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New Crafting Paradigm: Focus on Materials

15 replies [Last post]
Sun, 02/05/2012 - 11:50
Loest's picture
Loest

I have been giving it some though, and I have come to this conclusion: the crafting system in Spiral Knights is lame. It's not that the gear is lame or that the materials are lame or that the UVs are lame--I basically like the elements of the crafting process--I just think that these elements are not well leveraged. Specifically, the problem is focus.

Right now, the focus of the crafting system is on energy: the cost to create an item is part materials, part crowns, part finding and purchasing the recipe. But the cost of the crowns, recipe, and materials are are substantially lower, even in combination, than the value of the energy. Energy is the focus, and this makes some amount of sense: forcing players to use energy generates profit for OOO--and this is not a bad thing. OOO needs profits or the game goes away. I certainly don't fault the effort, and any proposed change to the crafting system has to acknowledge that just making things cheaper is not an acceptable solution.

So, what's the problem?

The first problem is that energy should be used to play the game. When you spend 800ce on a sword, that's 80 levels (or 700ce and 70 levels) of play that's just not happening as a result. This seems like a waste--and it seems contrary to the point of any game. In any game, the design should encourage you to play. In this game, this one element of the design--focus on crystal energy--encourages you to play less--to forgo playing in favor of building gear.

The second problem is that energy is boring. It's the out-of-context currency, the intrusion into the game's reality that economics demands, but which is basically not fun. Gel Drops are fun. Blaze Peppers are fun. Energy is not fun. It has no character.

Finally, materials are underutilized, period. I have thousands of materials sitting unused--likely to never be used--in my arsenal right now, and I know that I am not alone. As it is, they are almost entirely without value. They are essentially a currency, just like energy and crowns, but unlike crowns and energy there is no effective materials sink. The current crafting process uses a tiny number of materials, which leaves huge mountains of materials piling up, virtually worthless, in every corner of the game. This is, frankly, tragic--materials are a cool, characterful currency. They are far more engaging than either crowns or CE. Clearly, a fair amount of design work went into them. It is a shame that they are so underutilized, that they have been relegated to dark and shadowy corners while CE, pretty much the least characterful and most boring element in the entire game, is spotlit time and time again.

So, what's the solution?

The solution, I think, is to reduce energy's dominance over the crafting process and replace it with an incentive to actually play the game. I recognize that taking energy out of the crafting process entirely might not be reasonable, but I think that reducing the emphasis on energy and placing the emphasis, instead, on materials could make the crafting system more fun and more interesting, while keeping it similarly profitable. My proposal is basically this (with the understanding that some numbers may need to be optimized so that energy spent on acquiring items is similar to the amount of energy not saved on alchemy fees):

Leave recipe costs the same.
Leave crown alchemy costs the same.
Only allow Crystal energy to be spent on alchemy fees
Reduce energy alchemy costs for 2* items to 25
Reduce energy alchemy costs for 3* items to 50
Reduce energy alchemy costs for 4* items to 100
Reduce energy alchemy costs for 5* items to 200

Multiply material requirements for 2* items by 5
Multiply material requirements for 3* items by 10
Multiply material requirements for 4* items by 15
Multiply material requirements for 5* items by 20 (perhaps make exceptions for shadow-lair or other boss-only materials)

Allow players to spend additional materials when crafting to increase chance of UV and quality of UVs. I propose a system like this (using swords as an example):

When crafting, each item has a score in each of the following categories:

Damage vs. Gremlin
Damage vs. Fiend
Damage vs. Beast
Damage vs. Slime
Damage vs. Construct
Damage vs. Undead
Charge Time Reduction
Attack Speed Increase

Each material contributed to the alchemy process beyond the required materials adds to the score of each category with which that material is associated (for example, its star rating could be divided up among its associated categories: for example, a Silver Spring might add 1 to Damage vs. Construct and 3 to Charge Time Reduction, a Royal Core might add 5 to damage vs. Jelly).

In addition, each item has a total UV rating (we'll call this u) which is the sum of all of its category ratings.

The item first has a chance of getting three UVs equal to (10+u)/(10000+u)

If that fails, the item then has a chance of getting two UVs equal to (5+u)/(1000+u)

If that fails, the item then has a chance of getting one UV equal to (1+u)/(100+u)

If the item receives any UVs, the UVs it receives are determined by the ranking of its categories--an item receiving two UVs, for instance, would receive the two UVs with the highest scores.

For each UV, then (with rating r) there is a chance that that UV will be:

Very High, equal to (20+r)/(100000+r)

And, failing that, a chance that that UV will be High, equal to (10+r)/(10000+r)

And so on.

Obviously, my suggested fomulae are purely speculative, and the actual probabilities would have to be optimized based on drop rates and business plans to which I don't have access.

I believe that such a scheme would make crafting more fun. I think that the task of delving in the clockworks for amusing materials is more interesting than the task of accumulating some amount of Crystal Energy--and that can be made, fairly easily, to be just as energy-intensive (and thus just as profitable to OOO). It is obvious that this would improve the state of the materials market, making material gathering and resale a viable and interesting element of the game. Giving players control over UV generation in the way I propose would create a massive materials sink which would help keep the value of materials up. It would give us a fun alternative to mindless rage-crafting, as well as offering us a greater sense of involvement and immersion in the game--something the current crafting system greatly lacks. Finally, I don't think that a change of this type would necessarily cost OOO money. Again, it merely shifts the focus from forcing people to pay straight-up for better gear to forcing people to play the game so much to get better gear that the same amount of energy gets spent.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 17:04
#1
Melisan's picture
Melisan
...............

...............

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 12:11
#2
Loest's picture
Loest
Melisan:

Uh...what?

I was saying that I like the items, UVs, recipes, materials, energy, crowns, and alchemy machines--these are the elements of the crafting process. I don't think that they need to be fundamentally changed, I just think that they need to be handled differently.

Honestly, if you're not going to put even a modicum of effort into reading the suggestion (and your really blatant comprehension failure suggests that you are not) just don't bother posting. It's not helpful.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 12:22
#3
Melisan's picture
Melisan
Man you're touchy, I have

Man you're touchy, I have read your thread and the only thing I think is important is the increase in the amount of materials needed to craft. This would create a small crown sink for a while and make the non-boss levels more viable. Other than that I don't see anything new.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 12:35
#4
Loest's picture
Loest
Are you trolling?

I'm really curious, because the things you are saying are...inexplicable, in context.

Increasing the amount of materials needed to craft does introduce a very, very small crown sink into the game--more material sales means more money lost through AH fees, while fewer materials sold to vendors slightly reduces the amount of money entering the market in that manner

What you've missed, though, despite that I mentioned it specifically, is that materials are a currency unto themselves, distinct from both CE and Crowns, and that the one and only material sink in the game, currently, is almost negligible--which has led to materials being virtually worthless.

Moreover, that's not the only significant change I suggest--adding a mechanism by which materials can be used to acquire UVs would be a huge--and entirely new--material sink.

Finally, of course, the ultimate point is that adding sinks for materials means that more energy is spent on playing the game, which leaves room to reduce the amount of energy OOO needs people to spend on not playing the game (i.e. crafting) in order to turn a profit--and energy spent playing the game is pretty much strictly better than energy spent not playing the game.

If you really did read the whole post, I...don't know what to say. You pretty much missed all of it. Are you, perhaps, not fluent in English? Or a third-grader? Help me understand, here.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 12:54
#5
Psychodestroyer's picture
Psychodestroyer
@Melisan

You probably are, so I'm here to say don't.

Loest isn't trying to be insulting, he really doesn't get it. He's posting his honest-to-goodness opinion without euphemisms but without actually intending to offend you.

So don't rage, just chill. We all know nothing comes out of a rage war.

Both of you, continue this argument but without the shots at each others age/attitude/whatever, intended offence or not.

In regards to the actual suggestion, I got nothing. The idea sounds good, but I think the costs are a bit too low, and make getting 5* too easy. You could just buy everything you need in no time, and material stockpilers would profit hugely from this.

So I can't say I support this.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 13:00
#6
Melisan's picture
Melisan
You are very eloquent with

You are very eloquent with your gentle (yet poignant) put downs. You have some very well presented ideas here; your "mechanism" for the use of materials to acquire UVs isn't all that great. Allow me to look at your ideas an pluck at the gem (as is my prerogative) that is an increase in the amount of materials needed for crafting, blow the "detritus" from it and let it stand alone as the only thing that interests me in this post.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 13:42
#7
Skold-The-Drac's picture
Skold-The-Drac
Refining process in progress

@ Melisan you've spoken your peace twice now, feel free to move on.
@ everyone else if someone doesn't wish to honestly contribute and only point out a portion that they like, let them. Honestly they're not worth the effort of showing the light if they're going to just continue to repeat themselves.

@OP

I believe that the basis of your system actually is decent... and can thoroughly agree with the chance system for UV's. As this provides more of a material sink and more usage of the hoards of mats people have created. It requires people to better acquaint themselves with the clockworks in order to get what they want.

Concerning the energy problem, having ce only usage will hinder new players to an extreme. So I have to say that shouldn't be allowed until people get to 3* items. This is when obtaining ce is viable as an option moreso than at the beginning.

Concerning mat requirements, I think you've got a very good concept of how mats should work, however, may I put forth my own proposal in the heart of this concept? Mat requirements increase when the item is maintained in the recipe. Let me better explain via example.

The Shivermist Buster Line:

  1. Freezing Vaporizer recipe
    1. 5 green shards
    2. 2 gel drops
    3. 1 gel core
    4. 1 frost gel
  2. Freezing Vapo mk II
    1. 25 green shards
    2. 10 gel drops
    3. 5 gel cores
    4. 5 frost gels
    5. 1 hailstone
    6. X5 for all items which appeared in prior recipe

  3. Freezing Atomizer
    1. 75 green shards
    2. 30 gel drops
    3. 15 gel cores
    4. 1 brute core
    5. 5 hailstones
    6. 1 perfect snowball
    7. X3 for items that appeared previously and were in original; X5 for items only in prior recipe

  4. Shivermist Buster
    1. 150 green shards
    2. 60 gel drops
    3. 30 gel core
    4. 5 brute cores
    5. 1 rocky core
    6. 5 perfect snowballs
    7. 1 everfrost
    8. X2 for mats all the way in original inclusion;X3 for (would be) mats that started inclusion in 3*; X5 for priors

      Would this system work?

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 14:01
#8
Darkbrady's picture
Darkbrady
Generally agree with this

Generally agree with this concept, although the proposed energy costs won't happen. Maybe hope for somethin' along the lines of 500~700 ce for a 5*, but not 200.
The mats though, I do agree that the amounts needed should be VASTLY increased and/or another use put towards them.

The problem with this is that tokens are in the same area, just building up and up and up until you find yourself needing a free 5* mat that you don't have enough of anymore. Other things should be able to be done with mats, and the mat craft costs should definitely be increased, especially if that does come at a trade off of a slight ce decrease, which would be nice. It's not as if people would want energy any less; as you say, they'd just use it on other things straight away anyway.

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 00:35
#9
Vivix-Core's picture
Vivix-Core
[]

I have mixed opinions on the ideas for this thread; I agree with the idea of increasing the material sink on crafting items, or finding a more extensive use for materials in crafting. I'm not sure if changing the current UV algorithm is a good idea, but I do like the idea of knowing what my chances actually (or approximately) are of getting one UV or another. I don't like the idea of decreasing energy prices, and I don't like the idea of being unable to use mist to craft.

Everything beyond this point is just me explaining briefly why I feel one way or another on the statements above.

I haven't been playing very long, and I already have more of most materials than I know how to get rid of, with the exception of green and dark shards, which I often find myself giving away to friends when they decide to ragecraft for UVs. I can empathize with the desire to have a usefulness for materials beyond the very quickly and easily surpassed crafting demands for various sets of equipment, even more so easily surpassed when you consider the abundance of materials (at comparably negligible prices to that of a single unit of 100 energy at any given time) that can be acquired via the auction house. An argument could be made that higher-rarity materials do sell for higher prices, but most recipes require 2 or less of any significantly difficult-to-achieve ingredient, and such materials are usually available via Brinks, too - if you don't want to spend money in the auction house. Personally, I hoard tokens and I'm willing to spend the crowns on ingredients for gear instead, because I adore the little spiral-on-hexagon design of tokens, but I'm sure that most players don't care left or right as long as they have the list of materials they need for that shiny new helmet when it's time to craft. That all said, yes, I definitely like the idea of making materials more useful and more important in crafting, or, alternatively, finding a use for them in something else, because these piles are going to turn into mountains over time for me in the same way they have for everyone else.

UV algorithm I'm divided on. Giving people a way to manually increase their chances of a UV could throw the market on items with good UVs all over the place. I don't play lockdown religiously, so it doesn't affect me in the same way it would affect the hoards of people that do, but I can imagine a lot more whining and moaning about how overpowered particular UVs are in PVP situations if the UVs are made to be easier (if only marginally) to acquire. I guess the possibility exists that being able to tailor your chances of a particular UV would decrease the whining, as the gear would be easier (theoretically) to acquire with proper UV loadouts, but whether or not people are complaining one way or another isn't really relevant to what you're driving at, although it would definitely come as a result. I like knowing my odds, but I don't like the idea of giving people an outlet to exploit in terms of flooding the market with particular pieces of gear that all have the same UV setups because property X with equipment piece Y happens to give max in Z. Probably best to just leave this one how it is, or perhaps put a tighter limit on what UV influence you can achieve even with the best materials being sunk in the process.

I think the energy prices should be left alone. If they were to change at this point to be cheaper, lots of people would be kicking themselves and complaining about having had to pay more for their armor than someone else who has not been around as long. That aside, the somewhat steep energy curve is very effectively serving its purpose, and fixing things that aren't necessarily broken might make players feel as though changes to the crafting system are taking developer time away from "new and exciting" content development (such as the implementation of ideas that keep being suggested and shot down over and over). The current roundabout solution to energy prices being steeper with tier is to try to get rid of your heaps of materials via the auction house, convert the crowns to energy, and use that to craft - but with the current overflow of all crafting materials (which as far as I am aware this thread is attempting to address) that's really difficult to do with any worthwhile payout. I don't feel as though dropping the energy cost is a good spot in which to make a compromise, but a quick, reliable, and profitable (read as: not simply throwing materials at a vendor because it's not worth the meager payout) way to dump these stacks of otherwise unused materials in exchange for crowns to get the energy needed to craft sounds like a feasible alternative to me.

Just my thoughts though.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 17:03
#10
Melisan's picture
Melisan
So you're saying that because

So you're saying that because i only chose to comment on the part i liked/thought was a good implementable idea that I’m not giving an honest contribution? Ok like Vivix-Core said "I agree with the idea of increasing the material sink on crafting items" I don't think the rest has much substance.
Now is that not a valid opinion? Do not patronise me Skold-The-Drac I know very well how to refine good ideas. "Only point out a portion that they like" What if that is the only point I feel has any validity? I prefer concise answers.
@Loest: I was not trolling, I made a flippant comment at the start, I was in a funny mood and I apologise.
@Psychodestroyer: Sorry, I'm so used to dealing with the morons here that I lost my way a bit there.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 18:14
#11
Psychodestroyer's picture
Psychodestroyer
Don't worry

I could tell. S'why I posted my comment when I did.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 22:41
#12
Wolfkit's picture
Wolfkit
I've actually concluded that

I've actually concluded that the low prices on mats is due to Brinks. If you can quickly nab that 5* mat off of Brinks, why bother dealing with the AH? And since there is a very low demand for most mats on the AH, their value hits rock bottom.
Ironically, the most common mats, 0* shards, are actually worth the most. This is because you cannot buy them from Brinks. And since you cannot buy them from Brinks, you must either farm them, or buy them from the AH. Due to high demand for them, shard are worth as much as 5* mats, if not more.

However, your idea for influencing what UV's you get could actually fix this. Rather than sell unwanted mats on the AH, players will use them crafting, to try for good UVs. This would at one time lower supply and increase demand, driving the price of mats up, and at the same time increasing the value of tokens.
At the same time, a possibility of slightly decreasing the energy requirement for crafting; if players are more likely to use up mats faster and unable to buy them as cheaply on the AH, obtaining mats will become a limiter in the crafting process, offsetting the need for energy as a limiter.

And as far as choosing UVs goes, if it increases the chance of obtaining UVs at all, it should have an almost negligible affect. And you shouldn't have much more than a 5% probability increase that you'd get a particular UV if you got one at all.
While UV determination should have a high enough probability that the average user will occasionally benefit, it shouldn't enable them to mass produce a specific UV. (An analogy would be big bushes and small bushes. Big bushes rarely drop coins, but drop enough that if you want to spend the time clear cutting, you'll gain a few extra coins per level. Small bushes drop coins much more often, and can drop more valuable coins, as well as hearts, to the point that there is a noticeable gain. The distinction here is that cutting big bushes is optional and gives a small payout, while you could almost call it stupid not to cut small bushes.)
Also, base materials in the recipe should not affect UVs, only mats added beyond the minimum requirement.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 22:59
#13
Severage's picture
Severage
@Wolfkit:

"And since you cannot buy them from Brinks, you must either farm them, or buy them from the AH. Due to high demand for them, shard are worth as much as 5* mats, if not more."

Buddy, you must've either found some new type of shard or have some crappy 5* mats. Shards are under 1 CE each, while good 5* mats like Nightmare Manes, Celestial Ore, and others are worth well over 10K. Even other mats that aren't from Shadow Lairs like Ghost bells sell for at least 1K each, so I'm not sure where you're getting that "shards are worth as much as 5* mats, if not more.".

@OP: I don't think CE Prices should be reduced THAT drastically; we'll have 5*s running around on their first week of playing, and loads of players demanding refunds for their 30,000 CE they spent on a few sets of gear, weapons, and trinkets. If at all, it should be very slight.

The best idea out of this post was definitely increasing the materials required...I'm tired of selling stacks of 500 Scrap Metal/Gel Drops/Gel Cores, et cetera to Vatel.

~Sev

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 00:00
#14
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor
On CE only for crafting~

The game as an economic system is more complicated than you think. Hundreds of knights whom have purchased ce use their 100 extra mist to craft 2-4 2 star items each day on each of their alt accounts. This in turn, lowers the price of 2 star items via inflation, and allows intelligent, auction house using, new players to get to Tier 2 and start farming JK. Not only does this lower the price of ALL 2 star items, but it makes the ones that are better cheaper. Brandishes can be found costing a thousand CR or less, while spurs are usually at least 2 thousand crowns each. Said process consumes a massive amount of materials, and helps to fulfill the endgame players' demand for UVs. Therefore, this update would only change the existing economic processes regarding material consumption and Unique variants. What would be nice however, would be some kind of new use for mats as a whole- like paying for missions.

@Severage-

Many 5* materials are indeed worth less than 0-1* materials that are used often- no, shadow lair mats aren't worthless, but reaper ribs are.

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 01:25
#15
Severage's picture
Severage
@Fehzor:

I gave an example of a non-SL material that was worth a lot...and even though Reaper Ribs are worthless compared to other 5* mats, they're worth more than most shards (70cr).

~Sev

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