Spiral Knights - Do you feel that recons getting hits on people without warning is balanced?

Do you feel that recons getting hits on people without warning is balanced?

45 replies [Last post]

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 19:46

Jontlemen

Personally, I feel it is a bit unfair, even if it's only a split second of the mark, you should have chance to defend yourself.

I know recon doesn't see a whole bunch of use due to it being very punishing, strikers having more utility, and a variety of other reasons, but these should not be offset by unbalanced and unfair game mechanics.

I think you should get the warning the moment you enter a recon's radius and still have the pulse to bring about the death mark, but increase the pulse's speed to help offset the earlier warning.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 19:51

Softhead

But...

Is it fair that snarble/flourishes are annoying or there is no pure pierce defence?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 19:54

Jontlemen

There's plenty other

There's plenty other imbalance in LD for sure, but like I said, they should not be offset by other unbalanced and unfair game mechanics.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:09

Tengu

there is defense. Ton of it.

if you're a striker, and you see a "!", run in a direction until the "!" goes away.

If you're a recon and see a "!", go invisible and walk in a different direction. continue to keep the mark above you until the other recon, who's been using his power longer than you, goes visible, then kill him.

if you're a guardian and you see a "!", shield up and wait for them to strike you out of frustration, then you gut them.

there. it's all solved for ya.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:14

Jontlemen

But I have been hit by recons

But I have been hit by recons many times with no "!" ever appearing.
That's the issue I'm discussing here, whether or not that is fair and balanced.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:23

Neodasus

feels good man

let it flow through you mmm yes I'm getting high off your butthurt man oh yeah

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:21

Demonicsothe

They could've cloaked right

They could've cloaked right before getting in range. Or pegged you outside the range with a gun.

Otherwise its a bug and you should report it

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:24

Neodasus

I just finished a game with

I just finished a game with everyone complaining how recons are unbalanced. GREAT FEELS EVERYWHERE.

I'm sick of strikers getting recognition when recons are looked upon as "useless class be a guardian instead"

man forget those guys GRAN FAUST TO THE FACE

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:28

Jontlemen

@Neodasus lol oh

@Neodasus
lol oh you

@Demonicsothe
I'm pretty sure they didn't cloak right before getting in range and usually they hit me with a GF combo :(

It's not a bug per se, but just how the game mechanics work. The radar pulse is what causes the ! warnings and death mark depending on how many times they sweep an opponent. If you time it right, you can approach an opponent without the pulse ever hitting them and giving them no warning.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:36

Demonicsothe

Then thats called skills.

Then thats called skills. Like how come guardians are claimed to be able to nullify damage without losing specs bar, by timing the shield activation.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:39

#10

Gwenyvier

What the OP is talking about

What the OP is talking about is the fact that a good Recon can get within striking distance before the "!" shows up above their target's head. It is because "While invisible, you project a "pulse" every few seconds that will give a "Recon Mark" status effect to any enemy it hits". The mark is not given upon entering the field, but after the pulse any opponent's in the field.

The "pulse" is actually the radar-like line that goes around the inside of the Recon's field. If it touches an enemy then they get a mark. If you know what you are doing you can pull the timing so that you can attack without the mark showing up.

It is no more "unfair/unbalanced" then a Striker rushing in from the bottom of your screen and dishing out a GF/DA combo (or better, a Glacius charge) to your face for no other reason then they could see you but you couldn't see them due to camera angles. It is just using what you have available, and is actually one of the harder Recon tricks to pull off.

~Gwen

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:41

#11

Jontlemen

Even if a game mechanic takes

Even if a game mechanic takes a modicum of skill to accomplish, it can still be unbalanced.

I've never heard of the guardian thing before.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:44

#12

Neodasus

the recon pulse works like a

the recon pulse works like a bomb would, when it maxes out the pulse starts to emit if they touch the line

due to the mechanics of the pulse it takes alot of timing and observation

thread over

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:48

#13

Demonicsothe

Skill equals imba? Ill quote

Skill equals imba?

Ill quote neodasus.

Thread over

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 21:08

#14

Psychodestroyer

It's not unbalanced.

Thats what makes the recon special. It can do that.

However, it's slow, and if it's cloak breaks around enemy strikers....

...

It's screwed.

But really, current classes are fine. I don't complain when seemingly get one-shotted by a GF or can't break a guardians shield.

Work with what you're given buddy.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 21:29

#15

Jontlemen

lol, having almost never

lol, having almost never played recon, I just jumped into some games to see how difficult it was

Granted, it is situational (need someone on a point who doesn't know you're there and isn't fighting an ally), but it wasn't difficult at all, just stand at the edge of the radius wait for the pulse to point at the enemy and then approach. I was able to pull it off several times.

heck, I only have gunslinger armor, trinkets, and UVs, I would have been two shotting people easily had I actually had equipment complimenting my GF

Just another unbalance to throw on the pile as far as I'm concerned.

While the full radius shouldn't trigger a warning, there should definitely be one at half or 3/4 the radius.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 21:30

#16

Traevelliath

Sneaky Snarby!

As one who goes full snarby armor and recon...

Recon really rewards people who can evade getting hit. Guns or hit and run strikes. The problem is, once you have found the recon, said recon is practically screwed. The only way Recons survive without their cloak is because they have more health than a Striker.

By extension, calling Recons cheap for being able to vanish, hit and vanish is like calling Strikers cheap for being too fast, or calling Guardians cheap for being too good at defending

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 21:37

#17

Jontlemen

I'm not calling recons cheap

I'm not calling recons cheap for being able to vanish, but being able to hit people with no warning.

I understand recons wanting to defend this unfairness though, strikers constantly canceling out the first swing of their flourish, polaris spam, and having cloak completely drain after a single hit are also unbalanced and are extremely detrimental to them.

If and when OOO gets around to fixing the various balance issues, those should take a higher priority than this.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 21:43

#18

Demonicsothe

By that idea, strikers with

By that idea, strikers with pokey weapons can argue no nerfs are required, because the unfairness in speed is countered by the hp loss.

Don't call it unfair. Thats the same as crying. And how many recons do you see in a game? As compared to strikes with pokey weapons?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 21:57

#19

Jontlemen

What are you even going on

What are you even going on about?
What you just said made no sense.

Recons can exploit a mechanic that is unfair and almost unavoidable, just because there are a multitude of other, more prevalent, balance issues, doesn't mean it should be ignored.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 22:20

#20

Negimasonic

hahaha...recons unfair... I'm

hahaha...recons unfair... I'm pretty sure I've seen you shoot as a striker gunner Jontlemen, you don't know what broken is lol. Look in a mirror :P

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 22:24

#21

Demonicsothe

Strikes are faster,

Strikes are faster, effectively doing the same thing as a recon. Hitting you, getting out, you can't even touch him. Oh, and an asi built into the class.

Mechanic? Check.
Unavoidable? Check.
Abused? Check.

See what I did there?

I'm saying, don't call it unfair. You come across as a whiny kid who wants something done, because you suffered in some way.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 22:40

#22

Neodasus

man I don't even know if this

man I don't even know if this thread is a joke because when I played jontlemen the last few times he messed me up SO BAD not even gonna lie

Ok I'll just sneak over here and...

Polaris
Voltech alchemer
Argent Peacemaker

rage

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 22:52

#23

Jontlemen

@NegimasonicWow, ad hominem

@Negimasonic
Wow, ad hominem and strawman! I'm not saying recons as a whole are unfair (they need small buffs and striker users could use some nerfs), there is a game mechanic they can exploit that I feel isn't fair.

@Demon
Strikers aren't unavoidable, you can cloak, shield, or run away when you see them coming towards you, while I agree it is a little unfair when they dash from below with very little warning, you can still hear and see them coming.

How am I being childish!?
When told it was difficult to do I actually challenged that myself and tried it out in game (it wasn't that hard).
I am trying to level with recons as many weapons, and game mechanics work against them and should be changed, and understand that they don't have a lot going for them, but it is still unfair to get damage with no warning.

Meanwhile, my arguments have constantly been misrepresented, and pretty much the only reasoning I've been given in defense of this ability is that there are other unfair issues in the game too.
Two wrongs do not make a right.

I'm not insulting recons who use this, I am just trying to see if people think it is fair or not.

@Neo
I try not to use polaris most of the time because it is so unfair (and boring), only breaking it out when Bombheads are up for grabs or we are getting steamrolled (and even then not very often).

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 00:21

#24

Blaze-Breaker

Judging from the fact that

Judging from the fact that Strikers are probably the most played class in LD, I don't think they need buffs.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 00:59

#25

Tuhui

How is the class that is

How is the class that is supposed to be sneaky and unoticed sneaking up on someone unfair?

P.S. wait you actualy have to plan stuff like that, i just charge in and i usually kill people just by going up to them without thinking about it and i usually kill people

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 01:19

#26

Tengu

What's unfair is shock Max.

What's unfair is shock Max. In one game a pile of these ubersneaky recons with their OP skills zergrushed lil old me in guardian with a VT. I racked up 14k damage that game on one cap point and some midfield skirmishes. Now...all this shock UV is ruining my rights as a player to kill them, so I'm back down to 4k or so. UNFAIR AND OP.

I'm on wifi so I have latency problems. I'm sure then when you see players who are obviously reacting slower than you, you take the high road and aim for another fast player. If not REBALANCE ITS OP

Also, I applaud you for calling out fallacies from your own precarious perch. There's nothing that'll make people see your way more than using some college survey class education on them.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 01:27

#27

Negimasonic

Tengu, join the stun club,

Tengu, join the stun club, it's still fun :D Bonus points if they happen to be vog, might be able to get some shivermist joy. Rare, but oh so incredibly satisfying, no need to even kill them if you get like 3 of them. Though someone else always does >_>

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 01:40

#28

Jontlemen

@Blaze-Breaker I agree, but I

@Blaze-Breaker
I agree, but I am not proposing any buffs to strikers.

@Tuhui
"How is the class that is supposed to be sneaky and unoticed sneaking up on someone unfair?"
Well, using that logic, why not do away with the radar pulse altogether?
Why not make them intangible and invulnerable unless they are uncloaked, oh! and infinite cloak? I mean, they're the sneaky, unnoticed class right, these ideas would definitely help with that!

"P.S. wait you actualy have to plan stuff like that, i just charge in and i usually kill people just by going up to them without thinking about it and i usually kill people"
Just because something takes a little amount of forethought and strategy("Wow, a guy capturing a point while standing mostly still! I'll just sneak up to him and hit him with no warning!" isn't exactly rocket science) doesn't make it balanced

@Tengu
Thanks

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 01:48

#29

Tennis

---

These are just some tips.

1. Never stand still.
2. While capping, pay attention to the colored ring reaching the outside circle. If the ring stops moving, that means an enemy is standing on it.
3. Swing a sword or shoot a gun around.

That last one should be easy for you.
From what I've seen and heard, you're a gunner.
And a smart gunner is a recon's worst nightmare.

Just spam that Argent Peacemaker. ^^

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 01:51

#30

Noomad

hmm

I agree with the rest of the consensus of this thread, in that it's definitely a fair tactic to use. I mean, if they try to cloak and run away after hitting you and you hit them back, they can't cloak for long enough for you to kill them if you're playing striker. If you're guardian, Iunno, walk it off or something. You should always be wary of cloaked recons running around. I'm always amused when I walk into one, because the first thought is always 'ahh lagspike noo! Wait, I bet that was a recon instead!'

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 02:31

#31

Kupoo

You keep using that word

You keep throwing the word "balance" around, but... how, exactly, does that make the recon ability "unbalanced"? Does it clearly outclass the benefits of being a Striker or a Guardian? Is being able to perform a sneak attack on one player somehow more advantageous than being able to stab someone's face at super speed? Thus far, you've mostly been sidestepping constant comparisons to the Striker class. But if you don't compare the two, how could you possibly say that something is balanced or not balanced? It's as if you're talking about Recon vs. someone who has no Lockdown shield powers of their own - there's no sense in saying "balance" if there's nothing to balance it with.

What have we seen in Lockdown? A dominance of Strikers shredding everything apart, no? Then how is the recon cloak unbalanced compared to what is out there? If it were as "unfair" as you claim, then why are there so many more Strikers?

"How is the class that is supposed to be sneaky and unoticed sneaking up on someone unfair?"
Well, using that logic, why not do away with the radar pulse altogether?
Why not make them intangible and invulnerable unless they are uncloaked, oh! and infinite cloak? I mean, they're the sneaky, unnoticed class right, these ideas would definitely help with that!

"While we're at it, let's make the Guardian class have infinite shielding ability! I mean, they're the vigilant, protective class right, these ideas would definitely help with that!" Clearly, this point proves that Guardians are unbalanced.

Really, is that the kind of argument you're going with? That's not... I don't even have any idea where you were trying to go with that.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 02:28

#32

Psychodestroyer

Recons...

are FINE.

Like I said, their extra ability is balanced by the fact they have regular movement speed an no defensive capabilities BUT their cloak.

Being able to kill players without getting a scratch isn't unfair, that's just good skill. I've said this before, but as Striker in a Frostbite map, I managed to defend the enemy home CP for half the game, and didn't die until AFTER I left it, and I wasn't even chased out.

Not saying I have pro skill, I was just at peak performance that day. Well timed strikes and boosts got me almost no damage and allowed me to take down a guardian and a striker/recon team when they tried to overthrow me every time.

Sure, they catch you by surprise. But that's how it works. Thats what the Recon class was MADE to be. Invisible. Whats the point of a stealth cloak when everyone knows you're there? The recon Mark is a double edged sword, to help balance the Recon's invisibility, but not make it COMPLETELY pointless.

TL;DR: Recons are fine. The surprises are just part of the package.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 02:35

#33

Tuhui

The reason i win most of

The reason i win most of those battles is because i have gear that is made for doing that. The fact is i don't win some of the battles, just beacuse you have the jump on somebody does not gaurenty a win.

What was with the rant with the cloak? Made no sense to me.

P.S. The only solution to this "problem" would be making the radar indo an aura which would be easier to get death marks or what ever they are.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 02:47

#34

Redliaw

Ever seen a high dmg recon?

If it is so EASY to hit as a recon then why don't you see a 20k dmg recon or higher?
As a recon your lucky to get 10k dmg even with good ping and good equipment.

Does a sniper tells you where he is hidden before he shoots?

Is it fair that Strikers can hit you and run away then types in /laugh and come at you again?
Is it fair that Guardians can actually use infinite shield?

All the above requires skill... just as a recon tries to hit you silently.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 02:54

#35

Redliaw

Classes... Are super powers.... and you use them!

Recon...? Hidden and Dangerous!
Striker...? Faster Than Joo!
Guardian...? Tuff and Thick!

Every class is special. Every class has it's pros and cons. We recons hate strikers cuz your too fast. We recons hate battling Guardians because you just can't die.

It's SOOOO Unfair to us recons!

Oh and kudos to all those other recons defending this. :) You guys are great!

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 03:06

#36

Tuhui

I love when i beat a guardian

I love when i beat a guardian because i got him off guard and i had an asi sword mod so i could actualy counter his flourish/BTB.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 04:20

#37

Alice-In-Pyroland

Recons are considerably less

Recons are considerably less imbalanced than Strikers are, and this is coming from a Striker-main. In fact Recons are probably the most balanced class in terms of skill required, you need an awful lot more timing and precision to be a good Recon than you do Striker or Guardian. It's all well and good saying "they can hit you without warning" but if the timing isn't flawless any good Striker/Guardian will maul them immediately, that ability to strike out of the blue is precisely what lets good Recons keep up with the other classes. If they couldn't do that they'd never get the drop on anyone as any decent Striker can immediately locate them due to their mobility and Guardians are quite capable of reacting with force if they know the Recon is there in advance.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 10:28

#38

Paweu

OP has to be a troll, i mean,

OP has to be a troll, i mean, his nickname is a tribute to TF2's spy, he can't be serious.

@Neodasus

"Oh, i'm dumb so any non-english sounding nickname has to be some brasilian hueaheuahueahu, don't mind me, just being nationalist"

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 08:12

#39

Neodasus

@TennisDON'T EVEN JOKE ABOUT

@Tennis

DON'T EVEN JOKE ABOUT THAT ARGENT PEACEMAKER BRO

But yeah standing still is taboo

I still get my kills even if you move, because anyone can read movement. But yeah, it certainly helps for the inexperienced recons.

@Pawauewahuhuehuhehuehuehue (man whatever)

he's one of the best recon checkers in the game I think this thread is a joke

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 12:25

#40

Mysticbeam

im not sure if this has already been said,

coz i didnt read all the posts, but.....

recons are RECONS! there pretty much like assasins, and if their skilled enough, they call kill you w/o warning......like assasin! sheesh.

guardians are GUARDIANS! there supposed to be huge and bulky and tank-like! sheesh <_<

in the same way, strikers are .........actually i cant think of one for strikers :D

my 2cents :)

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 14:42

#41

Neodasus

pincushions with nitro?

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 14:43

#42

Traevelliath

Recons...

In pretty much every Spiral Knight Situation: Immobility = Death. Frozen Vanaduke (And by extension freeze immune Darkfire Vanaduke) are examples of such.

If you are standing still in Lockdown it is spectacularly easy for a Recon to slide in and jab you between the ribs for your stupidity. This is why I like fighting Guardians trying to cap a point as a Sneaky Snarby. I just spin around them while cloak, wait for their defenses to go away, and then randomly attack their back, slowly destroying their shield. When they start getting desperate and doing full combos, then they die :D.

However when a Striker is standing by himself on a point... UGH!!! Poke them once and they suddenly start spazzing out as if their tail suddenly caught on fire. When they just move erratically, it is near impossible for the Recon to catch them.

I'm going to stop using Spiral Knight references, and go to something mentioned before, TF2. Is the Sniper Class Balanced? He can kill you in one hit from across the map with no warning when you turn a corner. I say that is far more dangerous than a recon appearing and jabbing you once before going away.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 19:10

#43

Neodasus

actually I find strikers the

actually I find strikers the easiest to kill

After a gran faust strike, you can easily bounce them when they're locked in attack animation using a FF/BTB

it's very easy to do, especially if you are near the only escape routes so you can catch him running to heal

Mon, 01/23/2012 - 09:27

#44

Nordlead

Well, for starters, we should

Well, for starters, we should be asking for as much imbalance as possible, since that is what makes the game interesting. If everything was perfectly balanced, then there would be no reason to use one setup over another as all classes would be equals to each other. Each item should have its own unique advantage. Recons is the ability to strike unseen. Strikers can run you down and run to their own safety (and cap faster since they can get their faster). And Guardians are moving tanks that heal their teammates. Each one is unbalanced from the others.

A good LD team should have some of each group. If I can pair up with a guardian (as a recon) it makes it so much more effective since I can let them attack the guardian and then come in from behind for support. If I'm with a striker, then I death mark them and let the strikers do their thing.

I actually switched to recon because I couldn't compete with the strikers with good ASI and a flourish. I need every advantage I can get just to compete with them. So far I've managed to get a "yay I'm on nordlead's team" once since the previous game I managed to slaughter strikers left and right with my cloaking ability and even winning a few 3 on 1 situations, but it doesn't happen often. Typically I can get 2nd or 3rd most damage on my team, but recons aren't nearly as deadly as a well equipped striker.

@traevelliath

I find that spazzing strikers tend to go in circles. Just wait for them to come full circle and strike. Works pretty well.

Mon, 01/23/2012 - 10:43

#45

Arquebus

Balanced.

Where game balance is concerned, two wrongs do make a right, actually. In a competitive game, every ability you give to one player that interacts with another player is going to be, by its very nature, oppressive and unfun to its target in some way. For instance, it's not fun to get killed, even though it's obviously loads of fun to kill someone else; it's also not fun to be unable to kill someone, but very fun to survive someone's attack.

Balance is finding the right... well, balance between "This power is awesome!" and "I hate it when people use this power on me," in relation to the other powers given by the game, and for this we HAVE to look at the other classes. Recons are just as much fun to play as the others, and no more not-fun to play against than the others (my opinion, of course, but also the opinion of many other posters), which makes them balanced.

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Do you feel that recons getting hits on people without warning is balanced?