Spiral Knights - Best Kiting Handgun? (Antigua vs. Blaster vs. Alchemer vs. ????)

Best Kiting Handgun? (Antigua vs. Blaster vs. Alchemer vs. ????)

25 replies [Last post]

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 18:00

Fenix-Stryk

Hello, hello! I've spent about 20 hours on this game over the past three days and made it into T2 recently with a Calibur. The Calibur is an affordable, reliable weapon that scales all the way to 5*, which is great... but it's also a sword, and my performance with just swords is lacking, to say the least. I fare far better with handguns and ranged weaponry... which brings me to the crux of my problem: a Proto or Stun Gun is not going to get the job done in T2, much less T3.

I'm looking for a handgun replacement, and my only preference is that it be a gun that allows movement while I'm using it. I'm not against using a single-shot weapon if it does good damage, so long as I can still move while using it.

Any advice or recommendations would help. Thanks in advance, friends, and good luck in the Clockworks.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 18:07

King-Tinkinzar

Antigua or

Antigua or Alchemer...
Antigua has higher DPS

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 18:08

Hazel

Hail Driver's Alchemer

Hail Driver's Alchemer line(the frost one) is good for kiting playstyles. Antigua 's lines are only good in specific areas, but they're worth getting as a secondary gun for their ideal situations. I've seen people using the Magma Driver line for large amounts of DoT and gunfire damage, but I think the usefulness of that weapon diminishes greatly. Another standard gunner loadout some prefer is Sentenza and Hail Driver.

And, finally, Valiance is a great weapon if you want something to do consistent run-and-gun damage in any situation.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 18:09

Tisiphone

For Handguns

If you're looking for mobility then the autoguns are out of the question ( Standing still while spraying out like 10 weak shots).

Magnus Line = 2 shots. High Damage
Antigua Line(s) = 6 shots. Low Damage. High against specialty
Blaster Line = 3 shots. Mediocre Damage.
Alchemers = 2 Shots (I think). High Damage. Status inflicting.

If you really want to play it safe, I'd suggest Alchemers (All but Prismatech). They do high damage, and even higher based on the status ailment.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 18:16

Pollywog

Blaster series if you don't

Blaster series if you don't mind the mediocre damage on all mobs. Really though it all depends on what you are fighting. Alchemer would be your best bet though, not for the damage, but for the status effects they inflict, thus making it easier to sword them. However, the damage can have a weakness towards some monsters, and element based mobs can be immune to it's negative status effects.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 18:17

Kawaii_Desu

Legacy Username

Magnus because of Piercing

Magnus because of Piercing Damage is in a spot similar to the Antigua.
Its usefulness is somewhat limited and is useful in a limited amount of places.

Also the Magnus is similar to the Punch Gun if you've ever used one.
You stand still WHILE shooting, but shooting doesn't take very long.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 18:24

Barcs

Legacy Username

my magnus kills me (well, not

my magnus kills me (well, not literally) ... yeah you stand still when shooting and have to be really carefully not to ever fire 2 shots too quickly to complete the combo and then have him reload for a while (obviously also can't move) .. worst bit is the piercing damage though, cos we get so many slime/construct levels it's quite often not useful ... but worst of all the piercing means it's not good against gun puppies - the truest evil in the world ... though, it is great on beast levels, knocks wolvers flat on their bum...

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 18:28

Pollywog

I have to disagree with

I have to disagree with Magnus. First off it has piercing damage, and stuff that's weak to pierce love to dodge. Second, immobilized between shots.

Only positive thing about the gun is that there are hardly any mobs in the game immune to stun, but that's not going to convince me to let it take up any of my weapon slots, that's for sure.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 18:57

Ezzi

Valiance for blasters Storm

Valiance for blasters
Storm Driver for alchemers

shock > fire > stun

If you wanted it for gun puppies though i'd get the Magma Driver.

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 19:30

Chris

Valiance > Storm Driver >

Valiance > Storm Driver > anything but antiguas

Tue, 04/19/2011 - 21:28

#10

Senshi

Legacy Username

Antigua...

Antigua doesn't make you -stop- while shooting, but it does slow you down. I prefer alchemers for mobile shooting. Antigua (and presumably its upgrades) is great in a party setting though where sometimes you just want to stand back and spray out damage (usually when everybody else's knockbacks are making one's own charged calibur attacks miss too much, at least for me.)

Antigua beats alchemers in it's ability to hit devilites and wolvers, since you shoot so much more quickly, you can frequently actually hit them. 'course it's terrible against jellies and machines and gun puppies are a -major- gun target.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 02:08

#11

HerpSomeDerp

Legacy Username

The cryo line of alchmers is

The cryo line of alchmers is great for moving and for freezing. Good for kites.

The Magnus is not something you're looking for as someone has suggested for reasons other players have mentioned. But the Magnus is a pretty awesome gun cause it usually knocks down the enemy(s) you hit with it which is a big plus. Even on regular shots.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 02:48

#12

Albs

Legacy Username

I've only tried the cyro line

I've only tried the cyro line so I can't say much other then freezing stuff can be amazing on the harder hitters however wolvers are always a nuisance so I tend to use the swing and shield method rather then kiting(I do kite if I have to). It all depends if I'm alone or with another but the cyro is good regardless. Having someone with the fire/pepper box with a cyro is nice as well damage wise.

I've one a bit of kiting on the blackhawk its not TOO bad but I'd say thats more for when you have a chance to pelt in the back rather then kite. I'm not sure which gun I'll be going on next, I'm set on swords for now. I have a magnus and I can make some of the basic alchemers, I have yet to try/see a valiance in action myself but it seems like it could be good. Honestly though, there are handful of things that are immune to shock , so I'd try avoiding those if possible. The tier 3 quicksilver(the silver lichens) will HEAL off shocks(if the wiki is correct on this). Fire seems good for any situation but the oilers.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 07:52

#13

Fenix-Stryk

After some time with a

After some time with a Voltech Alchemer, I think the only way I'll be happy is if I try out Firotech, Antigua and Blaster as well. I found out the hard way that you don't use Voltech vs. Quicksilvers... in addition, it's only ~23 damage per shot +10 for Shock procs, while my Calibur is hitting for ~78 (and at a faster rate).

Two comments:
1) The thought occurred to me that I could benefit from running Voltech + Firotech, as it would solve my Elemental Type issue (read: fighting Shock enemies would no longer mean that I can't use my gun). However, double gun would mean that I can't sword for damage when I get the opening in addition to still having some issues with dodge-happy enemies.

2) Alchemer's two-shot clip is somewhat of a limitation. I'm only getting off about one shot per second since I'm skipping the last shot (so I can also avoid the reload animation); the end result is that I'm only getting off about 4 shots every 3 seconds, which is ~100 damage + Shock, read: 33 damage per second. I'm wondering if Blaster and Antigua would put out more damage using the same kiting procedures.

Thanks a bunch for the advice. The Voltech Alchemer was by no means a bad decision.

I'll tell you how I feel about the other three when I get my hands on them.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 09:03

#14

JunKx

Legacy Username

i love my mega magnus and i

i love my mega magnus and i will be getting a callahan.
i have a faust/avenger/magnus so i literally always do bonus damage to whatever im fighting. granted those weak to piercing like to dodge, but they can't dodge the magnus. use it and see. it hits wolves always, and knocks them up/stuns them so they can't even attack or move. its very easy to kite with the magnus and it has great damage.
i used to use the autogun line, but that gun is just waaaaaay too easily dodged, and keeps you in place for too long so i swapped and i won't go back.

magnus also does aoe damage, so you can literally hit 2-3 mobs at the same time with 1 shot if they're grouped up, which they will be if you're kiting them around a battle arena or something

also you need to stop while shooting/reloading, but its very easy to shoot 1 bullet at a time, wait for literally like 1 second shoot again, you'll never have to actually reload but your firing rate will still be faster than shooting 2 straight/reloading

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 09:26

#15

Feynt

Legacy Username

Autoguns, kite like a man!

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:06

#16

Merethif

Volt Driver and Master Blaster

I'm kiting most of the time - so far I've tested Volt Driver and Master Blaster but I guess Storm Driver and Valiance are even better and I'm going to get those some day.

So basicly my recommendations are:

1. Blaster - most versatile

2. Voltech Alchemer - schock status is great for kiting as it slows enemies down but still let them follow you and be lured away (contrary to freeze)

Magnus is my secondary gun (I use two guns only, no extra slots) - I must admit it's good against wolvers (at least at T2) but not so good for kiting.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:01

#17

Thrull

Legacy Username

I would recommend the Antigua

I would recommend the Antigua line for kiting. Why?

1. The projectiles move more quickly and have greater range than Alchemer pellets (in my experience; not sure if range increases with higher star Alchemers).

2. The reload animation, if you ever accidentally trigger it, is extremely short.

3. The damage is moderate versus all monsters due to the mixed element type of Blackhawk/Silversix. They deal "decent" grey damage or "good" blue damage (I've heard Silversix does gold damage in Firestorm, but haven't confirmed this). This could be seen as a disadvantage, except for those looking to equip one gun rather than multiple element-focused guns. For a good breakdown of how mixed element damage works for these guns, check Fossa's post here: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/3161

4. Rapid fire allows you to easily and offensively trigger monster reactions. Robot shields & Wolver/Gremlin dodges are some of the more useful opportunities. That's right, useful! When you can force a monster into one behavior set on cue, you have control over that monster. You can make space or freeze/reposition them against a wall. A weapon that fires many projectiles without the need to reload has an advantage here.

5. As long as you're careful of the reload, you can do all of this without stopping.

That's just my opinion; the above is untested in the 3rd tier, but observed as consistent so far.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:27

#18

FossaFerox

Legacy Username

I wrote a long reply, and the

I wrote a long reply, and the forum ate it. How sad.

Anyway, brief credentials: I've leveled up and sold more than one of every 4* gun except for the Auto-guns (which aren't actually guns) and several 5* versions, never mind my own personal guns. I've used pretty much every gun side by side with every other gun in every situation imaginable.

To the OP, are you only looking for a single gun? Most gunners use three guns, one of each damage type. Some use two with an Antigua variant as one of them since it does split damage, though this is less effective than the tri-gun method. If you aren't willing to go this route and want a single well rounded gun, you only have three real choices (to avoid situations where a mob is strong to your gun).

Blaster line: Mediocre damage, but it's one of two guns at the 5* level that does normal damage. This means you can shoot anything and have it be effective. Three shot clip, move while shooting. Honestly it's nothing special and usually only used by sword/bomb users who want a generic gun for special circumstances.

Iron Slug: Built off the magnus line, this trades its piercing damage and ability to stun for splash damage. Again, it's well rounded because of its normal damage. The damage isn't terrible, but it feels like kind of a waste. This gun also forces you to stand still for a quarter second or so with each shot. It isn't like the autogun, but you will pause briefly as you fire.

Antigua line: Split damage means nothing is ever strong against all of your damage, though it also means nothing is ever weak to all of it either. Six shot clip, best range of any gun, and you can fire while moving. That being said, I personally don't like kiting with it. Trying to accurately place six low-damage shots while dodging death in its many forms is far more annoying than trying to place two high damaging shots. The lack of status effects and knockdown also bother me.

Frankly, the best kiting guns are the alchemers (shock and frost especially) but they do elemental damage which some mobs are strong against. If you don't have other guns to switch, you're kind of dead in the water.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:57

#19

Fenix-Stryk

@Fossa The original intention

@Fossa
The original intention was to run Sword + Gun, or Gun + Gun if someone could provide adequate rationale for dropping swords entirely (via a two-gun combo that works well in all scenarios). I don't plan on buying a third weapon slot as it is beyond my means.

I have yet to try the Firo+Vol Alchemer combo, but I'm left to assume it's wasteful unless it is able to keep both debuffs up and rolling on a target to keep the damage close to Swords. I do have a Blaster as well to hold me off between now and Antigua. Magnus sounds somewhat appealing if the damage and effects are enough to compensate for the quarter-second freeze per shot, but it can wait until later.

I'll see you around, eh?

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:09

#20

Kawaii_Desu

Legacy Username

Well actually Ferox, the

Well actually Ferox, the Magnus Branch splits up into two 5* guns.
The Iron Slug and the Callahan.
The Callahan keeps the piercing attack.

But doesn't Iron Slug still stun as well?

And I'm pretty sure the Alchimers are the only ones that can reload while moving.
And yes at 5*, the Alchimer's range increases.

Here's one personal issue with the Autoguns, or more specifically, their charge attacks.
The charge tends to suck in enemies.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:36

#21

FossaFerox

Legacy Username

Thanks Desu, I was compeltely

Thanks Desu, I was compeltely unaware the Magnus line split. I had no idea my UV Callahan existed. :P

I was talking about well-rounded choices that could be used in any situation. If he only carries one gun, and that gun only does pure, special damage then he can't use it on a third of the enemies.

Last I heard the Iron Slug did not stun. I have yet to find the recipe in game post-release, though.

Fenix, if you go dual gun you wouldn't want to go firo/volt since both do elemental damage. The main reason to carry multiple guns is so you can exploit your enemies' weaknesses to specific damage types.

Pure gun is a viable playstyle. You use gunslinger armor and rely on your ability to do damage from a distance. You lose the ability to knockback (bats become a nightmare) and do slightly less damage but you take less damage and can apply your damage with precision. I laugh a little when I watch my partner (who is dual sword) go after a healer in a group of enemies while I snipe the other through a gap in the mobs.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:41

#22

Merethif

can be reloaded while moving too

@Kawaii_Desu : Blasters can be reloaded while moving too.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 17:46

#23

Mkos

Personal experience with Silversix

I just recently made it to tier 3 with only one four star weapon being the silversix and I'd say it's helped me greatly even only as a single gun. My other weapon is a tempered calibur and honestly it's damage is meh at tier 3. It was doing about the same damage with my silversix's singleshots. And the silversix shoots six shots while the calibur has a three-hit combo.

The silversix allowed me to solo an entire tier 3 nearly without dying. One death was due to a connection problem and me being killed without being able to do anything about it and another 2 deaths were right in a small party button fight room that was right before the last lift to the core. It was a small room with brambles in all the corners as well as two totems in the top two corners meaning if I killed any zombies in the tophalf of it they respawned. Needless to say since I didn't have a decent sword I was boned for that room so I called in a friend who had an avenger to save me.

The silversix's all aroundness with two damagetypes was incredibly helpful. I was able to pretty much kill every single enemytype with it including beasts. Though I don't think I fought any gremlins on that run. I was doing about 45 damage per shot to slimes which are the most easily kited enemies in the game, about 55 to constructs and beasts, and 78 to undead and fiends.

One of its few drawbacks is that you slightly pause when reloading, but if you're good at counting bullets than that can be avoided.

If you only get one gun than I'd say the silversix or blackhawk would be a good choice. I haven't really tried guns from the other lines though.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 21:28

#24

Fenix-Stryk

Hmm... for some reason I

Hmm... for some reason I thought damage typing was more specific than Normal, Piercing, Elemental and Shadow. If that's all we have available, I imagine Sentenza (Shadow + Piercing) + Storm Driver (Elemental) would be a good combo.

I have a question about Alchemers (some seem to spread into additional bullets, but others don't), but I'll relay it to the Alchemer thread.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 23:22

#25

Feynt

Legacy Username

There's another issue with

There's another issue with going pure guns, that of the single target or minor splash effectiveness. Even the autoguns have this issue. When you shoot, you shoot the thing in front. Usually that's fine. But this makes it hard to impossible to deal with some groups where enemies who heal are hidden behind others who block (or just keep spawning, in the case of Jelly King who keeps throwing out more cubes). Swords don't have this issue, as they hit everything they swing through. The major advantage usually goes to guns though, because bringing a knife to a gun fight is usually stupid.

If you can swing a third slot, Sentenza + Storm Driver with "Sealed Sword variant of your choosing"/Winmillion is probably the ideal choice.

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Best Kiting Handgun? (Antigua vs. Blaster vs. Alchemer vs. ????)