Spiral Knights - [Discussion] Lockdown+; Things just got complicated

[Discussion] Lockdown+; Things just got complicated

43 replies [Last post]

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 15:25

Shidara

Greetings everyone, Shidara speaking.

As an enthusiastic Lockdown player, I've had my fair share of games with lightning-fast strikers, sneaky assassin Recons and bulky Guardian tanks. I'm just letting this out now, I love RPGs, because I love progression and getting stronger. I came to Spiral Knights because it was different. It had an RPG-like system, what with levelling up equipment and advancing. Strength in this game is defined by your ability to evade damage and handle your weapons to dish out as much damage as possible without taking hits. Lockdown is competitive, and I love competition despite how infuriating it might become for me, so I started thinking... What if Lockdown had a level-up system?

I imagine some people are already preparing to close the topic, others wanting to read on, and some who are entirely neutral. Either way, please read on because I want to hear your voice in the form of lovely pixelated text. Moving on, suppose there is a level-up system for the three different Lockdown classes. The more you use them, the more 'experience' you gain for that class. After accumulating enough experience, the class levels up and an ability is enhanced or you gain another one. I want to hear from you guys what possible abilities could come into effect with levelling up a certain class, how many times you can upgrade them, how this would affect Lockdown gameplay, and if I'm a stupid [jerk] for bringing this up in the first place.

Let's cut to the chase and start with the good stuff (or if you love the traditional system, 'what'll ruin the game'.)
Note: These are speculated 'upgrades' that I myself have thought of. Feel free to add you own input on additional abilities, what they do, how they interact with other players and also remember to voice what you think should be different with what I have proposed myself. Abilities are not listed chronologically.

You level up a thing! What goodies do you get?
: Guardian :
- Greater shield radius; allows you to fit players further away into your protective dome. 1 pt.
- Out-of-reach protection; grants players who just left your dome protection for a short amount of time, but decreases shield radius. 3 pts.
- Increased health regeneration; speeds up health regeneration while the shield is activated, but shield health is decreased. 3 pts.
- Remedy field; players are healed/unaffected by status whilst in the dome, but you cannot shield whilst affected by status and health regeneration is disabled. 3 pts.
- Swift guardian; increased movement speed while shielding. 2 pts.
- Increased knockback; attacks gain an increased knockback to distance hostiles, but attack speed is decreased. 3 pts.
- Sturdy shield; increased shield recharge. 2 pts.
- Steady aim; increased handgun attack speed (removal of handgun attack speed decrease.) 1 pt.

: Recon :
- Greater pulse radius; increases the area of effect for your recon pulse. 1 pt.
- *Status-immunity; immune to status whilst cloaked (attacks that deal status will not affect you whilst cloaked), but cloaking is disabled whilst under a status and movement speed is decreased. 3 pts.
- Greater disruption; greater chance to inflict status with a weapon that can inflict status, but decreases damage. 3pts.
- Swift rogue; increased movement speed while cloaked. 2 pts.
- 'Sudden Death'; increased recon pulse speed. 2 pts.
- Shadow veil; increases team-mates' defence for a short period of time when hit with a Recon pulse. 2 pts.
- ^Metal cloak; attacks gradually chip off cloak durability instead of immediately disabling it, but cloak recharges slower. 3 pts.
- Night cloak; increased cloaking durability. 2 pts.
- ~Clairvoyant eye; reveals the position of cloaked enemy recons where your pulse hits, but decreases damage. 3 pts.
- Trained arm; increased sword attack speed (removal of sword attack speed decrease.) 1 pt.
- Scout; shows the enemy team on your mini-map. 2 pts.
- ¯Radar feed; enables you to reveal enemies on your team's mini-map by marking them a third time with your pulse, but slows down pulse speed. 3 pts.
- Going Dark; decreases pulse radius. 2 pts.
- Laser tripwire; provides you with a deployable laser tripwire that alerts your team when it is passed. 2 pts.

* I know some will react to this in the wrong way if it goes unexplained so allow me. Immunity is only granted whilst cloaked, meaning that yes, you can indeed run through haze bombs unaffected, however, if you uncloak to attack, you will immediately become vulnerable. Use this ability wisely. Attacks that can possibly inflict status will not inflict status on the blow that knocks the player out of the cloak. Immunity is disabled when uncloaked.
^ Leaves a brief silhuette where the player was hit, similar to the shield-hit animation, revealing the position of impact for a brief moment.
~ Visible only to you, or the entire team? Discuss.
¯ Durability out in the open. Possibilities are temporary effect (active for a period of time), lifetime effect (until the target is eliminated), or match effect (marked for the rest of the game.)

: Striker :
- Turbulence; increases team-mates' movement speed for a short period of time if they walk into your boosting trail. 1 pt.
- Extra fuel tank; increased Boost gauge, but decreases attack speed. 3 pts.
- Prey; defeated players drop more hearts, but decreases damage. 3 pts.
- *Morale; increases team attack power when standing on a control point that belongs to your team. 2 pt.
- Explosive temper; reduced bomb charge time (removal of charge time increase for bombs,) but decreases boost gauge. 3 pts.
- Martyrdom; drops an equipped bomb upon death (if multiple bombs are equipped, the bomb that is highest in the order is dropped.) 2 pts.

* You emit a radius buff similar to that of an Alpha Wolver. Increases damage bonus by one point (Low). Does not stack with other Morale buffs and does not buff yourself.

Note: The point-values and penalties are out in the open. Feel free to discuss what you feel the abilities should be worth.

"Pts."? Points? What gives?
Suggested by Neodasus in post #5, a skill point system to allow for customization instead of forced application seems like a good idea.
To prevent over-usage of powerful abilities, this system will be executed to keep things balanced. Abilities' total value can not breach the point cap to prevent imbalance. The current point cap is at 6, please discuss. Also keep in mind we have not established a max point value for a single ability yet, but so far I am assuming a value of 3.

Levelling up?
How does it work? We have a number of possibilities.
A) Damage. Most typical in combat-progression.
B) Captures. It's the objective of the game! You gain experience based on how many points your capture points accumulate for you. Note: You must capture the point yourself in order to gain experience from it.
C) End-game points. You gain experience based on overall team performance.
D) Play-time. Your class levels up based on usage.

Levels!
How many levels are there? 10? 5? 3? More? Less? Which level unlocks what ability? Discuss, for I have no idea!

Are these additional abilities O.P.? Yes, but could they work out? Can they be altered to fit their roles better? Are they too powerful? Could they be better? Am I an idiot? Actually, you don't even have to answer that.

How would Lockdown play out with these abilities in play, do you think? Would it be fun to play with all of this? Would it become more competitive? Would it not? I'm asking a lot of questions, and only you guys can really answer these for me. I am but one player, with a different perspective and way of thinking. Are these fantasies that don't belong here, or could they become reality? You guys think it through and pass on your judgement in this topic.

I think this is all I have for the time being. I guess the bottom line is that I don't want to just hear "No, this will never work out", or "Yes, they should totally implement this!" Add some thought into your post and review what you like or dislike. Please, also try to think of what could be done differently. I want this to be a discussion topic, not a "shoot down the horrible suggestion!" Oh yeah, and it's not a direct suggestion either, so there's that.
Thank you for reading through, and tell me what you think!
Shidara out.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 15:44

Guardianknight

You're not a stupid for bringing this up in the first place

I think these are some great ideas that would make lockdown a lot more fun. Since so many people play LD, the experience needed
to level up would have to be a pretty high number and the number would have to grow with each level gained. One option for an ability
would be the penalty on each class gets removed.

You already have a lot of questions so i'm going to read some again and post again later.

The one and only, Guardianknight.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 16:54

Kasane-Misan

Interesting...

I am not much of a Lockdown player myself, but I find that this will make my Lockdown games more interesting. I really have nothing much to see, but that this would be very interesting to see in Lockdown itself.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 17:16

Tennis

---

There are two things that I'd suggest for the Recon class.

1.
The way I see it, there are Recons who help their teammates by inflicting the Death Mark upon opponents.
And there are Recons who only focus on using their invisibility cloak to remain hidden and inflict damage by springing out of nowhere.

"Greater pulse radius; increases the area of effect for your recon pulse."

The ability stated above, would be useful for the "teammate helping" recon but not the... "solo" recon.

I'd suggest that the ability could be broken up to two lines of advancements, and the player could switch between the two abilities as if they were different loadouts.
One would be the ability to increase the pulse radius, the other would be to decrease the pulse radius.

2.
My second suggestion is to change this-
"'Sudden Death'; only one pulse is required to inflict the Death Mark."

I would say this would be a bit OP in game.
A team could have 3 recons or so who inflict the death mark upon sight on any poor soul, and any decent striker can come along, poke them twice and then they're dead.

I'd suggest removing this enhancement and replacing it with a faster pulsar, if that makes sense.
With this ability a recon would be able to inflict the warning sign and then the death mark sign more quickly.
This way, it's still a worthy ability to have but nothing too overpowered.

Anyways, I'd say I'm neutral to this new system of Lockdown you're suggesting.
I'm fine with the Lockdown the game currently has, but I'm always up for new things. ^^

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 17:31

Negimasonic

How about an ability for

How about an ability for guardians that actually stops attacks from piercing through to the teammates until it is broken. You still have to dodge inside those things or get pushed out by a polaris, etc.

Guardian:
I think their increased movement speed should be returning them to normal walk speed while shielding.
Increased health regeneration sounds possibly broken. Current GOOD guardians can just sit back on a control point and hold off one or two guys. (I am not one of those aforementioned guardians)

Recon:*Status-immunity; I love being a recon just for fun. I'm also one of those haze bombers :D But this rubs me the wrong way because I know haze bomb clouds are never 100% effective even against someone with no resistance. Don't get me wrong, it's not extremely common, but it is noticable dropping a stagger storm and seeing a bold skolver striker run through for about 1 second before getting stunned with no resist. 1 second seems like a short time, but that's just enough time to dash through and slash. With this ability, a recon could slide right up to said bomber, slash once, and recloak within that time interval with enough ASI.

Greater pulse radius sounds awesome...but it can also be terrible. Why? Sometimes being a recon low on health you want to get away but don't want to go all the way back to base, so you hide where the opponents think you're gone. Or if you're just simply trying to sneak around. The bigger the circle is, the harder that will be to do. Perhaps the ability to select perks would be useful in this case, that way everyone can earn it, but not be forced to use it.

The other things you mentioned for recon sound pretty fun. I'm a little dubious about metal cloak. I could definitely benefit from it and it would be more in line with how TF2 spies work. But it sounds like it could have the potential to make things unbalanced. (Good time for OOO to fire up those testing servers again to see, not that I could be a part of that but it'd be helpful).

Striker: Quick Feet
No. They're already a problem enough lol. The other buffs seem fine. Even seems like it might promote more teamplay from other classes since they may actually slow down to hang with the other classes, or use turbulence so the teammates aren't left as far behind in the dust.
I'm not sure whether the Damage bonus low will be helpful to them though. There's a lot of full skolver + striker already at max, so they can't go any higher. It would help out the vogs though.

Maybe I'll say more stuff later, but I doubt it. Still good ideas and well see what other feedback you get.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 17:44

Neodasus

The only way I can see this

The only way I can see this working is to have a value-based skillset. For instance, each skill you listed is worth a certain value and you can only equip so many at a time. Extra protection outside the shield would be 3 or so, and out of a maximum 6 skill points.

This way I don't have to have an increased pulse radius if I don't want it....as I like to remain hidden for ambushes

SEGA already had this setup under the Phantasy Star Universe series through their unique class-based system. They should know about this at OOO.
Skills are gained through leveling, then you are only allowed a set number of perks based on your total level and value of the skills. I think this is a great idea.

By the way, we're going to have to create private/public lockdown rooms like we would in PSO/PSU for battle mode.

This will enable the feature to have perks disabled. This pleases everyone.

Please OOO, consider this....modify it as you see fit but at least consider the idea of enhanced perks

edit: I don't like the idea of solo capturing in order to receive cap experience, but you won't be the one implementing the idea OOO will, so we'll leave it at that

I don't even think admins post in suggestion threads anyway. Another idea thrown away. A pity too, I would pay for PvP perks/extras.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 19:50

Shidara

WOW, this is a huge post!

See, this is why I labeled this a discussion thread. I know full and well that none of these ideas are perfect - I simply brainstormed them to raise a debate concerning things that could spice up competitive Lockdown and Lockdown in general. I love the activity, and adding more fun to it is something to be desired for those who put in the time and effort.

Tennis raises a point concerning the establishment of the additional abilities, or perks as you like to call them. Being forced to use and ability that in theory is a great weapon but in practice could end up working against certain players with a different playstyle is a terrible concept. As Neodasus also mentioned, having the ability to customize the usage of perks is a step in the right direction and something we should aim for.
Continuing the perks system, assigning a point-value for each individual perk to sum up a grand total to prevent making players with more perks overpowered is a great idea. This also allows for much more diversity as players will have their own loadout of perks to match their playstyle, so with that in mind not every striker predating you and your team is going to be the same. Neodasus proposed a maximum total of six skill points for assigning perks, he also suggested Out-of-reach protection receive a value of three skill points. So we have a small start, but there are more perks to look out for that needs assigning and I'm expecting more perks to pop up as more players stumble across the topic with ideas of their own. We'll take on those as they come, though. If I am to pass any judgement of my own at Neodasus' proposed cap, the other perks need assigned their own skill point value. I'll leave this open for discussion and add it to the OP momentarily, possibly adding some values of my own while I'm at it to at least get us started on a system here.

Moving on, Tennis deemed the 'Sudden Death' perk overpowered, and I do agree. I am pleased to see that he was willing to propose a change, as this entire thing is a concept that is out in the open, and said proposal was to instead change it to a faster pulse. I find this a good idea and will change the OP after this post.
Negimasonic said Increased health regeneration could end up broken. Admittably, I have no experience being a Guardian in Lockdown, simply because I do not have the hardware power for it. Had I a more optimized computer and possibly a better internet provider I could have tested this out but my set up is simply not cut to play the Guardian role. I'll need input from players who specialize in the Guardian role or have enough experience with it to make any adjustments.
You also said Status-immunity could be abused with the nature of haze bombs. One solution could be to tweak it in a way to make haze bombs immediately take effect on Recons after uncloaking, or to simply disable re-cloaking whilst standing in the middle of the haze, forcing you to run out of the haze in order to re-cloak which puts you at risk getting inflicted by the status anyway.
I can't say much for Metal coat aside from the fact that we need to see it tested in order to put any real judgement on it. I explained that if the player is hit with this perk active, a silhuette will show where they got hit to alert the attacker that there's a recon nearby and they just hit them. It'd be easier to judge if the idea is ever put to the test, though.
You oppose Quick Feet but you don't really elaborate your reason. If I don't know why you oppose it, I can't make any adjustments to regard your opinion.
Morale was thought up with teamplay in mind. If you work in groups, that extra damage bonus is going to help your team defend a control point under attack. I chose low as to make sure it's not too powerful right off the bat. If a higher boost is desired I can take it into consideration, but it's a start. Like you said, it's not going to affect players who maxed out their damage bonus, but the perk isn't for those players in the first place.

Neodasus mentioned a mode with perks disabled, and I'm all for this. The only concern I have is whether or not Three Rings would bother with it if the idea is to be implemented. I'll say I agree, though.
As for your concern in regards to level-up through capture, I'm not entirely certain of what you mean. If you mean 'solo-capturing' as in taking a control point by yourself then that's not what I meant. If what you mean is through manually capturing a point to receive experience for it, then that is exactly what I mean. If that's not in your fancy, please look at option C.

Bottom line of this post, though, is Guardianknight's proposal of removal of class-penalties as a perk. I'm not entirely sure if I agree with this one, but I'll list it and we'll see what the others think of it.

Thanks for the feedback guys, I really appreciate it. :)

Edit: OP has been updated.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 20:15

Rangerwillx

Great ideas.

This really sounds good, I'd love if this was implemented.
Shame that almost none of the ideas that are given are implemented, but maybe SK can make this one come true.
Neodasus mentioned a point cap, so you couldn't have all the perks and I think that would be great.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 20:36

Orngeblu

lol

Sounds great, but I would like to add one more upgrade to the recons abilities. ^^ Ability to see the other teams players on the map, because you can't see the other team on the map in Lockdown. It would be great if Recons could scout them out, where they are, and how many.

Great idea Shidara. :3

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 20:46

Shidara

Thanks!

That actually gives me an idea for another ability, which is partially inspired by Modern Warfare 3's Recon Perk; marking enemies on the map. Say if you hit an enemy three times in succession with the pulse, the targetted player becomes visible on your team's mini-map. This could be a temporary effect, lifetime effect or match effect. (For a short period of time, until the player dies or until the game ends.)

I'll update the OP in a second.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 20:52

#10

Orngeblu

lol

It should probably be a temporary effect. Having their for the whole match...everyone is going to be chasing that character around, and it can be annoying. It can't be too long either.

Thanks for taking my idea into consideration. :D I don't play Modern Warfare 3 though.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 21:09

#11

Icycloud

Recon

As a sword recon, i prefer doing away the death mask. It expose me that im near them thus alerting them

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 22:05

#12

Retequizzle

The ability names could use

The ability names could use some work. For example - "trained arm"?

That'd be much more suited to being called "Assassin" or something.

Otherwise, +1 because I like this idea and it would definitely spice up Lockdown a lot more.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 22:13

#13

Tennis

@Icycloud

That's what I was getting at in my first post.
There could be another "perk" to Recons that would allow the pulse radius to be smaller.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 22:34

#14

Negimasonic

D: Y U CALL ME BACK I WANTED TO POST AND LEAVE

Perks disabled mode I feel will cause problems. We're already having issues with lockdown seggregation without any divisions other than the tiers. Imagine another tickbox for perks and no perks. Additionally, time would have to be considered by the development team as to whether you should earn any points towards leveling on non-perk matches. But I feel the other point is the more pressing problem.

Customizing your perks sounds best to me. It WILL favor those who have played since the start of this new perk system, but that's not that much different from how it is now (people who have played a long time are more skilled have better items )

Quick feet...I'm against making strikers faster than they already are. I didn't touch your added boost perk, I figured that was good enough. As to why, other than that, with an additional boost bar and quick feet, you will make them uncatchable by any other class. When their boost runs out, they tend to be easier to catch as it stands now, that doesn't make them any less dangerous of course, but it means you have a window to catch them and kill them. But if they can walk faster than you after the boost ends, you will never touch them as any other class especially since their speed boosts are only applied upon shielding (and that makes sense).

I support Tennis's faster death mark option.

Recon map marking sounds sort of cool. As far as the issue of length, this is just an opinion, but I think it should be permanent during the lifetime of the marked enemy. Only escapable by death OR by running back to the locker room (I'm not quite sure just going back to the heart pads would be sufficient distance, perhaps it might be). This way a recon hanging by the enemy base may scare some enemies into either running back or hunting the recon (strikers should still be able to dash fast enough to escape if they are paying attention).
I however am unsure whether this ability should work on fellow recons, it kind of sounds awesome if it did, but that means even accidentally running into a fellow recon enemy would ruin it for you both. Perhaps this could be solved by making it only apply to an uncloaked recon (you could still receive the marks while being cloaked). This way, you could still stand a chance of sneaking past enemy lines.

No to removing the penalties perk. Why? There's a reason strikers got those bomb nerfs during/soon after the testing forums. Now granted, it probably still wouldn't be overused like it was then now that everyone has grown used to slash slash slash, but it is something to be wary of. Especially now with trinkets, you'd have a fast bomber who could have the health of a recon...so awesome!...er I mean broken.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 22:48

#15

Demonicsothe

How would one level in a

How would one level in a match? Kills/caps/defends/deaths? Or would it be a gradual level up as the match progresses, perhaps allowing the team losing in points to "gain" levels faster, and reaching the maximum allowed faster than the other team? This would promote furious fights near the end of the match, when everyone is "maxed" out.

Would it be a new level per match basis? Or would it carry over from previous matches? If it does carry over, this would mean a few days of people being entertained. But once everyone reaches the max perk/level, the games will return to the norm, albeit with some class difference.

I don't agree with customizable skill sets. This would be harder to balance, as opposed to just making subclasses of strikes, ie, faster strikes with a damage penalty, or harder hitting strikes with speed limits. The player community is not as thick as their maturity puts them to be, and many will find a slightly superior combination of skillsets to win, making everything like skolver toothpicks.

Aura's are a great idea, allowing all classes to play more of an utility role. But aoe status resistance sounds too good. Any kind of aoe asi/damage increase or status resistance makes things broken. Aoe defensives, like more piercing/shadow/elemental defence sounds good though, as one would have to pick which damage type to defend against.

With upgrades in perks, there should be downgrades in other areas. Say a recon gains status immunity, they should then have the effect of the mark reduced, range reduced, or speed of inflicting marks lowered. That being said, it leads to another question. What if a supposed downgrade was in fact a boon? Some recons don't play for the mark. They play for the ninja style. So the positive effects of each downgrade must be examined as well.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thats all I got.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 07:47

#16

Xainthejust

I love this idea! A sense of

I love this idea! A sense of progression in competitive play is what drives me to play games like Call of Duty. Also, i like how your "perk" suggestions for guardian and recon specialize the class to a role the player would like to adopt. (it's a shame that your striker suggestions don't have that same variety) Furthermore, i don't think this was mentioned but if you were able to switch said "perks" mid game, this would cause the match to constantly evolve and demand greater teamwork. (this environment is something the loadout system was supposed to create, in my opinion, but couldn't really achieve due to most players not having access to diversified set of gear)

Some suggestions: I know a main concern is that some of the proposed abilities could be a bit OP and nullify some weapons or tactics. The Remedy Field for guardians would be a concern. (one of my favorites though lol) The perk would shut down haze bomb users and their tactic to flood a cp with haze fields with little to no effort on the guardian's part. So what i suggest is for penalties to be attached the abilities or at least have penalties associated with higher point abilities. For example, the penalty associated with Remedy Field would either be a slower walking speed (shielded or un-shielded) or weaker shield (my reasoning is that this is a more "offensive" tactic and therefore some defense would be sacrificed) In all, the penalties will stop players from being an all encompassing bad-ass and become more strategic in their approach.

Lastly, just a silly suggestion. I believe a more appropriate term for the Striker ability Turbulence would be Slip Stream.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 08:58

#17

Orngeblu

lol

Just so you know, look where "Explosive Temper" is on Strikers abilities, and there is a typo: "removal of charge time increase for bombs."

Shouldn't that be "decrease"? :P

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 09:10

#18

Mohandar

ability point system

I like the idea of making it an Ability-Points based system. After trying a few lockdown games you unlock most of the abilities; after a few more you raise your AP capacity to maximum (the leveling process should be relatively short). I imagine a maximum AP of 6 or so, with a longer delay in the locker room before match start (like 20 seconds, so people can pick out their AP settings).

Here's another interesting one for Recon to cater to the ambush style: Going Dark (recon does not emit pulses)

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 09:11

#19

Rangerwillx

@Orngeblu

I thought like that as well, until I really thought about it.
It's a charge time increase. Striker INCREASES the charge for bombs, does it not?
It takes longer, to charge a bomb, thus increase.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 10:11

#20

Hmmnm

I agree with Negimasonic that

I agree with Negimasonic that Quick Feet is a overpowered.
How about replacing it with:

Speed Field: works the same way as Morale, except it boosts speed

By the way, since the cap is only 6 points, why bother making it a level up reward? I would suggest just giving everyone 6 points per class, and let players customize their class in the loadout section.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 10:24

#21

Slayzz

+1 Definitely. Absolutely

+1 Definitely. Absolutely fantastic idea. This would probably even out the classes to a point where people won't go all striker.

Though personally, I think striker class is fine. Here is why:
T2 Lockdown: I had a wolver set and a troika equipped. 6k DMG, highest on the board. A TROIKA. Two Star set. I tried it with recon too, and besides the asd, it did some nice damage with the death mark. I don't do guardian).(I could get a screenshot if wanted; and yes, there were the typical flourish dusters failing around.)

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 11:19

#22

Shidara

I'm not too concerned as far

I'm not too concerned as far as naming goes. Sure, we can work on improving them but I'm really just using them as placeholders. As for your suggestion of renaming Trained arm to Assassin, it would make more sense if you got an increase in attack speed rather than simply removing the decrease.

I see your concern regarding segregation, Negimasonic, and you have a valid point. It's not easy to please everyone.
As for Quick Feet, I'll regard your concern and remove it from the list.
I thought up Radar feed with recons in mind as well. Having cloaked recons not show up on the enemy mini-map only makes sense and was what I was initially shooting for. The question remains whether or not the feature can be implemented to work that way.
I was also concerned regarding the penalty-removal perks, but I listed them so that people could at least voice their opinions on it. If they remain or not is up to you guys, but if one penalty-removal is denied, then so are the rest.

Demonicsothe, I was thinking of the latter, but requiring a lot of work to achieve the higher levels so that players won't be ranking up max level on the first day.
There is always going to be a certain combination that a lot of people will favour, this is inevitable. The only way to counter this is to create more perks that appeal to different people.
I'm not sure what you're on about when you mention 'Auras', as I don't really have a lot of of aura-esque perks listed.
Adding penalties to higher-value perks is a good idea to help balance things out. I'll see if there's anything I can come up with on my own.

I'm sorry my Striker abilities don't meet your expectations, Xainthejust, but it's a really tough class to come up with abilities for. I'd like some help to figure out what kind of abilities could become viable for Strikers.
As I mentioned above, I'll try to come up with penalties for higher-value perks, but I might need some help here as well.
As for your renaming suggestion, I kinda prefer Turbulence because it makes me think of Sonic Riders and how turbulence helps you catch up to opponents ahead of you. :)

Sounds like a nifty ability, Mohandar, but allowing you to remain completely unnoticed by the enemy seems a bit overpowered. Instead, you can have a reduced pulse radius, but removing it altogether seems like a bit much.

Updating the OP in a bit.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 12:12

#23

Fabispieler

I'm happy that you don't work

I'm happy that you don't work for Three Rings. We don't need another crappy level system like other cheap games have. Three Rings did great work!

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 12:16

#24

Negimasonic

mm, well you don't have to

mm, well you don't have to remove a suggestion I don't think unless like everyone disagrees with it, it's too early to tell. I just personally see it as overpowered. Someone else might come through with a reasonable suggestion about why it isn't.

That and the fact like you said, it is hard to come up with abilities for the striker class, so even if it's a bad ability, you want to leave it up there just so it looks like this suggestion is more balanced XD

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 12:45

#25

Giannii

- Turbulence; increases

- Turbulence; increases team-mates' movement speed for a short period of time if they walk into your boosting trail. 1 pt.
I like this one

- Quick feet; increased movement speed. 1 pt.
meh it already has the boost if you increase their speed then why do they have a boost anyway

- Extra fuel tank; increased Boost gauge. 3 pts.
this ones a passive skill, which means could be better, unless many parallel uses for the gauge are introduced, right now its only for speed

- Prey; defeated players drop more hearts. 3 pts.
idea sounds cool enough to me

- *Morale; increases team attack power when standing on a control point that belongs to your team. 2 pt.
not sure

- Explosive temper; reduced bomb charge time (removal of charge time increase for bombs.) 3 pts.
another passive

Strikers... What about this:
Supercharge:
Boost power accelerates weapon charge, cant move while in use.
Basically this does the same as explosive temper and more (since it would charge guns and swords as well), but it has the drawback of consuming your boost power. Im imagining a rather good boost to charge speeds (overriding uv level altogether) since you are making your stand right there (you cant move, and are using up your gauge so your scape possibilities are lowered). To activate you just charge while holding the boost.

If you wanted to increase teamplay you could make it a team aura instead, you still stand still, but drain faster, and speed up whatever you want, doesn't have to be just charge times.

copying cod: Martyrdom:
Drops random live bomb from loadout on defeat.
Alternatively, only drops it if you have it active but then I dont expect to be too useful.
This one would make strikers bring bombs to their loadout which isn't the best idea I guess, lol

Hologram:
Create an hologram of you that follows your movements. Costs entire power gauge. Hologram disappears on hit.
Alt. Hologram lasts x seconds.
Alt. Hologram is an extension of yourself actually so it does damage, but also takes it and that hurts you (see Recettear's thief adventurer)
Alt. Not only takes damage, but you may hit yourself :P
Might be too much or not, it gives them another way to play skill/mind games. That's why I include it.

Each alternative keeps it the same but in a different way. If you have played Recettear you'll know that the clone is very useful to do damage but its tricky to use at first at least, I'd imagine something that works pretty much like that (spawns at a cardinal direction only, no collision, etc).
I like the last alternative since you double your damage abilities but you restrict yourself from attacking in two directions (from clone to yourself, and from yourself to clone) unless you dont mind losing the hp. Also each clone should have its own invincibility frames, because if they share it then the drawback is not a big one. The hologram could stay for the recon as a way to offer a bait to enemies (as the hologram wouldn't cloak).

Lifesteal
Recover hp after defeating an enemy.
Basically as dropping hearts except you dont have to pick them up. Dont like it too much, but fits the class.

Pick off the weak
Replenishes gauge after defeating an enemy below x% hp
My idea is to encourage strikers to focus on finishing off enemies rather than doing the initial damage. That would make them run away from the battle to catch up to those that flee. But maybe this is better for recons?

For Recon:
Laser tripwire
Raises alert of enemies that cross it.
You place it on a wall and any enemy that crosses it raises an alarm on the map. Could be used to catch other Recons or whoever decides to cross it.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 12:42

#26

Shidara

@Fabispieler

If you have nothing to contribute to the topic then you shouldn't have posted in the first place.
Further spamming my topic with insults and I'll have to get authorities involved.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 19:00

#27

Neodasus

@xainFor the sake of

@xain
For the sake of balance, it should be locked before the game starts. A perk menu should pop up once entering krogmo lobby, and should give you a set amount of time (presumably until the game starts) to set and re-arrange perks. After that time is up, you would have to wait until the next time you enter krogmo's lobby

@nemiga

well to us guild vs guild players, that option is extremely important to us, as we would like to retain some level of balance in guild matches

the option to use perks will probably be favored by many random casual players, as it will make games easier and faster

so having that option to disable perks in random searches (maybe OOO should add a filter) is almost invaluable to a small (but still important!) demographic of LD players

edit: also, the fact that this topic has not been moved to suggestions proves that admins do not read decent threads

oh by the way, radar feed should be a limited period of time (1 minute?), because if I knew where everyone was for the entire game, I would end up with 30 defends a game

Instead of a death mark, you would receive a sort of "radio" mark that the enemy would be able to see until duration runs out. This brings so many new tactics to recon, as now they KNOW they are always being watched

Here's something really important you should add to radar feed: making the progression from death mark to radio mark twice as long as the progression from warning mark to death mark

this makes it so that I can't radio mark everyone at once, and anyone who is familiar with the timing of death mark will run before being hit with a radio mark

also for anyone who plays recon, this is probably the most valuable perk up there, as you will be able to see key players and where they are positioned for a solid minute (Imagine if you could see a striker who is completely dominating in damage, and kill him before he reaches a certain point to support his team)

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:32

#28

Demonicsothe

By aura, I meant similar to

By aura, I meant similar to guardian shield. Say, a speed boost for everyone in a certain range. A low percentage, or a really low flat rate.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 05:57

#29

Hadn

I have a feeling this would

I have a feeling this would just become unbalanced, as the people that play the most / play the best would become even better with these perks making it harder for the lesser skilled / frequent players to enjoy the game.

I like the ideas of the perks, perhaps not on a levelling system though. I think it would work if there was a system where you would only play against similar players based on the level of their "classes".

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 06:18

#30

Eldibs

Not trying to be mean...

Two things...

One, this belongs in the Suggestions forum, since it is a suggestion.

Two, while this does sound like it could be fun, you do realize how much effort this would take for OOO to implement, right? I don't mean to offend, but this would be a LOT of programming work, followed by a LOT of testing, and OOO is not a large design team by any stretch of the imagination. After all, consider the time between the release of the Shadow Lairs, and the (upcoming) release of the Mission system. Remember - game design and testing takes time and effort.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 08:13

#31

Neodasus

We're just putting the idea

We're just putting the idea out there for OOO to consider.

Also, like I said earlier, they don't even bother to read threads like this...still in general discussion

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 17:30

#32

Fabispieler

@Shidara At first: Instantly

@Shidara At first: Instantly calling the bosses (gamemasters) to change my opinion is a bad idea (it remembers me when young pupils go to teachers because of small funny problems, lol), and if you can't accept other peoples opinions then you should leave the forum, because there are always people with different opinions. And I don't see any insult words in my text, if you feel that I attacked you by saying my opinion, then... ok, I don't know, you have an opinion like everyone else too.
I see that your idea isn't bad, but instead of a new level system I would like to see changeable "mini"equipment (NOT like in Team Fortress 2 where you have to "find" it by random or with real-world money -.-) or more classes. When I see when other companies announcing their games and write "with the new server, everyone starts with the same level" then I think "thank god that Spiral Knights has not a level system like other games have", and with your idea Spiral Knights would get a "modified copy" of a level system that other games use. Or for example, the thing with the EU server. Three Rings did really a great job, in other games the players are splitted to different servers, and if you want to visit other server parts then you need to create a whole new character. Here in Spiral Knights you can just join friends in groups. I have quitted maaany games in the past because the only goal was "level yourself non-stop to level 999 or other players will always be better than you". Maybe you understand me now :P At Spiral Knights you only need to level-up your equipment to level 10, and then you can play in peace, and that's what I love in Spiral Knights. :) And I only want to defend this great game from things that I hate at other games. And by the way, I'm sad that my nice idea gets ignored: http://forums.spiralknights.com/de/node/39691

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 17:35

#33

Demonicsothe

There you go, constructive

There you go, constructive criticism isn't hard to find.

Although, this thread isn't a "QQ class imba gm plz change i haz ideas" thread. This is a discussion, with legit back and forth on how some ideas can and can't work. Not exactly a "nerf this" or "buff this".

Note that many of such "level ups" in this thread is trending towards having a max, that most people can reach within weeks. The idea of a upgrade per match basis is still out there too.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 18:50

#34

Exileddread

I'd have to say I'm against

I'd have to say I'm against this. I like change but, like Hadn said, this would probably create even more imbalances for good players to take advantage of. The more combat features a game has the more effort it takes to balance it. If OOO decides to start working on balancing then I would be all for this idea.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 18:56

#35

Jonathansiu

How about Point System Reset?

How about Point System Reset? Having the system constantly being resetted may as well keep the ball moving, not the best players always at the top of the hierarchy. The period could be weekly, bi-weekly or monthly.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 19:04

#36

Neodasus

status immunity should not

status immunity should not cover swords or guns that deal status

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 19:19

#37

Draycos

To all the people saying that

To all the people saying that this will break the game even more because players who play the most will be at an advantage- I have two words for you, yes, just two words.

Level brackets.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 19:31

#38

Negimasonic

...and that will still create

...and that will still create segregation among the already sparse population again.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 20:30

#39

Neodasus

and nothing of value was lost

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 20:39

#40

Negimasonic

and many more match delays to

and many more match delays to be gained.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 23:31

#41

Draycos

Solution: Make all types of

Solution: Make all types of gear work on the same degree, except keeping their bonuses, and remove the tier brackets (for this mode only!). IE, Dusker has the same level of defense as Skolver, but doesn't have it's Medium damage bonus. Defense types on armor wouldn't be identical (IE, an Elemental Hood having Shadow and Piercing defense alongside Normal and Elemental). Weapons would function much the same way, but keep their charge attacks.

In this way, everyone can play, but players farther through the game would still have a slight advantage.

Mon, 01/23/2012 - 13:20

#42

Shidara

So, what do we have?

Fabispieler, because of the fact that you completely missed the point of the thread I'm not even going to read your post past the second line. Let me give you a few heads ups.
First, go up to the top and re-read the bottom of the OP.
• the bottom line is that I don't want to just hear "No, this will never work out"
• Add some thought into your post and review what you like or dislike.
• I want this to be a discussion topic, not a "shoot down the horrible suggestion!"
If you really don't have the time to invest 10 minutes into writing a constructive post, then I'm not even going to pay attention to what you have to say when you do. If those pointers of the OP are that hard to follow then I don't want you in my thread, period. Also, I wasn't going to "call out to a GM to change your opinion," because that is bogus. I will call out to the devs if you have no intention to give constructive criticism and spam my thread. Besides, I can't make this come true, only Three Rings will. Even if the idea is molded into perfection, the devs still hold the final say on whether or not it is to be implemented, so why not help out if there's no guarantee it'll even be passed on?

Eldibs, I know how the forums work, and there is no way I'd be able to invoke a discussion by dumping this in Suggestions. The players I seek attention from are mostly in General Discussion, and I am free to use and abuse this to my leisure as long as it falls within the ToC. Second, I realize this would require time and effort in both development and testing and it really doesn't take a genius to figure that out. I'm fairly sure that Three Rings can figure out on their own whether or not this is worth trying out without having their customers speak for them.

Anyways, I apologize for neglecting the topic for a while, but let's see what we've got here...
I missed out on Hmmnm's and Giannii's post earlier, oh noes! Let's have a look here...

Hmmnm suggested a speed-up field that raises movement speed of allies. I like this idea, and I can see this working out in several ways. One way is working the way Morale does, but Morale only moves within a control point that belongs to your team. Did you suggest this with the same intention or an activation-based temporary effect or a permanent effect?

Giannii's first suggestion, Supercharge, involves charging whilst shielding, a mechanic we currently do not have (although you can skip the attack animation if you hold attack whilst shielding). I like the idea of a sped-up charge, but when you say movement is halted, does this count for the duration of the charge, or until the charge has been unleashed? I can't say much else until this has been answered.
Martyrdom sounds interesting, and I can see it having a use. At first, I was opposed to the idea, but when I think about it I'm starting to like the concept... It will, however, encourage Strikers to carry bombs, which really isn't the most effective weapon for a gunslinger or a swordsman. I'll list it, though.
The Hologram ability sounds like a flat down bad idea considering the fast-paced battles, and having two hitboxes is going to get you killed very quickly, especially considering you sacrifice your boost-gauge for this. I don't think this ability is suited for Spiral Knights.
Lifesteal is pretty much Prey, but a personal ability. I'm not too sure about this one unless you can convince me otherwise.
Pick off the weak could either be extremely useful, or insignificant depending on how much of the gauge is restored upon K.O.ing an opponent. Also, would it count for all K.O.s, or only against players below x HP?
I can only see Laser tripwire work if you have a limited supply (one or two) and can be destroyed by the opposing team. Limited range (~5 tiles?) and invisible until damaged works. I'll list it in a few to see how it is received.

I really like Jonathansiu's idea of resetting on a weekly basis (to go with the Leaderboards) proving the perks aren't too hard, nor too easy to unlock. I kind of want an unlocking-period because I want the stronger perks to be earned. Although, resetting on a weekly basis might prove to be too short a time for those who don't really have enough time to invest in the game to unlock the higher perks, thus shutting them out. I want this to be a system everyone can benefit from so if progression is a hopeless concept then we'll scrap it, proving we can't work around it. I'd like some input regarding this issue.

I'm not sure if I like Draycos' tier-removal mode, but if you're willing to explain in-depth how this work I'll gladly take it into consideration. The idea sounds interesting enough on its own.

Think this is all for now. Updating the OP momentarily.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 14:25

#43

Shidara

Page 4 doesn't contain all

Page 4 doesn't contain all that much traffic, so let's see if page 1 will help some...
Can't structure this on my own, people. One man cannot speak for a thousand.

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