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Item balance suggestions!

12 replies [Last post]
Sat, 01/21/2012 - 04:45
Round-Shinigami's picture
Round-Shinigami

My suggestions regarding item balancing can be found below.

1. Swiftstrike buckler:
Problem: in firestorm citadel this shield simply shatters from 1-2 hits (2 from zombie swings, 1 from traps or vana swings or trojan attacks). Simply speaking its almost as bad as not having a shield.
My suggestion is:
4-star variant, 5-star variant of that same shield with same or stronger bonus to attack speed on all weapons, but increased protection vs normal damage, plus increased health. It should be weaker compared to other 5-star shields, but currently its way too weak.
Has already been suggested, but never implemented. Currently I'm using swiftstrike myself for vanaduke runs (gunner/swordsman combo).

2. Plague needle:
Currently its one of the hardest to obtain items in the game - recipe for plague needle costs 150 krogmo coins, which is very hard to obtain if you don't play lockdown/blast network. And you need 4-star and 3-star recipes as well. After obtaining this very rare item you'll find out that... its 30% weaker than blitz! According to wiki, that is.
Lets calculate damage with 4x blitz vs 3x blitz + 1x plague. Shooting... undead. Example is simple, numbers are from wiki:
4x blitz = 4x 1815 = 7260
3x blitz + 1x plague = 3x 1815 + 1170 = 6615
But wait, you'll say, plague does poison! So lets re-calculate insanely lucky variant, where 1st bullet does poison and that poison is calculated towards increased damage:
3x blitz + 1x plague = 3x 1815*1.1 + 1170*1.1 = 6615*1.1 = 7276
Basically, if you're super lucky and all 4 players are using guns to shoot that poor undead, you'll do exactly SAME damage with both blitz and plague needle. And if there are less than 4 shooters, you ask? Then you'll lose a portion of damage!
Basically, the problem with plague needle is that its damage is lower than Blitz. When all 4 players benefit from poison, total damage will be equal to that of 4 blitzes.

Simply speaking, plague needle is a victim of poor weapon balancing.

My suggestions:
a) match damage of Plague Needle to that of Blitz Needle. Or at least shorten the difference to 5%. So that poisoned enemy would take more damage from this gun compared to "normal" blitz. This way people will benefit from having at least one person with plague needle in the party. It will be wanted.
b) increase extra damage from poison to 30% so that having blitz/plague combination would be worth the effort, same as using any poison weapon.
c) any combination of a and b
d) make plague needle shoot more needles
e) add another status effect on top of poison, for example: stun

3. Med damage bonus to gunslinger armor with damage bonus. 5* armor with low damage bonus is just sad - swords all have med damage, med asi bonus, gunslingers only get med undead or med asi, but low damage (which is weird, IMO).

4. High bonus on trinkets. It would be nice to have a better bonus from them :)

5. Upgrade-able UVs. Just make it expensive to upgrade a UV one level, and it should require an existing UV of some level (med) and it should be possible to upgrade only once (if you want it "balanced" instead of having everyone run with same vh/max UVs).

6. Replace damage bonus vs enemy with damage bonus using element. For example: instead of having damage bonus VS Beast, add Low-Very High "extra piercing damage". Should be only one of 3 non-normal damage types (extra shadow, extra piercing, extra elemental damage). This bonus should be stack-able with general damage bonus, for example, from armor/trinket.

7. Pure piercing 6-bullet gun. Same good old antigua but without ele/shadow damage. So I can finally solo vanaduke.

8. Reload!
Force players to reload when they empty their magazine! For example: with silversix you have to shoot 6 times before reload takes place, but if you don't shoot all 6 in a row, but shoot 5, make a small pause, shoot 5, you'll never have to reload! Same with any gun, 2-3 bullet guns included. I can shoot my Nova Driver infinitely without having to reload by just shooting a bit less frequently.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 06:22
#1
Mastersleet-Alt's picture
Mastersleet-Alt
I agree

I AGREE

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 09:18
#2
Melisan's picture
Melisan
Where to begin... Ok swift

Where to begin...
Ok swift strike don't take it into FSC unless you are good enough to not have to block, a 4* or 5* Would be to over powered.
Plague needle is too hard to get if you don't play lockdown. Maybe this is to encourage people to play lockdown? And even if you suck at it, it doesn't take all that long.
High bonus trinkets would make people far over powered and armour, shield, and helmet choices would be less important. (I roll with a skolver coat, snarb helm and barbarous thorn shield + 2 CTR med trinkets giving me MAX damage + MAX CTR)
Upgradeable UV's would break the economy.
Replacing the damage vs. beast to extra pierce would make some weapons far to powerful and remove the use of others completely.
"Pure piercing 6-bullet gun. Same good old Antigua but without ele/shadow damage. So I can finally solo vanaduke." - Right just realised the point of your entire thread, you want super overpowered weapons with no thought of balance just to make your life easier........sigh.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 09:27
#3
Chris's picture
Chris
OOO is trying to make money

OOO is trying to make money to combat the growing f2p population. All of your suggestions would make them lose money in some way.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 11:44
#4
Severage's picture
Severage
Response.

3. Definitely +1.

4. I disagree with this. Lockdown is already overrun by Trinkets and they are arguably game-deciders. Especially on Strikers.

5. Uh no. The fact that they made UVs buyable in the first place was, IMO, only for another crown sink. To make them buyable then upgradeable would either have to cost like 200K Crowns for 1 UV, 500K Crowns for 2 UVs, and 1.5M Crowns for 3 UVs (Basically nobody would use it unless they had a VH already), or there'd be some real issues.

6. The problem with this is that the game is already "balanced" as far as these are concerned. Changing them now would require a lot of rebalancing and hotfixes.

7. Right. There's a reason it is what it is. Pierce/Elemental(Shadow) makes it weak on everything. Until you get to T3, a Peacemaker is weak on Beast and even constructs. Well, they didn't do that on accident. It's a balance mechanic.

PS: Chris! Who let you in here!

~Sev

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 12:02
#5
Ewbte's picture
Ewbte
-1

Way too powerful. I disagree

There's a lot of better balanced suggestions about all that you listed here.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 17:59
#6
Round-Shinigami's picture
Round-Shinigami
Ewbte Super balance

Ewbte
Super balance suggestion just for you: lets remove UVs on unbind :)

Melisan
Lockdown - I don't play lockdown much. On average its up to 5 games a week. For the recipes I'll need to play 150-300 games (150 coins for 5* + 100 coins for 4* + 50 coins for 3*, win = 2 coins, loss = 1 coin). So to play 225 games (average) I'll need ... around a year (45 weeks, 315 days). Sure, you could get hardcore and make it 10 games a day (more than 1 hour on games, more than half an hour on waiting, I'd say 2 hours on lockdown daily) just to get Plague needle, the gun that loses in damage to Blitz Needle, standard gun that is easy to acquire.
Thanks but no thanks, I won't play lockdown to get Plague needle.
As for promoting Lockdown - personally I come into spiral knights to play clockworks, lockdown is just a side dish.

About swiftstrike buckler: most of the time my shield doesn't break but there are those times I'd appreciate if it was just a bit more survive-able. How would it make anyone overpowered? Or you think having a DA with CTR MAX + ASI VH + Damage MAX is overpowered? I have that, am I overpowered?

High trinkets would certainly bring a lot of changes to the game. But they did bring trinkets in the first place, didn't they? Aren't med trinkets overpowered?

"Upgradeable UV's would break the economy."
Please explain how it would break economy. As I said, make it upgrade only 1 level if you're afraid of abuse. And only to existing UVs.

"Replacing the damage vs. beast to extra pierce would make some weapons far to powerful and remove the use of others completely."
Again, please explain in detail with real-world examples, charts and diagrams. I want numbers, not emotions.
My reasoning behind it: most of the time I have MAX damage bonus to my swords. So having a damage bonus vs family is completely useless (it doesn't affect my max, and it goesn't go beyond max). So they're, like, completely pointless. On swords, at least. I'd appreciate a fiend damage bonus on blitz needle, though. But it would make my gun more powerful only vs fiends, not beasts. Which is weird, at least to me.

Reasoning behind antigua line of guns:
a) there are discussions to make them pure elemental, pure shadow guns, so its only reasonable to make pure piercing insta-hit gun to hunt beasts and fiends.
b) is there any other gun to solo vanaduke with? Autogun leaves you vulnerable for extended periods of time, magnus guns take too much time (2 shots before reload, so 1 shot at a time), polaris is weak vs vanaduke (30 minutes on one enemy is not my definition of "fun").

Added 8-th suggestion to balance "overpowered antigua" with pure piercing damage.

And yeah, I want to make my life easier. Anything wrong with that?

Chris
Combating f2p is simple: offer p2p something f2p can't have in any way. Something you'd want. Something that is bound to their account and expires periodically. Like ele pass.

Severage
5. I'm fine with 200k cr to upgrade my High CTR shivermist buster into VH CTR shivermist buster.
6. If "balanced" is equal to "useless" then I agree completely. They're "balanced". I have max damage bonus for swords always thanks to armor + shield when I use sword. So damage bonus on my swords is a very "balanced" UV. Not so balanced for guns though, a CTR VH + Fiend VH would still make a difference for Autogun. But be honest: when was the last time you saw THAT? Ever?
7. If it was intentional to make these guns useless vs anyone, why would there be talks about making them pure shadow/pure elemental in the first place? I bet they were supposed to be best guns (you have to kill jelly 7 times to get them, after all) - powerful vs 2 families of enemies at the same time, thanks to two damage types. But instead they are weak vs any monsters. And I believe this wasn't intetional.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 03:50
#7
Melisan's picture
Melisan
Your posts are so full of

Your posts are so full of contradiction, there is no point highlighting them and discussing them rationally with someone who will not listen.
If you want something in life you have to work for it.
/end thread

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 04:28
#8
Round-Shinigami's picture
Round-Shinigami
Melisan Translation: TL;DR. W

Melisan
Translation:
TL;DR.
Why do you reply then?

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 04:38
#9
Melisan's picture
Melisan
I did read your post, and how

I did read your post, and how dare you presume to "translate" what i wrote? Maybe you should work on one suggestion at a time; you may be able to look at them objectively.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 06:10
#10
Round-Shinigami's picture
Round-Shinigami
One question at a time: Do

One question at a time:
Do you believe that Plague Needle is a well-balanced weapon, considering difficulty of obtaining its recipes, its damage compared to Blitz Needle?

After you answer the question, I have a second one:
Please agree/disagree and explain your choice:
a) current variety of weapons, armors, shields, bombs and guns covers every area, every protection combination, every damage combination in any way possible, thus there is absolutely no need for new weapons, armors, equipment.
b) current weapons and armors are perfectly balanced, their protection combinations are perfectly balanced, there is no need to make any changes to any equipment.
c) (this one is tricky, and a bit out of scope of research, you can skip it if you like) we absolutely need more accessories!

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 10:48
#11
Melisan's picture
Melisan
The point is to make a

The point is to make a suggestion. Please move this question to the arsenal.
Then state your opinion on how the plague needle could be changed so that we can discuss it.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 20:57
#12
Round-Shinigami's picture
Round-Shinigami
Melisan Hmm... I'll do it

Melisan
Hmm... I'll do it otherwise: I'll move current topic to graveyard and make a separate topic in arsenal to keep it clean.

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