Spiral Knights - Let patch Gunners up in lockdown

Let patch Gunners up in lockdown

43 replies [Last post]

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 15:59

Barrel-Titor

Because rather than of encouraging the a combination of swords and bombs, it is necessary to buff gunners up without considering their perks.

Because apparently a sword and bomb can support a teammate over a distance in a 1 vs 1 battle.

Because apparently a sword and bomb can interrupt an opponent charging bombs.

Because in the context of a team game like lockdown, only the circumstances of striker with rapier vs striking gunners is considered. The rest are negligible.

Because it is wise to break guardian's shield with guns and slowly chip away his hp instead of dashing in with swords and striker's mobility.

Because striking gunners don't have any advantage against any types of recon and guardian.

Because swords and bombs can be used like polaris, utilised as deterrence over a safe distance.

Because 1v1 situation is clearly the way to go in lockdown.

Because instead of complimenting and combining various weapons to use in lockdown, some pvp no.1 seeking wannabes wanna change it to a guns only game.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 16:13

No-Thanks

Zelda

Because i lost my keys.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 16:56

Orangeo

Becuase I took an arrow to

Becuase I took an arrow to the knee OH.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 17:00

Slayzz

Gunners only need armor

Gunners only need armor starting at 2* (they deserve a chance at UVs), different assortment of gunner gear, and a fix to the ridiculous status resistances on Shadowsun. The guns themselves need no buffs. (Iron slug is the exception).

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 17:01

Jim-Dale

Jim Dale thought the gunner

Jim Dale thought the gunner was extinct.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 20:20

Xylka-Mkii

@Jim-Dale Not-Jim-Dale has

@Jim-Dale

Not-Jim-Dale has found 2 gunners recently.

@Slayzz
+1

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:19

Jontlemen

Heaven forbid guns aside from

Heaven forbid guns aside from the OP Polaris and niche Antigua line ever see any widespread use.

Whereas if you go only swords you can do reasonable well. Bonus points if your natural and UV armor resistances allow you to outright ignore 2 of 3 of the most popular mist bombs.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 08:49

Blue-Flood

I think gunners are ok now

I think gunners are ok now :).
The exception being certain people who seem to have Godlike lack of latency. Dunno what's up with that. Seeing people deal damage then swing is a big frustration.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 10:16

Chris

Polaris is by far the most

Polaris is by far the most overpowered weapon in lockdown when used properly.
Also one of the hardest to master.

Status guns can effect people with double max resist (can freeze skolvers). Require little skill to aim (run away and click on the person) whereas a swordsman has to dodge attacks while chasing and a bomber has to position to not have his/her charge interupted.
Freezing a skolver sets them up for an unavoidable gran faust combo which = auto death after taking a gun shot

Argent peacemaker/sentenza interrupt attacks with every shot and break reacon/guardian/striker guages with a near instantly traveling bullet and makes bombers useless. Even if a swordsman striker is on top of a gunner they will hardly even be able to land one attack when the gunner spams a peacemaker or sentenza.

Guns are extremely powerful in lockdown if you use them correctly. The problem is that most skilled players choose to go striker with swords because it is the best "team carry" just because they have the highest damage output (they are also in the most damage taking positions).

The people saying guns are underpowered are just failing noobs who need to practice and use their heads.

If me and some of the other top players all got gunner sets you would hear an instant rage about how OP gunners are.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 10:35

Alice-In-Pyroland

Gunners only need armor

This. The issues gunners are faced with in Lockdown is that they're forced to choose bewteen Max dmg or Penta Heart Pendants, the guns themselves are devastating when used correctly otherwise players like Blue wouldn't be able to consistently do so much damage with them. Fix the issues with gunner armour sets, and the few guns that do legitimately need fixing (Just about every normal damage gun, Plague Needle, give the Magnus line a 2*) and gunners will be fine.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 14:31

#10

Blue-Flood

"Require little skill to aim

"Require little skill to aim (run away and click on the person) whereas a swordsman has to dodge attacks while chasing and a bomber has to position to not have his/her charge interupted."

Are you kidding me?
This statement is just basically false. Where as YOU are able to see the bullets and dodge them, wherever your sword swings on YOUR screen is where it hits. Wherever my bullet fires depends where it shows on YOUR screen, not mine. You can be 10 feet from me on my screen and swing your rapier, but that doesn't matter because on YOUR screen I'm right next to you. My bullet can hit you square in the face repeatedly, but on YOUR screen it whizzes by you giving the average player a false sense of a hit-box.

"Even if a swordsman striker is on top of a gunner they will hardly even be able to land one attack when the gunner spams a peacemaker or sentenza."

...OK?
Sentenza might kill you in like... 12 shots with your heart trinkets? Maybe more. With Max ASI + autoaim you just keep clicking till you hit them twice and they're dead. This would be good in theory, but there's no way it's practical. Especially with the first sweep of a flourish hit. One has to reload after 6 shots where as when you're hit once with this gun it resets your swing count. False statement again.

Where do you get this stuff?

Anyway, some of the "top" players have gone gunner for fun, then quickly back to skolver striker and with good reason.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 12:29

#11

Ozymandius

Man.

Chris, I hope you can get some top players showing us how OP gunners are. That'd be amazing. No really. I'd love to see one game where a gunner team shreds a team of Skolvers with their Flourishes. But you should do this before whatever balance changes are coming, so get to it.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 13:09

#12

Nicoya-Kitty

@Chris Aww, you're just

@Chris Aww, you're just saying that 'cause I killed you with my Polaris. Ain't no shame in it. :D

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 14:20

#13

Xylka-Mkii

Find Blueflood and play him

Find Blueflood and play him in LD.

He's a quite good gunner.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 16:39

#14

Retequizzle

Having played with Blueflood

Having played with Blueflood several times in October, all I can say is he makes gunning in Lockdown seem unreal.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 17:16

#15

Trihelix

Originally posted by

Originally posted by Chris:
"The people saying guns are underpowered are just failing noobs who need to practice and use their heads.

If me and some of the other top players all got gunner sets you would hear an instant rage about how OP gunners are."

This is hilarious. No really. So much good stuff in this post that you'd almost think this was trolling. Except it's Chris, and he's just ignorant like this normally.

For one thing, calling yourself a top player in Spiral Knights is like calling yourself the best at clicking "craft Skolver Coat." When you speak down upon everyone else it naturally makes them not like you, especially when you have no reason to think this way.

Secondly, please chat with Blueflood sometime (he's already replied, I know). Give him a rapier and he's dominant. Give him guns and outdamage/outplay the mediocre/weak Skolvers. A 16k gun game is legendary. A 16k rapier game is something everyone has had at one point.

I challenge you, Chris, to put aside your Heart Pendants, ridiculous UV Skolver outfit and rapier, and just try gunning. We'll see if you're preaching the same message. You seem to have plenty of money to burn, so invest in a Shadowsun set and see how it goes. You're crazy if you think guns are overpowered.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 01:36

#16

Jontlemen

@Chris Pray tell who are

@Chris
Pray tell who are these god gunners? I mean I've seen some pretty good ones, but they don't do crazy good (and some of them rely heavily on auto-aim).

I have never seen any of these hyper-exceptional gunners, and I have played enough lockdown to get 3 Elite trinkets and 3 or 4 more Mod Calibrators for extra profit.

I seem to trip over God Skolvers every time I play, with their double high shock resist armor, ASI-UV weaponry, and double heart pendants.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 04:10

#17

Alice-In-Pyroland

(and some of them rely

(and some of them rely heavily on auto-aim)

Which makes no sense since auto-aim is inhibiting to gunners in Lockdown, if you aren't leading your shots you won't hit anything due to the way hit detection on bullets works.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 04:20

#18

Jontlemen

@Echoez Not if you're close.

@Echoez
Not if you're close. At longer ranges, sure.
The gunners I saw were using their gun like a mobile sword, which would be difficult to do without AA.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 04:31

#19

Alice-In-Pyroland

I think it's a bit unfair to

I think it's a bit unfair to inherently assume that any decent gunner who partakes in close range combat must be using auto-aim and can't simply be good (And even if they are; the vast majority of Lockdown players use auto-aim so it's a pretty disengenious to critique them for it). What I'm getting at is that at the very least they're using it as a mapped key, no gunner in their right mind would have it defaulted to on since the vast majority of the time it's a handicap.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 04:34

#20

Jontlemen

Fair enough

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 12:04

#21

Blue-Flood

re-read first post

Also auto-aim is canceled if you're moving and attacking. If you move and shoot the bullets fly where they may. You have to be stationary which is dangerous in gunning. Swordsmen go through their attack animations with the inability to move, so auto-aim is usually in their favor because of the damage output.

Would be cool if there were an auto-drop option for bombers so they don't have to time their ping when spamming bombs.

So really... was this whole first post about yours truely? I honestly don't know of any other character that mains striker-gunner. Either way, I'm flattered.

And I would like to hope the creators/editors of this game don't take in account only one character. Most FTP games have to make money somehow, so they'll cater to new players and the people who tend to invest in the game as a hobby and that's fine. If it stays sword-oriented then so be it. Some are stubborn enough to stick with their guns. :)

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 13:27

#22

Xanafein

Most guns in Pvp need a buff,

Most guns in Pvp need a buff, and gunslingers def need better armour

But the Polaris, that thing needs some serious balance in both PvP and PvE

My suggestion is that instead having good chance to cause moderate

give it a low chance of causing severe i only say this because in pvp that thing seems to shock me 2 out of 3 times i get hit, and then i get blasted all over the place by the expanded shot, wich leaves me at a further distance, so all the next shots are going to be able to expand, and shocked, so its extremely difficult to get out of the way

There is a reason gunners in lock down spam polaris, once you get good with it it is ever bit as dangerous if not more so than many swords

downside is in close quarters I.E sword range, you are gonna get cut to ribbons but last i checked that is what swords are for, just like guns are for ranged

Ideally you nerf the elemental effect, that reduces the polaris' stun lock ability and gives a swordy a chance to get in closer, wich forces the gunner to do what a pure gunner should do ( run away to attempt to resume his firing) or what a hybrid will do (pull a sword and finish the now injured assailant)

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 13:46

#23

Ozymandius

Run away?

You realize most gunners can't "run away", backpedalling to keep shooting, right? In LD when a swordman closes to you and starts cutting you to ribbons maintaining distance to fire or even actually fleeing is rarely an option that works because most swordsmen are also Strikers. I'd almost be tempted to suggest Recons get a slight Movement Speed bonus or something, but I think that'd only fix the problem if taken to the extreme, and then it'd be all sorts of new problems.

Also, I can't speak for you Xanafein, but I know when I'm spamming my Polaris pretty hard it doesn't seem to shock that often. Maybe you're unlucky, or I am. It's much closer to 1 in 5, I'd wager. And with those odds, I'm usually bleeding to death on the floor by then if I'm alone.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 13:57

#24

Nicoya-Kitty

@Blueflood Oh what I wouldn't

@Blueflood Oh what I wouldn't give for an auto-drop. Interrupts mess me up so much when bombing, since the charge time seems to get out of sync between the server and client on the next charge.

What I'd really love most of all, though, is to be able to not lose the charge if I drop early. Like, I'd be able to half-charge, let go of the attack key for maybe up to a second, and if I hit attack again it would continue charging from the partial charge.

The way it is now, if I drop early my character goes into an inexplicably slow cancellation animation that nearly immobilizes me for almost an entire second, which basically means I get shredded by the nearest toothpick. Compare that with a sword or gun: releasing a half charge not only doesn't psuedo-stun you, it deals damage to the enemy by firing a shot.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 15:59

#25

Chris

Blueflood you couldn't be

Blueflood you couldn't be more incorrect.
Hits are decided on your client not the server.
That is the main problem with lockdown, especially before the server migration.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 16:26

#26

Blue-Flood

bomb

@Nicoya-Kitty
The partial charge might be good in theory also, but you'd have every striker 99% charging a bomb in the locker room then sprinting to the furthest location to drop their bomb. Maybe just an auto-drop and go from there :).

Do you play T3 LD? I have yet to see ya there. I can mindlessly spam RSS and Venom Veiler for fun, but it'd be nice to see a pro bomber in t3.

@Chris
Ok, you're an expert at everything and I submit to your experience and logic.

Actually, Let's all agree then that striker skolvers lead a rough life and every battle is an underdog match. They have to dodge bullets that they cannot see and their swords hit nothing but air even when they're right next to their opponent. They actually have to guess where the opponent will be in the next 1-2 seconds.

Oh wait... it's opposite day :p

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 18:34

#27

Chris

Both swords and guns follow

Both swords and guns follow the client side hit rule.
You hit people who are in front of you on your screen. There are no exceptions to this rule.

You sound childish.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 18:46

#28

Trihelix

Wouldn't be pointing fingers

Wouldn't be pointing fingers about being childish Chris.

Again, get an Umbra Driver and go play Lockdown with it. Then come back and tell me how equal it is to a rapier (if you can actually hit anyone with it) and how everyone in your matches were complaining that guns are overpowered. Then get 20k damage just as easily as you do in your Lockdown videos against laughably bad opponents. You won't shoot enough bullets to get 20k. The only reason Polaris is so easy to use is because of the exploding bullet spam. When each shot must be precise? Heh, have fun hitting moving targets.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 18:46

#29

Nicoya-Kitty

@Blueflood Well, if they're

@Blueflood Well, if they're reaching the far control point within one second then I want whatever striker boost they're using! I figure the charge would be cancelled by shielding anyway. At some point I'll flesh this out properly and put it in the Suggestions forum.

I played around a bit in T3, but I don't really have the gear for it. I might try again once I craft my Virulisk set to Deadly and actually craft some 5* bombs. I've been kind of ignoring upgrading my bombs until the RSS patch [doesn't] happens. Like, if ISB gets the charge time fixed and goes shadow, like it should have been from the beginning, I'll be crafting one in an instant to spam in T3. But if I make an RSS and OOO breaks everyone's hearts by making it pure pierce, well, that's 400ce and a Sun Shards wasted.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 18:52

#30

Chris

Childish reply trying to say

Childish reply trying to say I'm childish.

Oh lawdy I need to stop playing games where 95% of the community is under age 15

I'm out.
Can't tell if trolling or just underage.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 19:00

#31

Jontlemen

All we're asking is that you

All we're asking is that you put your money where your mouth is. Surely it wouldn't be such a hard task for one of LD's top players.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 19:55

#32

Iron-Volvametal

Challenge Accepted.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_P1KK-Uc_jQo/TCtl2oJZJLI/AAAAAAAABbk/APg3Zsq3DG...

EDIT: Wrong Image.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 19:39

#33

Blue-Flood

believe it!

Would I seem out of touch if I don't know what trolling is, I just hear it being said a lot?:)

Again Chris, bullets don't follow the same rule. I mean, you can keep saying they do. I can keep saying I can run as fast as a car if I drink gasoline, but that also sounds silly. :p

Opposite day is from Spongebob! You're so out of touch.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 19:52

#34

Nicoya-Kitty

For the record, I've never

For the record, I've never been hit by a gun shot in LD that hasn't appeared to hit me on my screen. I can't say the same for swords.

One interesting thing to note is that when you experience severe network lag or become disconnected from the servers, bullet behaviour changes. Polaris shots will fail to expand, alchemer bullets won't ricochet, and so on. This would imply that the bullets (at least slow shot ones) are server-side entities, and as such the hit detection will also be server-side. I don't know if antigua or magnus line guns are bullet entity or hitscan though, but given that alchemers seem to be a PVP gunners' bread and butter I'm not sure that it much matters.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 19:56

#35

Retequizzle

^ Seconding the "being hit

^ Seconding the "being hit with swords a second out of sync with the actual swing" bit. I haven't been hit with a gun I didn't deserve to get hit with though, either from a mistake on my end and just not paying close attention or something else. I'm also curious if either side can provide evidence as to whether hits are determined on a client-side basis or server-side, because all I see is basically, "It's this because you're wrong."

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 20:56

#36

Neodasus

apparently you have never

apparently you have never used a polaris

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 21:32

#37

Trihelix

So Chris, is your strategy

So Chris, is your strategy when you don't have a response just to call someone a child in an attempt to feel better about yourself? I'm not going to stoop to your level.

All we're asking you to do, as Jontlemen said, is put your money where your mouth is. Instead of blindly bragging about how instantly guns would became part of the Lockdown metagame if you tried to play them, actually try them for yourself. There is nothing childish about asking you to back up a claim; it's your own fault for patting yourself on the back at every opportunity.

Mon, 01/16/2012 - 09:02

#38

Neodasus

Guns will always be

Guns will always be supporting weapons. Get over it.

Mon, 01/16/2012 - 09:25

#39

Trihelix

If they're supporting

If they're supporting weapons, how come there are armor sets dedicated to gunning? How come guns cost exactly the same amount as swords if they aren't as important?

Mon, 01/16/2012 - 12:43

#40

Neodasus

The honest truth is that I

The honest truth is that I have never seen a gunner take a control point on his own in a 2(or more)v1 situation. Guns will never be a viable option unless they add some sort of blast radius weapon. Chris and I mentioned Polaris as the most important gun in the game (as Knightmare members are so much more experienced and knowledgeable), and rightfully so. Blast radius weapons have more stopping power in 2v1 situations than any other gun, so go beg OOO to give you missiles or rockets. I have never seen a gunner lead his team to a win, maybe in damage (See: Blueflood), but never a win. I have never seen a gunner win in a 2v1 situation which I am apart of.

The best gunners are:

-The ones that actively search for recons
-The ones that support teammates in swarms by cancelling the attacks of their opponents
-The ones that "seal" up passages with polaris allowing enemies to come through a choke point

Gunners will never be like swordsmen, they will never allow a lolcowboy player to come in with guns blazing and decimate an entire team. It's not possible and will never be possible. The same goes for pure bombers, you are only a supporting player and will always be a supporting player.

Once they get that first hit on you there is no stopping them from juggling you in place until you die. The best "gunners" (not lolcowboy but actual gunners) in the game are Jontlemen and Namewithnumbers just because they use guns as support and use a sword as their main weapon.

EDIT: @Trihelix (they need to add quotes....)

1. Fashion Knights (lolcowboy)

2. So you can support faster and harder

Mon, 01/16/2012 - 13:22

#41

Shidara

Guns-a-blazing!

All right, I'm gonna go support my team so hard! HOORAH!!

Moving on, I'd like to see a full gunslinger team decimating an opposing strong team with mixed players.
Chris, I'm looking at you. Make it happen, O' Mighty One.

As for Polaris being exceedingly OP, that's because it has something Supernova doesn't. A status effect. The knockback is annoying, but aside from the initial damage isn't deadly on its own (unless it knocks you right into a trap, in which case I wonder why the heck you're fighting next to one). The shock is what makes this gun so devastating, because shock interrupts all movements and any damage received within the period of the spasm counts. Say if two guys run in and smack you once with a Gran Faust simultanously, you're down, whereas otherwise you'd have the invincibility period on your side and only take the first hit. I seem to recall this is how shock works. If not, I've been drunk or I'm just stupid like that. (Probably the latter given I'm still five in my mind.) Make a fire pulsar and a poison pulsar and they'll be all over the place just like the Polaris, except they won't have as many followers as Shock is superior.

Although the last time I checked, Alchemers bounced their bullets around, so if you fire into a mob you'll get several hits regardless. Only tough part is hitting one target, which is server-side. I've fired a bullet straight at someone and it missed. I've fired a bullet ahead of them, and it hits when their character reaches the destination of where the bullet stopped. It's like firing at a moving target in Call of Duty, except your bullets are much, much slower and have a buggy hit box.

Tue, 01/17/2012 - 15:52

#42

Neodasus

So did anyone notice that the

So did anyone notice that the same people complaining about the learning curve of guns in LD are the same ones complaining about the low difficulty of the game?

Tue, 01/17/2012 - 17:10

#43

Ozymandius

Even if that were true Neodasus...

Say it with me now:

"Correlation is not causation!"

The game -is- easy now, for anyone who's been playing awhile. The heavy nerfs and corrections of unintentional behavior in the game in the last 6 months have really eased up the difficulty of the game. That's true regardless of what weapon you use. I had a lot more trouble getting to be a better player with guns (heck, I still have room to improve) than I did with a sword when I first started out.

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Let patch Gunners up in lockdown