Spiral Knights - I'd rather pay subscription fees.

I'd rather pay subscription fees.

24 replies [Last post]

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 09:17

Doomdragonz

Legacy Username

So here's the problem, you could buy 50 dollars in energy, and craft a few hundred things and just be out.I understand a few hundred sounds like a lot, but look at any other MMO and this is not the case. I'm not saying Spiral Knights shouldn't be unique in it's crafting system, it's levels with tiers and all is different from many mmo games I've played but the fact is no amount of money could actually cover everything, which is very bad for business on three rings part. Any other game I've ever seen can be covered with money ( and not much ), and it's because some people just don't want the hassle of the free feature.

I think a $5 a month optional fee should cover all personal energy costs. If a game as big and versatile as say runescape can be 5 bucks, this fairly simple game should be able to as well. It's not a QQ factor, it's a - people aren't going to play this game if they either have to dish out 50 bucks a month to be a serious t1-t5 crafter, or get extremely lucky on Unique Variants to be able to sell for their energy. Many people, myself included want to just dive into a game, and do everything they can constantly. This game doesn't allow that without a whole lot of money, or if you get good mats down in the clockworks, a LOT of trading time.

Also, I think energy should also still be tradeable and buyable by people who subscribe, but only for trading purposes.

Edit- I've also had a few friends already say 5-10 bucks a month would be no issue to them, and I'm sure three rings knows this game is fairly simple and could charge lower costs than huge mmos ( WoW, Everquest, warhammer )

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 09:20

zazabar

Legacy Username

Uhh, if you are crafting a

Uhh, if you are crafting a few hundred items, you should be selling those items and buying CE back, if not selling directly for CE. There are plenty of people in the game who have managed to become completely independent with a starting bank of only $5 in energy.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 09:22

Doomdragonz

Legacy Username

What if you are say a guild

What if you are say a guild leader and want to help out your members? What if you want to create multiple characters for yourself, and deck your friends out in t5? Point is, you can't without spending real money.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 09:25

zazabar

Legacy Username

Decking friends out in T5 is

Decking friends out in T5 is the equivalent of outright buying top tier gear in other mmos, which in some instances can go for hundreds of dollars... Not to mention, Three Rings still needs to break even on this game. They had a team of seven working on this between 2-4 years. That's at least $700,000 in just staff costs that they need to recoup. A $5 a month fee with the number of current players wouldn't be enough to make that back anytime soon, especially since there is 0 cost to get into the game.

In my opinion, the current system is fine.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 09:30

Doomdragonz

Legacy Username

The point is it cannot be

The point is it cannot be done, World of warcraft you can at least be good enough to run the latest tier for instance, this game? You have to be a marketer just to make the game "free" I'm not saying there aren't ways of making CE on your own, I'm just saying any other game I've EVER seen makes it possible to play unlimited with a fee, and no need for selling anything.

And they aren't going to get THAT many more players if they look this game up, hear about it, and the only things they hear are " Omg CE sucks! " and " No auction house " game populations will greatly rise with a happier player base.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 10:34

Metaknight

It might be interesting to

It might be interesting to have unlimited CE accounts for a monthly fee (or unlimited CE for a month for a one-time fee). There would have to be a caveat: Your player is not allowed to trade items with anyone, in any manner. You could cancel your subscription and keep playing with the same character, but the restriction would stay in play.

I'm sure theres some cons to this, but off the top of my head, it doesn't sound terrible. Not sure what a fair cost would be, but it would just be for hardcore folks.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 10:35

Mcasx

Legacy Username

Casual

I like the way this game is -casual- I see the point though, but I do prefer the way it is now, we'll see in the future what changes because the game just recently opened to the public. But atm you can non-stop play even at tier1, unless you have to craft something, then you'd probably have to stop for the day when your @tier1. So yeah, I prefer the way it is because it's more casual.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 10:47

PotatoGolem

Legacy Username

not the same

Hi all,

In my opinion you can't compare this game to other mmo games in this way.
It doesn't make sense because in this game your gear is not just your gear, it is equivalent to your class, level, skills, and playtime.
Those other mmos you are talking about don't let you craft your friends top tier skills, they don't let you craft your friends up to lvl 40 so they can level to 50 from a higher starting point.

That is essentially what you are asking to be able to do here ...

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 11:15

zazabar

Legacy Username

Potato but it a better way

Potato but it a better way than I could. Starting off at the highest level is kinda silly, and takes away half the fun of the game (opinion).

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 11:17

adrian783

Legacy Username

i don't really agree, i think

i don't really agree, i think this game is more suited for metered play. sub fees makes people wanna squeeze as much as they can for their money. and i personally don't really wanna do runs after runs in a day.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 16:50

#10

cheeserito

Legacy Username

I, personally, would like to

I, personally, would like to see the option for a subscription. But because it's not like other MMOs, the subscription would have to work in a different way.

I believe that the best way to approach a sub would be this*:
-Make the sub between $10 and $15/month (depending on how much Three Rings wants to compete with WoW, I guess; but imo $5 wouldn't be enough)
-Don't give unlimited CE to the sub payer, but instead lower their cost for elevators/revival/etc. (probably lower it by half)
-Give them a flat number of like, 2k or 3k CE for the month (maybe even up to 5k, but I think it should be a bit less than what $10 or $15 worth of CE currently is).

*Please note that this is my opinion, and this is probably the way I would set it up if I were a dev (but I'm not).

If you really wanted unlimited CE for a monthly fee, I think you'd have to shell out at least $25/month for it, given the current going rates for CE, and you wouldn't be able to do that which you are arguing for. Because they would HAVE to restrict you from trading with anyone, otherwise there would be absolutely no reason to actually play the game, when you can just get someone who pays to do everything for you (perfect example: If someone in your party doesn't have enough energy to continue on in the run, you can pick up their 'tab' and pay for them; if you had unlimited energy, and no restrictions, you would be able to pick up the tab for your three party mates, and they would never need energy, ever). Everyone would rush to be Tier3, and it would result in having nothing to do after the first two weeks.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 16:57

#11

SirNiko

Legacy Username

I already pay a monthly fee.

I already pay a monthly fee. I buy 5 bucks of CE each month and spread it out. It is way more than enough to play every night and craft some goodies.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 17:00

#12

Arimal

Comparing Spiral Knights to

Comparing Spiral Knights to runescape is a tragedy of the highest magnitude, just saying.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 17:23

#13

Critical

I can see where you're coming

I can see where you're coming from, but it seems as Spiral Knights decided to stick with micro-transactions. To convince them to change their form of business is moot. If you think about it that way, you're making your OWN subscription fees by purchasing energy with real money on your own convenience, unless you don't have a bank account or something of the sort.

The potential revenue for micro-transactions can have huge benefits for some well known companies (regrettably, Maplestory is on that list). So for now, I'd say you can choose whatever your "Subscription Fee" would be.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 17:35

#14

hamiltond465

Legacy Username

Comparing Spiral Knights to runescape is a tragedy

*cough*

Anyway, I don't really care about the issue on hand, (I make far more CE than I use just by playing) but why are you all saying CE? If anything were to be unlimited on a monthly plan it'd be mist energy.

Easiest way to set this up in my opinion would just be to make elevators essentially free (energy wise) to play the game. I'd keep the energy cost for crafitng though.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 18:55

#15

Doomdragonz

Legacy Username

Did anyone actually read?

Did anyone actually read what I said?

Original post - "I think a $5 a month optional fee should cover all personal energy costs" "Also, I think energy should also still be trade-able and buy-able by people who subscribe, but only for trading purposes. "

This meaning everything that would cost you energy would now be set to 0. It's not an unlimited amount, mainly just covers lifts, and alchemy costs.
You would still need to gain energy otherwise to trade. ( One thing is I suppose you could be given 100 mist energy daily still )

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 19:03

#16

King-Tinkinzar

I would hate to have a

I would hate to have a subscription... Limiting my gameplay further, ya know...

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 20:02

#17

Softspoken

Legacy Username

Doomdragonz, alchemy is the

Doomdragonz, alchemy is the major energy sink of this game. Gates are an energy sink too, but not nearly so much as alchemy. 'Free alchemy' will pretty much destroy the current economic model. You'd get a half-dozen people buying a $5 subscription (Normally what, 1600 energy?) and then alchemizing 5* equipment for everyone and anyone that provided the materials and a fee for the recipe cost. (Which in about 6 alchemizations, is already a gain of 200 energy.) Now consider that there is no reason for them to stop at 6 people. In about an hour, such a player could have made an incredibly large amount of crowns because they /didn't/ have to pay for the 10,000 CE they just consumed.

The only way this would be possible is if all equipment they alchemized was bound to them on creation, or if they were barred from trading any items with anyone. And even then, it's a massive loss of income to the developers.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 21:15

#18

PotatoGolem

Legacy Username

you still dont get it

If alchemy costs are made unlimited or decreased or whatever in any way it will be exploited.
Monthly subscriptions can be canceled.
The only thing keeping you from instantly reaching the end of this game is getting enough energy to craft up the chain to 5 star equipment
If i can craft with impunity or with vastly reduced costs, I play free for a while to save up mats, buy a sub and craft myself to 5 star everything, then cancel my sub, OOO gets no monies and i am teh uber.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 22:15

#19

Njthug

Hmm

Unlimited Ce = Ce is worthless makes everyone just get subscriptions not a good idea in my view.

Lets think logically for a second:

1. If 10 players have unlimited ce what will happen?
2. They can buy out the whole Crowns to Ce Market
3. They can make ce be worth 100 Crowns for 100ce (Only because they have unlimited)
4. Prices of mats would either sky rocket or decline
5. Three Rings will go broke and most likely have to shutdown this game.

If you are willing to spend 5 to 10 dollars a month just spend it on Ce and play as much as you can with it, and I am certain if you play wisely you can make that amount work for you.

I saw a post someone suggested half price elevators and 3k Ce a month for a 10 or 15 dollar subscription monthly. Honestly, I can see Three Rings adding a subscription for 3k Ce a month, but it really wouldnt be needed since its not hard to buy 3k Ce a month especially if you keep your paypal or w.e info save then its basically 1 click.

My View:

The system is fine how it is...its one of the most outside the box systems I seen which work very well.I played Runescape, and I was level 122 or 124 on the game (F2p) I made over 300mil+ in that game, and you easily can not compare Rs to Sk. Runescape has a different business style as well compared to Three Rings.

Summary:

Dont Support

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 07:53

#20

AscendantOat

Legacy Username

Some constructive refinement

I think it works pretty well as-is, but I prefer to refine ideas rather than reject straw-man conceptions. Consider the idea in its strongest form, not its weakest; whether or not the strongest form is viable, it's much more likely to yield valuable insights that way.

Here are my thoughts for refinement and discussion:
— "Many people, myself included want to just dive into a game, and do everything they can constantly." This seems like the heart of the suggestion, and is valid in my opinion. While players can "build their own subscription", some people prefer to not have to worry about it. Sort of like how some people prefer unilimited cellphone subscriptions to pre-paid, even if pre-paid is cheaper. They're paying for the freedom to not worry about minutes.
— Alchemy costs would not need to be covered to allow continual play. Personally, I think of CE as being synonymous with crowns; to figure alchemy costs, I just multiply the energy costs by an estimated conversion rate. It's still a lot cheaper than buying straight from a vendor, and I don't have to worry about vendor stock once I have the recipe. So, if free alchemy breaks the game that much, how about we consider a subscription that doesn't cover alchemy rather than rejecting the whole subscription concept outright?
— The subscription would have to be balanced to be attractive but not invalidate microtransactions. Some people would skip the game due to a lack of a subscription model, others prefer to have no time constraints on their play.
— Constant play passes wouldn't even have to be subscriptions; they could also come in ascending sizes like microtransactions, with a daily pass less cost-efficient than a weekly pass, which is less cost-efficient than a two-week pass, and so forth. Since people like monthly subscriptions, monthly passes could be the most efficient and have an auto-renewal option.
— Free elevators for the subscriber seems to me to be the simplest model that allows constant play. That does not mean it is necessarily the best, but it works as a baseline for discussion. That is, it does not invalidate the subscription model if additional freebies would break the game, because additional freebies are not required for constant play.
— Elevator passes would keep microtransactions very relevant. People could still get by for free as they do now, they could get by with cash like they do now, they could get constant play for a flat rate . . . and some would purchase CE and the elevator pass. This is because the two models give different benefits: microtransactions cannot provide worry-free elevator use, while a pass would not pay for alchemy, revivals, or party tabs.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 09:27

#21

cheeserito

Legacy Username

3k CE is a little under $10

3k CE is a little under $10 (the only option being 3.5k CE for $10), and quite frankly I'm fine with the system as it is. My boyfriend and I paid $10 and split the energy between us, and we're pretty self-sustaining now. But having a sub option wouldn't be a bad idea, imo. And like I said previously, it would be $10-15 for the 3k CE AND reduced costs of everything that requires energy (but only by 25-50%, anymore than that and it would probably be pretty devastating). But in this manner, the people who pay their sub wouldn't feel like they're on the same level as the FTP members, which is really what they want. Because really, what point is there to paying for a free game, if there's no benefit to it?

Someone mentioned making it unlimited mist energy, I believe? That's somewhat reasonable because you wouldn't be able to flood the market. But you'd still be able to do all the alchemy, so again, you would have to NOT be able to trade with anyone.

"Did anyone actually read what I said?

I DID read what you said, and $5 is simply TOO low for a sub, especially for what you're demanding. Even if it's not a limitless supply of energy, if you brought all the usual costs for energy to 0, it would be the equivalent of having unlimited energy.

Why would you even need to be able to trade energy if you no longer have a necessity for it? Did you even read what you said? Or hell, what I said? And what are "trading purposes"? "Oh, they should still be able to trade/buy energy, for trading purposes only." What does that even mean? There is literally NO reason to be trading energy, if you don't have to use energy for anything anymore ever.

To the person who said they'd hate to have a sub: You wouldn't have to! :D It would be optional, just like the micro-transactions are now.

EDIT: The person before me mentioned making the elevators free (totally didn't catch that the first time I read it, somehow), but keeping the costs for everything else the same in a sub. I think this model could also work, as you would still need the energy for crafting and reviving. But for continuous play purposes (which is, in fact, what most people really desire), all you would need is free elevators. The cost for the sub should still be over $5 though ($10 would be pretty great, but I'd still be willing to pay the $15). Any maybe, just maybe, giving them 200-300 CE for the month.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 09:33

#22

impsycho3

Legacy Username

Maybe something like this?

I'm thinking adding an option to pay a $10 a month subscription should net you something along these lines:

Some flat CE 2-3k (Point is some flat CE for subscribing)
CE cost for creating items is reduced (10-25%)
CE cost for doors / elevators is eliminated.

With something like this around you really wouldn't have to worry about those subscribing wrecking the entire econ for those who don't. At the same time it does provide some nice advantages to those who do by allowing them to just run through the clockworks to their hearts content. The extra 2-3k Flat CE could be used to trade for crowns / make things. The CE cost reduction for creating things also makes it so the CE you do get lasts longer than the CE other people (non subscribing) get, making CE go farther overall...

Just what i think would be a good idea.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 14:41

#23

Ilikiki

Wait, your complaint is that

Wait, your complaint is that you want this to be subscription-based so that you can craft all the stuff you want so your guild can be decked out in phat gear?

Are you out of your mind?

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 19:50

#24

Doomdragonz

Legacy Username

Do any of you truly read?

NOT UNLIMITED. Set to 0 is much different from unlimited. Right now anyone can join the game, drop 40 bucks, and get all t5 anyways. Making 5 bucks a month, even 10 and giving benefits many people would enjoy - and probably want to keep. There could be other things included with a subscription, which I am not sure of nor going to theorize right now. Money can already get you thousands upon thousands of energy, it's just the amount of energy compared to the amount of cash that drives this game to be criticized heavily. Whether or not my idea is a good one overall, which some of you state good points, change will be needed to give this game a good reputation. No players means NO money. Think of that, they are going to go completely under if people are NOT WILLING to pay 10k for 100 energy, ( it's already gone from 3k, to 4.5k in a couple weeks )

@Cheese - Energy costs, not crown costs. Not the cost of crowns. Run into a recipe? You still need crowns. In my idea, crowns would not be set to 0, it's not so much a personal cost, more about trading. You would still need to buy mats, recipes, farm mats, farm tokens, level up gear. they would NOT get t5 the second they started the game, they would still have to grind like everyone else, just no alch, or elevator costs.

Also, I like Impsychos idea a bit as well. No lift costs, a flat amount of CE, and reduced alch sounds good too, and would profit Three rings greatly.

Edit -" I think a $5 a month optional fee should cover all personal energy costs" is from the original post. Personal energy costs. Not market energy costs.

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I'd rather pay subscription fees.