Spiral Knights - Post your Experience or Observations with Hail Driver

Post your Experience or Observations with Hail Driver

38 replies [Last post]

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 18:53

The-Rawrcake

Someone was mad at me being a gunner and using a Hail Driver. He stated the gun was useless due to freeze breaking on hit.

I want to have a little experiment.

Everyone that has seen / used a Hail Driver, post below your experience or observations. Include wether it was experience or just an observation or assumption due to logic.

This might be my only post this entire thread, I am just merely going to observe. Anyone posting, negative or positive, is welcome and wanted! If nobody posts this would be a sad experiement :o

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 19:03

Demonicsothe

My first gun. Taught me the

My first gun. Taught me the pause n shoot of alchemer tactic. A great weapon back when I first started out, due to going solo most of the time. Allowed me to hopefully freeze one, then turn around to take down other mobs.

But once I learned more about it, it became a placeholder until I bought my voltech mk2. Still sits in my arsenal to this day...

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 19:35

Trying

I have used everything 2* and below

Basically you do as demonic said with the shoot and pause. You thin out the crowd and then kill them off one by one. You can also attempt to freeze healers to separate them from the mob they are healing if you have a long kiting area.
It's mostly used as a soloist weapon since it is the only weapon that freezes without needing to charge or the second swing of the troika freeze line.

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 20:26

Dark-Flare

Hail Driver +1

I know a lot of people complain about the freeze, but if you shoot directly at the monster, the ricochet doesn't break the freeze (and it can also freeze other monsters). Also, you need to do the pause-shoot method, which is what you do for all alchemers anyways, so if you pay attention, you can freeze monsters efficiently. This is much better for solo play, though, since others break the freeze often, unless they know how to take full advantage of it.

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 20:39

Encross

http://www.youtube.com/watch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbgzZ0tnIGs

Nuff said.

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 22:10

The-Rawrcake

Ah yes, that is a nice vid

Ah yes, that is a nice vid Spiral-Hipster :) nice demonstration of the clipping charge attacks seen in the beginning on the howlitzers from 100% > 0.

I did an arena today like that at depth 28, but it was polyps and flippin frost themed so no Hail Driver fun for me :(

Sounds like we are in agreement. I notice how we put emphasis on the shoot-pause > unload-reload. This makes much more sense, being someone who just got my Hail Driver yesterday this will come in handy :)

I would like someone who does not like the Hail Driver to comment below, if someone does not. This way we can get different sides. So far for the negatives I am seeing soloist weapon > group weapon (although, this might not affect some people. Myself included as a soloist).

If you would like to positively comment on the Hail Driver more, either way I am not stopping you :)

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 23:12

Bopp

a soft negative opinion

"I would like someone who does not like the Hail Driver to comment below"

A while ago, I was in love with freeze as a status, and got Shivermist Buster, Hail Driver, and Glacius. Nowadays I really feel the drawbacks of freeze. Namely, it hinders knockback and kiting, and it's so easy to break by inflicting damage (especially in a party). So I think that I might prefer fire or shock, or simply raw damage of the Nova Driver variety. (Of course, fire and shock have drawbacks too.)

I found Hail Driver hard to use, because freeze is the one status that is canceled by subsequent attacks. It's not spammable; you have to be disciplined with it. So I think that it has a high learning curve, relative to the other guns. And I have never bothered overcome that learning curve. (This is as much a criticism of me, as it is of Hail Driver.)

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 23:27

Demonicsothe

Point of alchemer is to clip

Point of alchemer is to clip ricchets. That means any prior freeze will be unfrozen with the second shot. Thus, any real dps usage of hail is to ignore the freeze effect and just dish out the extra bullets. The occasional freeze on the last hit and not canceled by your following shots, is rare. The only utility of it is to turn around and fight something else.

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 23:41

Metagenic

someone who does not like the Hail Driver

Alchemers should be about dps, right? All the other alchemers are fine, but Glacius is a much better freeze weapon than Hail Driver because it's way more predictable. With Hail Driver, you can break your own freeze with the second shot in the clip or even the bullet ricochets.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 00:00

Fradow

I don't hate specifically the

I don't hate specifically the Hail Driver, but similary to Bopp, I don't like freeze anymore. I'm a slow swords users, and no-knockback implies mobs retaliation in my face (instead of in the air). There is also the problem of shield-bumping, which is probably less a problem with Hail than with Shiver, and the fact it doesn't add any damage (because it'll almost always be broken before the end in a party).

Long story short, it has some use, but I find it to be more a beginner gun than one you'll use at advanced stages. Using it against puppies so they can't hit is nice, but Polaris do that just as well if you are concerned about puppies, and the other alchemers pack more punch for other situations.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 06:35

#10

The-Rawrcake

"Point of alchemer is to clip

"Point of alchemer is to clip ricchets. That means any prior freeze will be unfrozen with the second shot."

"With Hail Driver, you can break your own freeze with the second shot in the clip or even the bullet ricochets."

Are you using shoot-pause? shoot - pause - shoot - pause (or shield cancel in pauses). This way you do not have to reload and avoid breaking more freeze.

Also, Metagenic mentioned split bullets. Split bullets also have a chance to freeze, and shoot off and ricochet at random directions.

I'll stop though, I'll let anyone else give their opinions about their experience / what they've found with freeze.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 06:53

#11

Nordlead

I don't have a hail driver,

I don't have a hail driver, but I do know someone who uses at least the 4* version of it (not exactly sure what he has) at Vanaduke. I'm not a fan personally, but mostly because he leaves random frozen monsters around the level which means they won't ride my charge shots.

I'm not a fan of freeze in general unless we are WAY overmatched and desperately need room to operate. For example, I typically carry a Voltaic Tempest, which does best when all the monsters are close together. I know a lot of shiver users who will freeze them in place which greatly reduces the effect of the Voltaic Tempest since we can't clump all the monsters together.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 07:53

#12

Otaia

Magma user here; I only do

Magma user here; I only do the one bullet pause thing when I need to stay mobile and be able to shield. I usually spam the charge shot since I have CTR med UV and the charge shot has way better damage output. The ricochets are more likely to hit stuff and plus it's like getting 5 shots at once. The video posted earlier demonstrated charge spamming pretty well and it showed most of the monsters stayed frozen.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 07:54

#13

Kazook

Lockdown

The hail driver is my absolute favorite sidearm to carry in ld. The charge attack fired into a group can shift things in your teams favor quickly, and it feels so nice doing shoot pause shoot in 1v1 skirmishes until they freeze, then dashing in for the kill, or charging the hail driver up for a high chance of keeping them rooted and d oing significant damage. The freeze is strong enough that it works on skolver, still freezing long enough to pull off a charge shot.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 08:50

#14

Demonicsothe

@Rawr

I do use the shoot pause, but only to stay mobile. You completely missed the 2nd part of my post where I mentioned the split bullets and their freeze. And to do damage with alchemers, you HAVE to ricochet bullets. That's the entire playstyle of alchemers. If you want the freeze, you have to wait and watch for it. If you want damage, you can't be bothered thinking about whether your shots will freeze or not.

Unless you're surrounded by approaching monsters. But as an alchemer user, that's just cue to kite them into a huge crowd and charge some well placed shots.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 09:08

#15

Mohandar

I've used the 2* version and

I've used the 2* version and hated it, but alchemers don't shine until around 4* so it's hard to say. I see the potential in LD, but in the clockworks I'm inclined to agree with Bopp. When I first started out, I thought Shivermist Buster was da bomb (harr harr), also the reason I got the Cryotech. However, at some point I got much better at kiting mobs rather than relying on freeze to render them immobile, and I started preferring Ash of Agni for the extra damage. I have a Storm Driver and love it, though I'm considering a Nova Driver for comparison.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 16:05

#16

The-Rawrcake

"relying on freeze" Not

"relying on freeze"

Not exactly, it is just a very nice benefit. Just like you don't, say, rely on the shock of Storm. If you took it to a shock-themed level, you'd still do fine, all it is is a small loss in raw damage.

"And to do damage with alchemers, you HAVE to ricochet bullets"

I know it seems like I am taking you literally, but you put it in caps. The initial hits of an alchemer deal damage as well. Anyways, split bullets are random. If one goes and hits a monster freezing it, the next will most likely not be going in the same direction and go freeze another monster. Or just freeze one, or freeze none however your luck.

Freeze also makes it easy to repeatedly spam charge attacks, though I have found great use with freeze in the normal attacks.

"Shivermist Buster" / "Ash of Agni"

I don't see this as a good comparison. It makes sense, just does not make a good comparison. If you spam shiver when you could be killing things, yeah its annoying and you can say to yourself "wow, I could be killing these things." That is because there is not much to unnoticable damage output with the shiver as opposed to a ton with the Ash.

Hail Driver vs. Storm Driver. Same raw damage. One shocks while one freezes is the only difference. It is not like ash and shiver where one has extremely tiny damage output while one has a ton of damage output.

Plus if you do pick off monsters and get some frozen then ignore (by learning how to position split bullets and go out of your way to not break and single target the non-frozen monsters instead), they will take that ending freeze damage for a nice boost for when you have to return to taking down it.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 17:32

#17

Fluffyfoxxie

"I don't see this as a good

"I don't see this as a good comparison. It makes sense, just does not make a good comparison. If you spam shiver when you could be killing things, yeah its annoying and you can say to yourself "wow, I could be killing these things." That is because there is not much to unnoticable damage output with the shiver as opposed to a ton with the Ash."

As a pure bomber, I only lay down one shover to every 3 nitros/DBB if I REALLY want to keep something away from me (I usually don't even bother with shiver much anymor eunless I'm at vana, though, Voltaic Tempest is so much better in most other situations and slows enemies down significantly... Ash of Agni has raw DoT going for it.)

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 18:14

#18

Dark-Flare

So I'm seeing more

So I'm seeing more freeze-ricochet complaints. I did say in my other post that all you have to do is hit the monster directly center so the ricochet doesn't hit. Also, i think Hail is more of a utility weapon than a dps weapon (as most/ all freeze weapons are), so its best use is as a sidearm with other guns, bombs, or swords. Even a pure gunner should have another alchemer they can spam/ ricochet, so using Hail should't be an issue.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 18:28

#19

The-Rawrcake

"utility weapon than a dps

"utility weapon than a dps weapon (as most/ all freeze weapons are), "

it has equivalent raw damage to all other status alchemers, and just a bit behind a Nova.

It is a viable weapon to use to "DPS" (take down every day monsters effectively).

Just because there is a freeze doesn't make it automatically ultra damage nerfed... it has the same raw damage as the storm driver even.

"Even a pure gunner should have another alchemer they can spam/ ricochet"

You can spam / ricochet a Hail Driver.

I am a pure gunner and find the freeze useful even when optimally going for the max ricochet. On top of that, as stated before, it isn't like it is super nerfed in damage compared to other alchemers.

I also have a Nova Driver, but just for freeze-themed levels / certain groups.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 19:22

#20

Demonicsothe

"If you took it to a

"If you took it to a shock-themed level, you'd still do fine, all it is is a small loss in raw damage."

You compared storm driver to the one place where it performs less than optimal. I wouldn't rely on the freeze in any strat, except maybe jelly farms and other floors with a large amount of enemies in one spot.

"split bullets are random."

Not exactly. The ricochets fly to the left of your knight. I'm assuming that alchemer users have autoaim off, otherwise most try to ricochet bullets on that target. It is much more reliable than shooting straight at one monster, and hoping the ricochet flies off and hits something else. Controlled bounces, as opposed to hoping the random angle will let you hit something to the left.

To clarify my stance further, I have to say this. Alchemers are not aoe guns. The charge itself is, but normal attacks aren't. It may seem like the extra bullets cause an area of effect, but in reality it is still one bullet. Aoe would be something along the lines of polaris explosion, or autogun shots being an aoe in front of the user.

To reiterate, I'll use your Hail vs Storm. They have the same raw damage. But storm users will not be cautious of breaking freeze, and will freely bounce bullets on the target. Hail, by your tactic, and Dark-Flare's, you don't actively do so. Thus, the storm users will hit the target more times, due to ricochets. Even if the Hail does hit the target the same amount of times as the storm, the shock will out-dps the hail. Like I said earlier, you can't rely on the ricochet hitting another target that is not the original one, simply because the bullets bounce randomly. You could position yourself so the other monster is in the general vicinity of the bounced bullet, but besides the 90degrees to the left bounces, most enemies will be too close.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 21:05

#21

Dark-Flare

@ The-Rawrcake

Yup I agree with what you said, i think there were some misunderstandings:
-In terms of DPS, you can easily use Hail Driver to maximize it by freezing monsters and hitting them with other weps, etc, but I mean in terms of raw + status damage. As you said "It is a viable weapon to use to "DPS" (take down every day monsters effectively)." Freeze is not a status for damaging, but for crowd control/ utility.

Also, yes i know that you can still spam the Hail driver and use the ricochet to maximize the damage output. What I'm saying is that it's not ideal to do that with the Hail since it breaks the freeze, whereas shock, fire, or damage (elemental/ shadow) "overlap," thus being more "spammable."

So basically, I'm not saying it's nerfed, just that you could technically get higher DPS from other status/ damage alchemers. (Again only techincally speaking, I mean how can you argue with Blueflood's video?!)

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 03:29

#22

Metagenic

The big thing against Hail Driver is:

To maximize effectiveness with this gun, you have to use the shoot-pause tactic.

All other alchemers can be used exactly as the user desires.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 05:12

#23

Milkman

That's stupid. You can say

That's stupid. You can say that about almost any gun. To maximise its effectiveness with any gun, you have to use the shoot-pause tactic.

I think what you're trying to say is that the effectiveness of the hail driver drops much more than say a volt or magma driver if you do not use the shoot-pause method.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 05:15

#24

Metagenic

^ Yeah

I tend to word my ideas incorrectly, thanks for the correction

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 21:22

#25

The-Rawrcake

"To clarify my stance

"To clarify my stance further, I have to say this. Alchemers are not aoe guns. The charge itself is, but normal attacks aren't. It may seem like the extra bullets cause an area of effect, but in reality it is still one bullet. Aoe would be something along the lines of polaris explosion, or autogun shots being an aoe in front of the user. "

It does not matter how shiny it is. Aoe is aoe is aoe. If it damages 3 different monsters, then it is AoE. Alchemers have much more controllable and easier to use and better AoE damage than a pulsar. Area of effect =/= sprosions only and nothing else. Area of effect = area of effect. An area. Of effect.

"Not exactly. The ricochets fly to the left of your knight."

They do not split the same exact direction to the left of your knight. I am aware they split to the left, but you can watch them not always go the same exact direction.

"But storm users will not be cautious of breaking freeze"

Hail users do not have to be cautious of freeze. Believe it or not, there is not some magical freeze fairy that purposely directs all worse things possible to break your freeze.

"the shock will out-dps the hail"

Hail driver's effect is utilized for survivability, not damage.

"What I'm saying is that it's not ideal to do that with the Hail since it breaks the freeze, whereas shock, fire, or damage (elemental/ shadow) "overlap," thus being more "spammable.""

Again. You can spam the Hail and still have freeze-locked enemies, and enemies which have attacks interrupted or messed up by freeze. There is not a freeze fairy that is out to get you.

"So basically, I'm not saying it's nerfed, just that you could technically get higher DPS from other status/ damage alchemers."

Hail is for survivability. (inc freeze always breaks below my post) Why are we constantly looking at DPS.

"All other alchemers can be used exactly as the user desires."

Users do not shoot-pause or unload-reload whenever they please. There are guidelines for everything. Shoot-pause is the most common used for all guns, so it shouldn't be a giant leap from a Storm to a Hail in bullet spamming.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 21:59

#26

Demonicsothe

An uncontrollable area of

An uncontrollable area of effect. With bombs, pulsars, autoguns, you can control where the area is. Like I said earlier, split bullets are unreliable due to the random bounce in a general direction.

Exactly. You can't count on it to hit different monsters as you wish. The things you can do is: Position yourself so that the ricochet has a high chance of hitting the same target. Or, position yourself so that the monster you want to be hit is to your left, in that general direction.

Freeze does not interrupt. It really doesn't. The monster just sits there and attacks. Shock, on the other hand, will interrupt on infliction and every subsequent tick, if the monster happens to be attacking at that moment. Freeze lock is, again, unreliable. Spam bullets and ricochet? You risk breaking the freeze. Of course, you could get lucky and have every last bullet freeze, making the monster stutter step towards you while you hit it. But if you look at it this way, chance of freeze is good. Not 100%, but good. Chance of breaking the freeze? Always 100%.

Why are we looking for dps? Because when we argue that hail has the lowest dps, you refute it with the fact that it has the same raw damage, and is a viable weapon to take down everyday mobs. True, but the dps point still stands. You want to argue that Hail holds up fine, dps-wise, compared to other status alchemers. We are saying it doesn't. And because you said as a response to the following line by another poster:

"utility weapon than a dps weapon (as most/ all freeze weapons are), "

it has equivalent raw damage to all other status alchemers, and just a bit behind a Nova.

I believe you are wrong, saying that users always follow a specific set of instructions. Why do they follow it? Because they wish to. If someone wants to spam DA charges, who's to say they can't?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:37

#27

Jontlemen

As someone who predominantly

As someone who predominantly uses Hail Driver I admit that regular shot is somewhat unimpressive.
However, if you have good enough CTR to use the charge constantly it is god-like.

Your chances of freezing enemies are much higher and it makes it easier to get ricochet hits in.

Freeze an enemy
Wait until another enemy is right next to it to shoot another charge.
MASSIVE DAMAGE

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 16:26

#28

The-Rawrcake

"Freeze does not interrupt.

"Freeze does not interrupt. It really doesn't. The monster just sits there and attacks. Shock, on the other hand, will interrupt on infliction and every subsequent tick, if the monster happens to be attacking at that moment. Freeze lock is, again, unreliable. Spam bullets and ricochet? You risk breaking the freeze. Of course, you could get lucky and have every last bullet freeze, making the monster stutter step towards you while you hit it. But if you look at it this way, chance of freeze is good. Not 100%, but good. Chance of breaking the freeze? Always 100%."

By golly, have you listened to any of us? the chance of breaking freeze can be anywhere from 0-100% and there is a chance that, even after damaging a freeze, it does not break

Freeze does not need to interrupt when you aren't in melee range constantly. Also, if you are talking about zombie leaps etc, freeze stops those... Freeze is extremely reliable in other areas with melee-oriented monsters as well.

And finally, gosh, you don't spam bullets constantly with every gun. You shoot-pause more often with a Hail than anything, so you should have actually taken the time to read the multiple people's posts that said that you do not just spam bullets with the Hail.

I won't say anything else about this quote, you can read above posts because I do not have the time to repeat myself more than I am already.

"I believe you are wrong, saying that users always follow a specific set of instructions. Why do they follow it? Because they wish to. If someone wants to spam DA charges, who's to say they can't?"

Regardless, most gunners prefer shoot-pause anyway. Refusing to even try it is saying you aren't open for advice on what would make Hail better because you will do whatever you possibly can to rub dirt on it.

Raw damage. RAW damage. It has the same RAW damage. I am aware it does not have shock / fire / whatever for a boost in damage. It has the same raw damage. It is VIABLE to use to DPS, just because it does not have your beloved status damage does not instantly make it just terrible. Please do not imagine a Hail vs. Storm as SMB vs. AoA. That is an awful comparison if you are getting your ideas off of the person who did compare them.

"You want to argue that Hail holds up fine, dps-wise, compared to other status alchemers. We are saying it doesn't."

Having the same raw damage makes the loss nothing durastic. As I said before this whole post even, this is not a SMB vs. AoA situation. There is not a durastic loss of DPS - it is going to be lagging in DPS, but not by a giant amount. All it is sacrificing is the damage of a status. Nothing else.

Read above and notice how people that like Hail didn't just simple-mindedly call the gun terrible as a whole because of a lack of damage. If you actually had a Hail Driver and (if you do) were actually willing to learn a few things, then you can use the freeze as a giant advantage as most gunners with the Hail can and will tell you about it.

"However, if you have good enough CTR to use the charge constantly it is god-like."

Hail Driver with high chance freeze on the charge attack is a much better gun for spamming charge attacks. And it is easier to use with slower charge times.

"Because they wish to. If someone wants to spam DA charges, who's to say they can't?"

No, that is an awful comparison. Are you a wolver clone?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 17:01

#29

Demonicsothe

Go freeze something, not

Go freeze something, not shiv. And then hit it with anything. Are you going to tell me the freeze might not break? That's the chance of refreezing upon hit, by something that does freeze.

My apologies, i meant hit ricochets. Spam was a poor word choice on my part. However, you should still be hitting ricochets to maximize effectiveness of alchemers. You can also read my first post, and note where I said I learned to shoot pause. Disregard that piece of information as you wish.

Everyone knows the Ash is a dps haze, or to melt ice cubes. If you wish to lump me with other groups/people just because I disagree, go ahead.

Have I called the gun terrible?

And I'm curious, how is a longer charge time easier? I mean, in a situation where you didn't switch out your dmg/asi trinks for gun ctr. Is it so you don't have to click and let go often? Personally, I find that being able to charge and let go quicker allows me to shield faster, akin to having high asi.

Yes, I wear wolver line. Does that automatically make me a terribad person and a even worse player that only knows how to hack n slash? Will you bash on me for wearing an effective set?

I was arguing against your points in this thread, the ones I don't believe in. After all, how good is a discussion thread when everyone agrees on the same thing? But if you wish to make it personal, I'll take my opinions, thoughts, and experience elsewhere. You can have this thread to you and the people that agree mostly with you.

I was hoping this debate could be civil. Heated, but civil, letting both sides say their say. I, a wolver clone, will leave this thread and let you "win"

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 22:08

#30

The-Rawrcake

"And I'm curious, how is a

"And I'm curious, how is a longer charge time easier?"

I didn't mean it has a longer charge time. Hail has the exact same charge times as other alchemers (I assume @_@).

I meant, due to freeze and AoE of the charge, you can freeze parts of groups making setting up another charge even more perfect, especially when you clip splits.

"Yes, I wear wolver line. Does that automatically make me a terribad person and a even worse player that only knows how to hack n slash? Will you bash on me for wearing an effective set? "

I said Wolver Clone. Not smart geared swordsman. Wolver armor can be worn without being a wolver clone. Wolver clones shove their opinions about things which they have no experience etc as if it was valuable. They will say things like Polaris is the best and Callahan is a worthless gun because they think that everyone is a swordsman and uses the swordsman sidearm Polaris etc.

People misunderstand the difference.

"I was hoping this debate could be civil. Heated, but civil, letting both sides say their say. I, a wolver clone, will leave this thread and let you "win""

Again you took this more harsh because I was asking if you are a wolver clone and you didn't understand the meaning, but...

I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelers.

If you want to continue a debate then read below here and forget the rest:

It is hard to argue if you claim that Hail "always 100%" breaks freeze and you repeatedly say that the only way one should use an alchemer is to position it to double clip. An alchemer has so much more potential damage if you position it between two enemies, or use its ricochet correctly. If you have a giant group with simple pockets, why are you going out of your way to double clip single enemies and not take advantage of freeze? That doesn't make sense to ignore that and shoot-pause then argue that there is a freeze breaking issue with this gun. Also double clip does not always work.

Anyways, it does not matter if you double clip. You still just shoot off a single bullet, so that last part of the double clip might as well be the initial bullet. You get at least one solid chance for a freeze with every single bullet you shoot, double clip or not.

I have no idea what you meant by 100% of breaking freeze. You can easily avoid breaking freeze and using it to your advantage. Not every freeze you get results in breaking.

Finally, I disliked the DA comparison. There is only one charge attack. You do not have a choice between another charge attack on a single weapon. While shooting normal attacks, you have a choice between shoot-pause or unload-reload, depending on things like wether or not you need survivability or you need burst damage to quickly take down a mender.

You probably should have compared it to DA's normal attacks. You can use the first swing and shield cancel, and then you also have the choice of wether or not two use the second, more dangerous swing that proves useful if you use it right. You don't always want to use the second swing, but your goal is to optimize the use of that weapon so you should either first swing + shield cancel or finish the combo whenever it is the best situation.

I don't think you should say it is ok for a gunner to constantly go out of his way to only unload-reload and never try shoot-pause if he isn't used to it just to not optimize the use of Hail.

I also do not like comparing guns to swords. Same kind of thing happened when someone was comparing Hail vs. Storm or whatever status / Nova alchemer to a shiver vs. ash. We should just stick with guns.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 23:07

#31

Demonicsothe

Well, having a higher ctr

Well, having a higher ctr always helps, if you aren't sacrificing any other stats for it. Even if you just want to wait to position mobs, holding the charged shot longer makes no difference. It just allows you to let go with a charge to throw earlier, and thus shield/run, increasing your survivability.

Yes, alchemer users will always aim between U hitboxes. But then you assume that the split bullet won't bounce back on the first target.

I say break it 100% of the time, because that's what happens when you hit a frozen monster.

I'm not arguing your playstyle is bad, or that hail is a bad gun. I'm arguing that it performs less well than other alchemers. Single target scenarios, you clip bullets on that same target. Chances are good that one of those shots will freeze, but to ensure that, you can't clip the same target. Otherwise, every freeze on the first shot will be broken the the 2nd, regardless of whether the 2nd shot freezes or not. It is random, unpredictably so. That is my problem. The unreliable freeze which hinders one's ability to continuously clip ricochets, assuming you wat the freeze to stick.

In a large group scenario, say tons of retrodes/skellies. None of those are particularly dangerous. As a gunner, kiting should be second nature, right behind having a good aim. The freeze is not welcomed while circling the last arena room. By the time you move around, you approach the pack of frozen monsters. Not a good kiting strategy. In anywhere else, it is less detrimental. But the point of survivability still stands. Do you really need freeze? If you freeze part of the mob, you reduce the effectiveness of alchemers by taking away potential targets. Do you circle fast, keeping them turning in their tight group? The freeze might work well here, if you are so close as to be within melee attacks range. But if you are confident enough to do so, you shouldn't need the extra cc from freeze.

And that was in response to your views of hail being utility. I believe it to be unnecessary. It isn't as if you use hail as a chain to add a degree of challenge.

You say it is a viable dps. I agree, but there are others that perform better. Single target, nova and magma. Groups, storm.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 23:21

#32

Demonicsothe

2nd post

Because my phone gets laggy on things over 1600 letters.

I was comparing DA charge to DA swings. Charge is powerful, but the time it takes to charge could be used to swing and hit something.

I'm saying it is okay. Why? Preference for a playstyle. I want to whiff every 2nd DA hit? I'll whiff. I want to unload my clip on that skelly so it dies faster than pausing for that last bullet to reload, even though all I need is one shot.

Why is it bad to compare guns to swords? Is the decision to follow up/cancel a combo not the same as unloading the entire clip? Either you pause to increase dps, or to allow yourself to stay safe. Canceling Btb's last hit allows you to deal more pokes in the same amount of time. Canceling a heavy sword's last allows you to stay safe. Aren't those the reason for avoiding the reload animation for guns?

And I will compare other weapons. Or anyone can say that the magma/hail/storm driver is the best for inflicting its status. Or you could say that hail is the best gun for freezing. It is the only gun for freezing, so noone can argue that. And then you can say that it, being the only freeze gun, should be used above all others. Obviously misleading.

That shiv vs ash argument was indeed off, but you can't just disregard every other comparison following it, simply because it is not gun related.

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 15:14

#33

The-Rawrcake

Ok, thank you Demon for

Ok, thank you Demon for keeping this one more about discussion

"I want to whiff every 2nd DA hit? I'll whiff. I want to unload my clip on that skelly so it dies faster than pausing for that last bullet to reload, even though all I need is one shot."

The thing about using every DA second swing is that somethimes there might be a giant group and you know you would be in danger using it. It sort of guides you to know when to and when not to use the second swing, like the gunner shoot-pause or unload-reload instances.

A skelly only needing two bullets left to kill it is an example of the main unload-reload instance, which is more important to unload-reload even for a Hail. A mender is an example I might have used earlier, only needing two hits left. Might want to unload-reload and not give it time to get a heal off or bubble - definitely a guideline for when you should unload-reload.

Then there are also instances which you should shoot-pause to optimize your gun performance (survivability included in performance).

"I'm not arguing your playstyle is bad, or that hail is a bad gun. I'm arguing that it performs less well than other alchemers. Single target scenarios, you clip bullets on that same target. Chances are good that one of those shots will freeze, but to ensure that, you can't clip the same target. Otherwise, every freeze on the first shot will be broken the the 2nd, regardless of whether the 2nd shot freezes or not. It is random, unpredictably so. That is my problem. The unreliable freeze which hinders one's ability to continuously clip ricochets, assuming you wat the freeze to stick."

Other alchemers are better than the Hail in DPS definately. While solo, Hail is probably the best for survivability. With this, it is kind of a different comparison - if someone thinks the Storm is better than the Hail as a whole, that is more opinion-based.

Also, freeze can be useful even when going for maximum possible ricochets. You can get good freezes that will help in kiting or circling even during liquifying a group the quickest way possible.

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 15:23

#34

Demonicsothe

I addressed the survivability

I addressed the survivability points in my first post.

I'll summarize though. In circle kiting situations, freeze is detrimental due to leaving monsters like roadblocks in your continuous path. And since freeze does not interrupt, the ice could break at the same moment a mecha is charging. Ice breaks, mecha is free to move, it is behind you and the main group. Or you keep the monsters in a tight group by kiting real close, at which point the surv is not necessary, due to having enough experience to circle so close.

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 15:48

#35

The-Rawrcake

well freeze looks kewl <--

well freeze looks kewl <-- best argument so far

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 16:29

#36

Demonicsothe

Well duh.

See, if you had come out with that line earlier, I wouldn't argue with you for 20 some posts XD

Sat, 02/11/2012 - 12:17

#37

Tennis

---

The Hail Driver was my first 5* gun and even though I don't find it really useful now, but it still deserves a spot on my shelf. ^^

I see the HD as sort of a starter gunner's weapon, in PvE anyways.
It's has the least DPS of all the Alchemers and I see it as mostly a gun for safety, thus the freeze.
(Though many people said the ricochets defeated the purpose of the freeze, I found it froze often enough without ricochets unfreezing to still hold it's purpose as a freezing gun.)
BUT moving on with the game and becoming more experienced, the freeze is no longer needed if the player is smart enough to dodge and keep himself/herself out of bad scenarios.

For me at least, PvE such as FSC, is seen as something to make quick money out of.
To play for efficiency and speed, freeze is no longer needed.

It's sad but it's only due to these reasons that the Hail Driver is no longer a gun I use.

Sat, 02/11/2012 - 21:30

#38

The-Rawrcake

What I do not like about

What I do not like about lockdown and Hail is that skolver resist the freeze, vogs resist the elemental, and snarbs resist the freeze.

-.-

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