almost completely dominated by toothpickers. If your sword is going to be the fastest in the game it cannot also have tremendous damage and interrupt ability. That's unbalanced.

meh. I play recon with skolver/vog, Acheron (ASI Low), Magma Driver, and Voltaic Tempest. While I can't beat the best toothpick users, I can easily hold my own against most players. Also, there aren't that many players with shock resistance. At most I've seen 2 in a match and they typically switch out to something that is shock resistant (like divine mantel).

Is the incredible speed annoying? Sorta, am I going to QQ about it? no since I do well enough.

If i may offer a piece of advice on how to deal with extremely fast strikes.

I run skolver toothpick guardian with 2 elite quick slash trinks. Experienced strikes will continuously spam the first hit, shield cancelling constantly and dancing around you.

You actually have several time to swing your own sword. As you swing, you leave a sort of a ghost slash. Extremely brief, and hardly useful in pve. But against speedy opponents, they will dash into it, and proceed to wonder why your sword has a longer range.

When they charge you, when they had just finished a combo, when they are dancing around you dodging hits. Those are all opportunities to stick them. If they stay withing sword range of you, you can hit them back. If you can't seem to hit them due to their fancy footwork, slicing your butt to a million pieces, hit where they aren't.

The only real problem I have is not being able to cut them down before they cut me, and those who constantly dash in and out of sword range unpredictably.

Granted, I don't dare try this with a heavy sword. But for ff/btb users, it works well.