@Lordofnecromancers
I smell a f2p
Chris saying guardians are better than strikers as a class..
Let me point out a few things.
A guardian needs to walk back to a base to recover HP, a striker gets there and comes back to fight in a blink of an eye.
A striker can wear pentas, getting as much HP as a guard, but also having the medium DMG/ASI bonuses that striker gives you.
As a guardian you have to either fight or run back, as a striker you can leave for a second, hit a couple times coming from bottom, go back to base if hurt.
I don't see how a guardian is better than a striker.. If that was the case, the players that do better should be all guardians.. That isn't the case.
Imagine having a 2vs2 between 2 Guardians and a Guardian and a Striker. The 2 guardians will be [destroyed] by the super fast incoming attacks of the striker, since one hit damages both shields if theyre both up. The guardian will be the distraction while the striker comes from anywhere as soon as you're vulnerable.
Pay attention to this: If you [screw] up, a striker can get on your face as soon as he notices you did, and punish you for it.. Free like that lol. A guardian has to be already there to punish you :P
I want to hear why you think a striker is less effective than a guard.. You clearly don't understand the game very much.
Chris is right, in the right hands a guardian is considered the most versatile class. Tanking that first hit is more dangerous than most people think.
It's even worse if the guardian is using a vog set. You would never be able to touch him as a striker. A striker has the ability to pick off teams out in the open, but has little stopping power in groups and can be knocked back unlike the guardian. The guardian is unaffected by 2hit knockback, so he can easily send a combo right back if he has decent timing. The ability to use his shield and give strikers the advantage of tanking the first hit will guarantee a kill, and makes capping that much more dangerous. As a recon, I can tell you that I always list guardians as a priority. Once they step on that cap with a partner and a shield, it is VERY difficult to take care of both without losing health. Guardians make offense that much easier, and if you see guardians overlapping shields, they are obviously playing guardian the wrong way. Strikers can be "bounced" off guardians with any 2hit weapon (by their teammates), especially if they are in the middle of a dash animation (the knockback will be huge!).
If what you said was true, 6 strikers would win every GvG match and would become the metagame in its entirety. But it isn't, so unfortunately guardian is as good as Chris says it is, and don't get me started on what a good recon can do for your team.
tl;dr
STRIKERS CAN BE KNOCKED BACK MORE THAN ANY OTHER CLASS
GUARDIANS CANNOT BE KNOCKED BACK
"Capping points not main objective"
Of course it is, more often than not I see someone with a whole nother digit of damage then me on the enemy team, that loses becuase he didn't capture any of the points he broke up. I just laugh when someone kills me and another guy, then just runs away without claiming his prize. Then he goes "my team! oh my team sucks!" and I go sell a hard earned enamarock.
And anyone who dosen't respect guardian obviously hasn't played teir one lockdown enough. The reason why people thing guardian suks is becuase people use the strike booster and leave their backup in the dust.
You have a very good nose.
@ everyone
After seeing what some others have posted, who do you think would win this battle? just wondering.
A Full Vog Gaurdian with Toothpicks VS Full SKolver Striker with Toothspicks?
Or better yet, has anyone ever seen one of those lame guardian on guardian fights? It's like watching two trailer trash girls pull each others hair out.
@lordofnecromancers
A recon with a gran faust
The Guardians would although it's still a pointless comparison since any pure team is fundamentally bad, unless the skill levels are imbalanced enough between the teams to compensate. A mix of all three classes is the ideal way to play and a well played group of all the individual classes playing to their strengths in a team will obliterate six people all running the same class.
I'm just sharing my experience.. And my experience tells me that "2 guard, 1 recon, 3 strikers" isn't necessarily ideal. One word: Finesse. Those guys run with 5 strikers or maybe 4.. They have only been beaten by one guild in ALL their games history.
Another factor you should consider is CE rez, why? Cause CE rezing a guardian is helpful, but you still have to walk to the place.. As a striker you are there way too quick I would say.. Making that kill almost useless.
I'd say strikers have more positive aspects than the other classes:
Better reaction time, more bonuses for your swords, can be anywhere in the map as soon as needed.. And just laughing at you when you fought hard on a 1v1 or a team fight, and as soon as you win it, they're back with full health cause they CE rezed.. They will laugh at your HP recovery shield :p
All these things seem obvious to me, but maybe it's cause I play competitive fighters.. And this game it's pretty much a team fighter with diablo Pov.
When you play a fighter there are some basic things you have to learn:
Baiting.. Meaning you study your enemy's movement, then you get them when they are where you expected them to be.
Priority.. Meaning you will use an attack that will get him before his attack gets you.
Reaction.. How fast can you escape or follow a combo?
There are other factors used in a fight, but just thinking of these 3.. Strikers are better at all of the three..
There are so many situations where a striker can get more benefits than a guardian or recon.. Specially when you're alone.. You can either escape easily, or be offensive for as long as it's safe, then escape easily? lol.
I hope this thought something new to some of you. And for those who think guardian is OP are probably not analyzing well enough the matchups. All the info you need is there, you just need to compare the possibilities in the situations.
doesn't Chris play a full skolver striker with a Final Flourish so then why does he say guardian is better when he doesn't play one
@Spyash
I have played against Chris as a guardian... IMPOSSIBRU TO KILL!
I really think that swords speed on guardian need a nerf.
@Lordofnecromancers
You are kidding right?
OOO made heart trinkets incredibly easy to get, and you still think they should ban them??
No, just no.
ALSO, lets not forget about Bombers. 1 Bomber can really make 1 team win if hes good enough.
I play T1 LD regularly and get stuck in this often enough. A guardian holds a capture point (I'm either recon or guardian at this point most the time) and I do some tango'ing with them. Now I can tell if the player is a fresher blood or a vet primarily by how their combos work. If they send two strikes at me every time, then they are likely to be fresher blood in the guardian role because the guardian's best asset (their shield) is not being used as effectively... and I strike them down for it.
A veteran in that role, will have me trying to capture that point for well over a minute, and will likely find the time to either call a friend over who isn't a guardian, or see a flaw/mistake in my striking methods and abuse them.
Now, as for striker... it's simple... they're fast. They have speed out the wazzoo. They remind me of Super Smash Bros Brawl when I choose Sonic... I move around waaaay too much and waaay too fast for my opponents to be able to quickly take me down. I will launch them 5 times before they even get the chance on me. Similar story with striker, they have movement on their side sooo much, it seems that they're invincible and if they're decently skilled, this is not far from the truth.
However, recon has bombs.... and you'll be surprised at how good bomb spamming after marking a striker is. Do I normally need a friend to help? Yes. Will said friend probably be another striker? Yes. But, I still get that kill.
I agree. Lockdown is a terrible game. This is why I won't be playing Spiral Knights once Tera/GW2 comes out unless something about it gets changed.
As a person who started playing Lockdown with terrible UVs and then upgrading to the best after I got the crowns for it, they hardly make a difference. There was barely any noticeable increase in damage. ASI UVs are so minor that a Very High UV would only pull around an extra 5 combos per minute than a weapon with no UV. Lockdown is all about the shield cancel and weaving. People just look for something to blame if they lose. It's human nature.
Strikers only seem overpowered because many of the skilled players steamroll over below average players with it in pubs. This turns the game in favor for the skilled player. In competitive GvG Lockdown, however, we usually run 6 strikers unless the guild we're facing is keeping up with us. We'll throw in a guardian or two to defend the really good strikers whenever they need it. Guardians change the game if we do this because our good strikers can literally 1v3 if they dodge and defend the guardian well enough.
My biggest annoyances with Lockdown is the server latency. Nothing makes me angrier than constantly getting hit 5 feet away with a GF/DA. It isn't the player's ping, it's the server's. I'm sure I do this to other people, but it isn't my fault. The server lag in this game is probably the main reason I hate Lockdown so much.
If any class needs tweaking I would say it's recon. If they go in for a hit and a good striker hits them right after, they're essentially screwed.
Strikers are fine where they are, and so are guardians. Don't change them. Disable auto-aim from Lockdown first before anything else.
strikers are OP? oh boy. you have to be kidding.. it's a character mod. Not a separate character. It depends who you are playing against and what tier you're playing on. Personally I have only bothered playing Tier 3 because the other two tiers are almost obsolete. and that said, I find strikers to be severely UNDERPOWERED because once your dash is out of power, you are DEFENSELESS for 3 whole seconds.
lol. I mean...LOL. Ever heard of dash rationing?
@Canozo: Actually F2P have a hard time getting them still. They're extremely easy if you have 3000 CE to devote to them, but no F2P wastes his time on crafting Trinkets; unless he has nothing else to do.
@Thread: Personally I think that Recon's just need a buff; Guardians and Strikers are fine. Perfectly fine. If anything needs to change, it's:
1) Recon class.
2) Auto-aim.
3) Weapons and their respective damage (You all know what I'm talking about here).
4) Chris (Trolololol).
~Sev
since we're all getting in on this, I'll add my ire.
I have a lot of stuff. 2 penta pendants, fully heated vog, skolver and snarbolax, on top of my demo gears and some other useless stuff in LD. I also have a high ping rate and a low connection speed with a lot of dropout, as I live in a rural area that doesn't care about future thinking like....8meg DL.
Doesn't matter how many HPs you have. A Striker will come in with a GF and break your shield in 1 hit of vh ASI, take half your life (even with Snarbolax?) in the next, switch weapons and FF you to death, then retreat with a cover fire of polaris. Like clockwork. Might as well be a robot putting a car together. Especially in the larger LD guilds, when they see a lapse in the action, they spawncamp with infillating polaris wash.
Well, what about bombs? bah. They have paid for full shock, already have full freeze, and can get back to heal before fire kills them. I'm a good bomber, but I have no answer for elite T3 lockdown.
The thing is, using every rotten trick and exploit you can doesn't speed the game up any; it just makes the gameplay miserable. I actually have a hard time seeing how it's fun for you either, unless it's some sort of powertrip thing.
Look, when I'm on a dominating team, I please ask to not spawncamp. Well...I used to.Now I don't care. I just want it to be over most of the time, and if the score goes 300-20, I just switch to striker and run out to be killed.
Why do I do this? I need Krogmo Coins again. :\
I miss T1, where there were noobs to kill quick and the good players wielded heavy hatchets.
Since this is in the suggestions, here's one. Have a skunk button. It the opposing team gets 3 times your points in a short time, your whole team can choose to hit a button and stop the game, but still get KCs. It's better than watching the waves of Polaris balls roll against the barrier for 3 minutes.
as a veteran of tons of LD (pub and guild, maybe 300+ hours worth) and having put tons of time in every class, i would have to agree that strikers are overpowered. its the game design - in the t3 clockworks you are heavily punished for each hit you take and t3 Lockdown is no different. just like in the clockworks, the best solution is evasion, which the striker is the best at with the boost. strikers therefore have the best offensive and defensive capabilities.
i see some statements arguing that guardians are overpowered, but i've been a guardian most of my career and thats simply not true. just try to be a guardian in GvG against finesse. evading hits is how you stay alive and kill in LD, whether youre a sneaky recon or just a boost mashing striker - the guardian doesnt get to run once his shield is done. often reckless teammates within the guardian's sphere will help the shield break faster. guardians might seem faster for their swings but thats simply a defensive advantage of play style. good guardians start their swings split seconds early to cut strikers before they can start their attacks. guardians are also prey to competent gunners, something strikers have a much better shot at killing.
i will also agree that skolver armor is OP, and not just for LD. the defensive stats are comparable to any other armor with normal/piercing, yet it also adds a medium sword damage bonus and a resist. if the defensive stats were lowered maybe 2 bars for piercing and normal, it would be a better balance. i would go further to say that pulsars are OP as well. not only do they have a giant damage radius compared to any other gun, the use of polaris also means a good chance at moderate shock AND knockback, while alchemers in comparison have tiny hit radii, and can only fire 2 shots in rapid succession before reload and have comparable damage per shot.
Strikers just easy to stack up with trinkets and toothpicks. On a base level they all work, but striker seems easier to buff up. If your teams striker is buffed up, theres less reason to be a team-playing recon or guardian. As you go into lower teirs, you'll see that guardians and recons are more common becuase full weapon trinket and UV users are less common.
95% of the idiots of the steam event where just there for the snowballs, they just wanted that steam stupid thingamajig. :| Although i did enjoy wuppin some ass for once in T1 instead of sucking so bad.
I think you mean @Gianfri. We have the same Avatars. ._. Unless...you were talking to me?
I have no clue...I must have had two Lockdown complaint threads up at the same time and commented in the wrong one. You said something about Steam Christmas event bringing players to the game which then got owned by T1 veterens with maxed UVs and trinkets.
That was a Looooooong time ago, Bro/Brah.
Wait...
Does that mean you wanted to Necro ma Thread!?!? D:<
Chris you were gonna roll on a gunner and show how overpowered it was whats happened to that claim? You got your asshandled by boost spamer strikers? Was it too hard to play with? I bet you shocked when you couldn't kill people even with 7-8 shots while you'd kill them with a swing or two if you were sword.
:D
Anyway..
Change strike module and make it panic button so you can use it for running or as gap closer in sort because atm ppl spam it ilke they're speedy gonzales on steroids.
Recon duration could be lowered abit.
Make guardian shield weak against projectiles.
Remove dmg/speed bonuses on modules keep only negative effects like negative asi etc.
Ban freaking HP pendants since they're craftable now :>
This may just be how this thread is reading to me, but a lot of the arguments supporting LD as it is rely or touch on how you have to "get better" or "your problems stem from inexperience."
While this is true, and is true of just about any game, it's a bit presumptuous to just expect everyone to want to play competitively. Many people either want to play a little bit here and there or just want to earn some Krogmo coins so they can power up their PvE sets. Every time I've played LD I've been a useless member, I pretty much end up as fodder for the players who spend all their time in LD.
[Just to throw in a comparison that most people hopefully can understand, imagine if when playing... say... Tetris (people remember that right?) at Round 1 random pieces would fall at the speed of Round 30. If you were completely new to Tetris, this would seem rather stupid to you, no? And then when asking other people how they deal with that, they tell you that you just aren't good enough yet, you should go do some reflex training so you can react to the falling pieces. Just like LD, most people wouldn't even bother unless they were very invested. I hope that got my point across?]
And before you tell me to "get better," I have tried. Repeatedly. My friend let me play on her account, she has 3 or 4 near-perfect T2 load-outs. Not to mention, I've spent a lot of time reading various guides on how to play Lockdown and watching videos of Lockdown.
But I was still useless. I understand that it's due to a lack a skill, but the problem is the absolute lack of a learning curve. Regardless of tier, there are players who can easily destroy unskilled knights. And I hate to point out the obvious, but re-spawning for 3/4s of a round doesn't exactly allow for a lot of practice or experience.
Usually, the fore mentioned players are the ones with perfect UVs, the ideal weaponry, and the highest allowed amount of trinkets and boosts allowed in that tier.
And if I remember correctly, Chris said something akin to "if you're having trouble just get better stuff. If you don't want to pay then go earn your equipment." The problem here is the same as my initial claim, some people honestly aren't playing Lockdown for the game, they're playing it as a means to an end. Spending their time getting equipment for LD is counter-productive if their purpose was to play Lockdown to get items for the clockworks.
And Echoez, you're right. There is nothing wrong with "being expected to make better gear to compete in an aspect of a game driven by gear."
That is- if your intent is to play for the competition. But being expected to spend money, time, and energy (physical energy. not in-game. ha) on getting gear so you can get gear is a bit ridiculous for the average player.
And once again to Echoez, as well as the other people who have used this argument: It's all fine and dandy that you have examples of players with bad or average equipment prevailing over the perfect UVs and trinkets, but in every example you all have given, the player wins through skill alone. What about those of us who aren't skilled but have the same equipment (if even that powerful)? Regardless of whether the lack of skill arises from being new to the game, having other responsibilities, or just not being very good at Spiral Knights.
I'm not saying that the changes proposed are all perfect, or even feasible, but you have to realize that many of you are looking at it from the viewpoint of SK and LD veterans. I've spoken with quite a number of SK players who have resigned themselves to never touching Lockdown again due to the crushing and constant defeats at the hands of competitive players.
I think the idea that sprung up about matching playing by rank points is the best one so far. And while I do agree that Strikers are overwhelming (especially when used by skilled players against newer ones), I don't think there's any way to limit them without ruining higher tier competitive matches.
I 'unno.
Netknight has made the best point thus far. Lockdown has no learning curve, just a sheer cliff face. The average player does not want to spend forty hours to improve their Lockdown game, of which half to three quarters will be spent waiting to revive. That is also why T1 is great- the gear is all easily within reach, and fights take at least 5-10 seconds to conclude, usually much longer if you play guardian or recon. You actually have time to practice, reflect upon what you are failing at, and try out a counter, often all within the same fight.
This learning curve problem is true of all PvP oriented games, and is generally solved by dividing play to different levels- i.e. casual, ladder/ranked, and competitive. If you want to play competitive, you start with casual; if you devote the time to learn how to play well, you'll soon be destroying your opponents and move on to ladder/ranked, where you will tend to be matched with similarly ranked players. And if you get high enough on the ranking system, you may be interested in competitive play like tournaments.
To make Lockdown more fun, what is needed are casual and ranked levels of play. Casual is the standard Lockdown format, but won't earn you any rank points. Ranked requires that the current rank system be reworked to actually reflect win/loss ratio; the server will be able to then build teams that are more evenly matched. (Along those lines, rank modifiers can be used if the server is putting together players with vastly different latency). I would argue that games should have no crown payout at all, or at most, a fee refund for the winning team. (Fees would be lower as well)
this person who made the thread IS SO RIGHT for most things not all BUT i did a couple of ultimate matches with people
Frostbite- ME and my friends and randoms played a match It was so close that both teams got to 500 and we went up to until 530 which my team took over
1 more place and we won by 5 points. Everyone got 100 rank points :D
Another- place same thing except team got 900 and we got 905 ;D
You're in a team, so don't act on your own if you can help it then.
If you have trouble surviving long enough to kill someone no matter what your gear, team up. Ask a guardian to cover you while you use either recon or striker to attack. That's what I did back in T2.
Otherwise, strategic planning works too. Like Forstbite: before walking onto a CP, throw snowballs at it. The shotgun effect should smoke out any recons, ad anyone on there is almost helpless (but they can still have a viscous bite. Be warned).
If your damage isn't up to snuff, go recon/striker and sneak past enemy lines to cap undefended CPs. Cap it, then get out of there before someone gets you. 10 caps was my highest record personally. (Capped the enemy CP and guarded it for half the match, no deaths even then. In T2, and my proudest LD moment. :D)
But what I mostly do is play normally, while keeping the team updated on the game's status. Which CPs are secured, which have been overrun and by how many, recommended course of action (Abandon 1. Move to 3 instead.), oncoming threats, suggested attack (2 guardians and a striker to CP 2) etcetc...
Tbh, I'm not very good at LD either. My gear is 4*, I don't play it a whole ton, damage averages at 1.8K, and people are more than likely not to listen to my advice. But I try, and sometimes, I win.
Sorry if LD is simply too difficult for you/you can't seem to get the hang of it. I'd LOVE to help you if I could, but I can't.
Best to choose Striker if ye know what you're doing, Guardian to turtle around saving those other guys by making yourself the first target, and Recon for getting past and behind mobs. I tend to hate Vog/Skolver Striker Gangs, then next comes the Recon Raiders, and finally the guys following all of them protecting a large group and practically blinding me with their shields, the Fortress Guardians. @Chris: Anything that stops you, but I can kill shows a tad decency to win against some groups with unstoppable individuals. As for the thread, then why not play Blast Network, or stop playing those PvP games? These items are granted to the player by devotion/pay to the game. Strikers are annoying, but you can combat them by staying with others. Strikers are the most annoying to me, but that's mainly because I lost a mouse (now using the ever-annoying laptop pad), but I can get rid of them by even Recon! Strikers already have lower health than the rest, and Trinkets are like other items in your arsenal. "He has a Thorn Blade and KO's everyone. Unfair to people in 4*!" You got it you use it you lose or you lose, but if you whine don't play or don't complain. Keep playing until the steam roller is on your side :D
~Sincerely, the Devilite's Advocate
I never was good at using striker, actually it always get me killed in record timing. Out of the people who I've seen use striker they tend to use it pretty well.... or maybe i suck because i play on the key board.
I like reading some of the posts here, especially gianfri's because our guilds used to be on the opposite side of the coin. I think it will be interesting if I get the chance to play alongside him in future. Maybe.
Personally, I find getting the 'first' achievement or being 'top' at leaderboard rather meaningless. The former is merely playing as soon as the content is released, the latter is just playing as much games as possible.
Late post is late, so bear with me. As a founder and co-gm of Finesse, I can say we used so many strikers is more of a coincidence that most of the members happen to be very good in it. I don't disagreed with most of what gianfri's say from an individual point of view. Personally, I don't believe in the rock-paper-scissor notion of each class respective class has over the other, neither do I think the strength of a lockdown team depend on each player's individual skill only. You see, I always nag at the guild that ideal teamwork would be besting a team full of skilled players even if everyone is weaker, skill-wise. I feel there are multiple, reasonable ways to bring Finesse to much greater heights. For one, the use of voice chat will greatly improves a team's mobility. There are also many projects we started but everyone is just a cool laid-back person in Finesse which is why there's no motivation to see through it. That should be the way in my opinion, enjoyment has to come first for everyone.
I have seen many outstanding players in my time, and the world of lockdown is too small for them to showcase their skills extensively. They are also intelligent players but there's only so much you can do here. In a normal hack/slash game, you'll consider zoning, air combo-ing, first hits, shifting, cancelling, damage reset if there's decay on air combo, counters, wake-up maneuvers, sidesteps, mana-management etc. And lag game is lag with the server latency being erratic. 80% of us already left and will probably never be back, I wish them the best in their endeavors. Pity we never put out our dream team once in gvg.
Good luck
Reuental
* Back to PS3 *
T1 pvp! Technicaly there are heart trinkets, but still, no toothpicks.
@Canozo
Yeah. I'm serious. Heart Trinkets totally ruin LD. They need to be banned (from LD, not the entire SK game. I'm too lazy to go back and see what I said earlier, and... whatever.)
@Orangeo
There are elementtal swords, and most guys in T! don't get the breaker lines.
Yes, elemental swords exist... but the vets find themselves a bit more amorous (the swordie vets anyway) of the heavy hatchet/thwack hammer line due to the stun feature. Static edge is a close second to them.
Gunners will typically go for freeze gun/zapper.
Bombers have two choices, firecracker or cold snap... either one's alright, I take freeze over fire though.
Still, in T1, without as much of a buff from heart trinks, things are a bit more fun. I, myself, will use one heart trinket and can get by just fine with any of the others. Still killable by non-trinks, and still relevant to double-trinks.
Sheep baa, cows moo, and MMORPG players call PvP unbalanced. When will people get IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECTLY BALANCED! Just play with it! Dear god, you'd think we all missed the talk about how "life isn't fair" in preschool when Sally got a cookie before you did.
@Aemicus
I told you she was JANE, not SALLY.
/Rage
The only thing that needs to be changed in lockdown is that autoaim needs to be disabled.
I play t2 and am usually recon. I have brute jelly set, a freezy vap mkII w/ a charge time decrease med uv, and a grintovec.
Usual course of action is drop a bomb, catch a striker running through, mark him, them give him a good thwock over the head and repeat
Usually works.
Except for the autoaim.
Everytime as soon as they're marked they swing and if im in range it hits me. If im not in range i have to book it to the side to get out of the way of the toothpick because it is aimed right at me no matter where they're facing to start. I know this isn't just a fluke because the few times i brought my toothpick and played striker it worked for me. Add that to the fact that with a single hit while invisible you don't just come out but lose all of it means that if don't dodge before they even attack I die
Tl;Dr no autotarget everything else is fine
Have only read the OP and first three comments so far, as I have to hop off here to head to work. So far I agree with Chris's statements and reasoning. Will finish reading it later today.
~Gwen
i hate lockdown because im 3-4 star and im going against these overpowered( if that makes sence) 5 stars i say lockdown should be didivded into stars rather than tier so that 1 (and others like me) get to have a fun nice game rather than pay 200cr to get killed a bunch of times and i dont think striker is over powered but i think it is just a way to rush in get almost killed by a guardian but killing the guardian and being a coward rushing back tp get health, why do they not just fight their ways back as they got fast swords and all round higher damage.
"(Edit: I wasn't referring to you, Ironskull. Just the general situation from my point of view. I see you're trying to give solutions to that, and I wasn't posting to spite you. sorry if I offended you. ._.)"
None taken.