Spiral Knights - Proto Royal Jelly

Proto Royal Jelly - The Sequel

15 replies [Last post]

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 06:11

Zinqf

Several of you already know that I've killed Roarmulus Twins and Royal Jelly using nothing more than the proto set given upon character creation. If you don't, feel free to drop by my channel. Just search "Proto Twins" or "Proto Royal Jelly".

You also know that the kills resulted in one death mere seconds before the killing blow.

I reattempted him today after a 4 week hiatus playing other games...

Here's the trailer, I'll produce the whole thing on Friday after I get back from work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDZwAnWsYL0

Full Video Here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND1VoqrV4ms

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 10:34

Nicoya-Kitty

Whatever the outcome, I'm

Whatever the outcome, I'm sure it'll be epic. :D

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 20:57

Zinqf

Ok, the full length video is up

Proto Royal Jelly - The Sequel

Facts
The fight does take the same amount of time with the proto sword as the gun.
I sped up the polyp dps phase (0:45 to 3:38), the rest is played at normal speed.
Gear is shown at the start and the end of the fight. (Proto Sword 0*, Proto Shield 0*, Proto Gun 0*, Spiral Sallet 0*, Spiral Culet 0*)
This is a no-death solo kill of Royal Jelly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND1VoqrV4ms

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 21:43

Nicoya-Kitty

Nice! I'm still trying to

Nice! I'm still trying to figure out a way to get past Phase 2 using a toothpick, without using vials. I haven't tried with my Flamberge yet, but hopefully the fire will be enough to keep up with the minis I don't manage to mince in time.

I tried doing IMF/RT with just my Super Blast Bomb (and Antigua for breaking stuff and hitting switches) today. IMF went well, but I got frustrated part way through the boss fight due to one too many BS rocket hits (the hit box is ahead of the actual rocket graphic) and the Antigua not hitting the switches reliably. I'll probably do it again once I cook up a Nitronome so I don't have to get right up against the twins to make the hit count.

Fun fact: Ultra ASI is enough to get two successful blast bomb hits on a stun, but only if you time it perfectly. Usually the second will detonate just after the twin goes invincible again. I'm hoping it'll be a bit more forgiving when I bump my CTR module to 5* to get Max.

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 23:06

Zinqf

@Nicoya-Kitty

I dunno if the toothpick has the dps for phase 2 without vials. You'd have to combine the explosive box positioning with certain other positioning too (in relation to being distant from the polyps).

Glad to see more and more people purposely making fights difficult for them XD.

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 23:20

Metagenic

Nice run!

Since you already did it with the Proto Sword and Proto Gun, do it with the Proto Bomb as well. I'd like to see how that goes.

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 23:40

Zinqf

@Metagenic

Thanks, although Proto Bomb might possibly be a good thing to use against the smaller jellies, but here's a problem....

The proto bomb isn't issued to you when you start the game, neither is a +weapon slot module to carry it. The set of default starter gear is what I define as the proto set (imo).

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 01:25

Nicoya-Kitty

@Zinqf Well, you could expand

@Zinqf Well, you could expand it by adding the "Starter Pack" set, which gives you the Static Flash and Green Ward as well as the slot unlocks

But yeah, pure toothpicking RJ might not be possible. It really depends on how reliable the fire status is, and how easy it is to mop up the minis. Plus due to the damage scaling, even upgrading to the 5* on the flamberge line will only add maybe another 2-3 damage per hit. I'll probably give it a few more shots to see how it goes since I've got all the equipment and all the time in the world.

Given the nature of the healing mechanics, a full toothpick party might actually stand a fair chance, if say 2-3 of them work on mopping up minis while the other(s) DPS the jelly.

The only other pierce weapon I can think of to try to take on RJ would be the needle shot (hilariously doing ~40% less damage than the 2* autogun) or toxic needle if I really want to cheat.

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 05:27

Zinqf

@Nicoya-Kitty

With the "starter pack" reasoning, you could also use the CE that came with it. Good try but one of the reasons I set these rules is to prove its' possible to do this "Out of the box". This means you could essentially gain no power at all (even a small amount), and still win against things.

Although a real starter set just needs Calibur. That way you can obliterate all tier 1 and tier 2 content without much difficulty...especially when you mix in the wolver set. My alt specifically just wears the 2* wolver set with the 2* Calibur, 2* Pulsar, and 2* Bristling Buckler. I might actually use him to do FSC and Vanaduke maybe...atm no one's been able to solo FSC or Vanaduke without using 4* or higher weapons. Doing it in 2* armor and 2* weapons (Wolver Set being MISERABLE in FSC/Vana), it might be watchable =)

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 10:26

Nicoya-Kitty

Fair 'nuff. We'll just have

Fair 'nuff. We'll just have to lobby OOO to put the Proto Bomb in the default loadout for knights exiting their individual Absolutely Safe Capsules. They could use it as an opportunity to introduce arsenal stations, put a little section that says "Try changing your gear here by equipping your proto bomb" or something.

Doing FSC/Vana in pure 2* should be possible. It might take a few hours and a few tries, but still possible. The Pulsar should do about 1/4 the damage of the Polaris against Vana on the body phases. Mask phases would be a pain with the Calibur, though, getting only about 1/6th the damage of a Levi. Doing everything from Basil to the Core would probably take a full afternoon.

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 11:54

#10

Guyinshinyarmour

@Zinqf
Since I'm an annoying, pedantic wretch I'll point out that your proto was heated. You had gained some amount of power. :p

You could also argue that it's supposed to be impossible to reach T2 without 2* gear, but I digress...
____________________

Frankly, I find using proto armour or no damage runs good enough for a challenge. I don't see how people think that using proto weapons to kill things is more pro than using something more appropriate. Lack of armour and health means you have to play perfectly and not get hit, but lack of good weapons just means that it takes forever to kill anything/becomes a grind. After all, you had to speed up killing the polyps and use the explosive cubes and vials to do noticeable damage the king. That should clue you in.

All that said, that has more to do with proving you're pro or thirsting for a challenge, rather than making an interesting video/proving a point. Those are far different beasts.

Still, you have a far greater tolerance to boredom then I, and managed to not die when doing it. *Claps*

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 23:52

#11

Zinqf

@Guyinshinyarmour

"You could also argue that it's supposed to be impossible to reach T2 without 2* gear"
You can get invited to T2 by someone else that has clearance.

"Your proto armor was heated."
Actually if you get invited to the start of T2 and work your way to RJ, you'll be fully heated by D16.

"I don't see how people think that using proto weapons to kill things is more pro than using something more appropriate."

Only someone who hasn't actually attempted a heavily handicapped matchup would come to that conclusion.
For that, I will give you a wall of text.

Dead wrong on Twins.
Dead wrong on Royal Jelly.
Probably right on Vanaduke.

There are many mechanics that no one ever gets to experience because weapons simply remove any need to deal with them. Even with vanaduke most everything you'd normally have to watch out for gets nullified because the right 5* weapons blow him up so ridiculously fast.

Twins

On Twins, you have to utilize TONS of friendly fire not just on the twins themselves, but on the scuttlebots which are essentially INVINCIBLE when you hold 0* weaponry.

On Twins, not only do you have to consistently not make mistakes, the times you stun the twins and when/why/how you do actually affects whether you are successful.

On Twins, you actually need to shield bump....alot.

Royal Jelly

On Royal Jelly there are countless mechanics, and ill start with the first....Royal Jelly's healing mechanic. With 5* weapons you don't need to care. With 4* weapons you don't need to care. Even when I did my 2* runs using Calibur, I was able to effectively outdps his healing with just my weapon! When you hold 0* proto, everything is different and you have to actually care about the mechanic.

On Royal Jelly, positioning mobs near explosive blocks that respawn and blowing them up is something you do for the lawlz...when you hold 0* proto, its required.

On Royal Jelly, you can simply kill the spiked jellies, in proto they are essentially invulnerable to your weapons and you have to deal with them till phase 2.

On Royal Jelly, destroying the polyps is how you push the boss into phase 2, without the polyps there is no healing.

On Royal Jelly, phase 2/3 the polyps respawn meaning that you cannot at any cost negate his healing, only reduce it. In proto, you either reduce his healing output or you lose.

On Royal Jelly when using proto, you must utilize your vials (especially the curse vials) VERY carefully. I won't go into detail about this one because it would take awhile to explain.

Phase 3 is not only survival, you have to be ridiculously offensive and be VERY PROXIMATE to the boss to utilize the curse vials.

With weapons everyone kills everything, armor does not matter as much.

Go find a video other than mine of a 2* prenerf JK kill.
Find a video other than mine of a 2* postpatch JK kill.
Find a video other than mine of a 0* JK kill. (Not to mention several of them and a no-death kill)
Find a video other than mine of a 0* Twins kill.

If this was just about patience and not thinking outside the box, there'd be tons of these out there.

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 23:44

#12

Zinqf

@Guyinshinyarmour

The post above mainly explains why your original theorycrafting reason is incorrect.

Here's your TLDR

You can nerf your trinkets and your armor, but until you nerf your weapons ALSO...you won't understand the change in the fight mechanics. Remember, no one thought 2* JK was possible because the weapons couldn't outpace the healing. Also remember that no one even THOUGHT of thinking that 0* JK was possible.

Take away all your trinkets, your weapons, and your armor...only then you'll understand.

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 00:32

#13

Nicoya-Kitty

I have to agree with Zinqf.

I have to agree with Zinqf. even running with 5* armor and shields and 3* "ineffective" weapons is quite an experience.

The scuttles in RT are a good example. They're an occasional 3 second nuisance when I'm running with my Voltedge, but when using only pierce weapons they become incredibly obnoxious to deal with.

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 13:24

#14

Nicoya-Kitty

So I just did a dry run on RJ

So I just did a dry run on RJ using the pepperbox and antigua. Unfortunately I found it quite difficult to manage the minis, due to a mechanic I had not foreseen: the polyps, when launching the mini cubes, throw them directly at you. Thus, if you're standing still, they basically spawn directly on top of you and start attacking immediately. (Not coincidentally, this is yet another one of those little things you never notice when you're just swording)

I also found it quite troublesome to try to keep the minis cleared sufficiently to slow down RJ's healing. I had hoped that the wide sweep of the autogun line shots would take out quite a few of them at once, but it turned out to be a lot more tricky than I'd planned due to the relatively tight confines, and the minis' stubborn refusal to line up in an orderly fashion for me to shoot at them all at once. Clearing the minis with my antigua was slightly more effective, but still troublesome.

I probably could have made it through phase 3 with the pepperbox if I had a bit more patience, but after the second rev I just finished him off with my nightblade. At this point I'm thinking that the Needle Shot will be ruled out as a possible solo RJ weapon (though in groups it might still work, since you could have more people to clear minis), though the Toxic Needle might still be viable as it will, assuming the poison is reliable enough, eliminate the need to mop up minis.

Wed, 02/01/2012 - 00:09

#15

Nicoya-Kitty

More notes. (I feel like I'm

More notes. (I feel like I'm talking to myself. Is anyone actually reading this?)

There's 6 distinct monster types in the RJ fight:

1: The RJ himself
2: The Polyps
3: The initial Royal Minis that spawn in the center
4: The Royal Minis that spawn from the polyps. For the sake of distinction, I'll call them polyp minis
5: The initial Jelly Cubes that spawn in the center
6: The Jelly Cubes spawned from RJ

Both types of minis obviously drop nothing, while the initial cubes will drop a full complement of loot when they die by any means. Polyps drop hearts when killed, with a reasonable amount of frequency, and I believe the spawned jelly cubes also have a chance to drop hearts.

RJ will heal by absorbing any of the 4 types of Cubes and Minis, and will not attempt to absorb Cubes or Minis while poisoned. RJ appears to only spawn cubes when at "full" health.

With this in mind, it is in fact slightly counterproductive to poison RJ before the arena is clear of Jelly Cubes. Maintaining a fairly moderate rate of damage against him will cause him to absorb them to heal, and so long as you keep him off full health he won't respawn them.

The polyp minis appear to only have 1hp, and will die from a single hit from any weapon. This makes clearing them with an ineffective weapon much more realistic than it might seem at first.

On to weaponry...

I had initially been trying some dry runs with the pepperbox, as its damage against slime is obviously hugely greater than the Needle Shot and Toxic Needle. However, I hadn't initially realized that the range on the pepperbox was significantly shorter than that of the two piercing lines, which makes the latter two about twice as effective at clearing the polyp minis as the pepperbox, due to the conical shape of the bullet spray. I found that cleaning up the field with the Toxic Needle, even in Phase 3, was actually a viable strategy.

Speaking of the Toxic Needle, its poison status is amazingly a slight liability in the early stages of the battle, as it prevents RJ from absorbing the large jelly cubes. However, there appears to be enough opportunity for reabsorption that they're generally eliminated by phase 3. Once the cubes are gone, though, the poison is reliable enough to allow for ignoring the minis through phase 1 and 2 and using a simple tactic of kiting around and DPSing the big guy.

On phase 3, however, the poison starts to become significantly less effective. It's certainly welcome when it happens, but more often than not the majority of RJ's healing will take place shortly after his invulnerable spins, before you're able to poison him again with the gun. As such, holding a charge during the spin phase in order to release it when RJ becomes vulnerable again is not an effective strategy, and the spin time is much better spent clearing the field of minis. Careful timing will of course allow you to use a final normal shot to initiate a charge to unleash upon the big guy.

As for sidearms, I found that the antigua wasn't as useful as I'd hoped for getting me out of jams. I will probably sub in my TSB for breaking blocks and clearing through the occasional mini logjam. The wide first swing should prove very handy for this.

As for other gear...

I discovered that ASI has a much bigger impact on the autogun line than I had initially expected, and switching out my BTS for my Swiftstrike made a very crucial improvement in my mobility. I found I was getting hit by polyp mini blobs much less frequently, and was, in general, much better able to navigate the arena while avoiding damage.

I should note at this point that I still didn't succeed. I got to phase 3 with just the Toxic Needle, but then proceeded to die twice. Most of this was due to poor positioning on my part, as I ended up taking quite a bit of damage getting caught on the right hand side of RJ when he was starting his spin. I also hadn't fully heated my Toxic Needle, so I was dealing with only low CTR and slightly less damage than it'd otherwise be capable of.

I'm actually reasonably confident at this point that I'll be able to take down the pink guy with the Toxic Needle, and possibly the Needle Shot, though the latter will be much less forgiving in the earlier phases if I slack off on clearing minis.

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Proto Royal Jelly - The Sequel