Spiral Knights - Barbarous thorn blade charge damage decrease

Barbarous thorn blade charge damage decrease

12 replies [Last post]

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 02:20

Auaiea

Not sure if this belongs in "Bugs" or "Arsenal" but...

Problem: 4* Dark Thorn Blade's charge attack is more powerful than the 5* Barbarous Thorn Blade's charge attack.

I first noticed this in FSC, as I've done at least 40 runs with DTB before upgrading to BTB. Since upgrading, it has reduced my efficiency while killing trojans or when attacking Vanaduke.

This is a comparison between the 4* Dark Thorn Blade and the 5* Barbarous Thorn blade. (Yes, heat levels are both at 10.)

I did a little bit of work and based on the following,

Charge attack consists of a slash and a number of projectiles:
4*: Slash + 6-7x projectiles (assuming 6 for this comparison)
5*: Slash + 8x projectiles

these are my conclusions:

The 5* slash is more powerful compared to the 4* slash, but only slightly.
The combined projectile damage (6x) of the 4* weapon is significantly higher than the combined projectile damage (8x) of the 5* weapon.
The negative difference in projectile damage is not requited by the positive difference in the slash damage.

Here are some example calculations based on damage table information:

Top floor of stratum 5 vs beast/fiend:
DTB: 147[*6] (projectile) + 293 (slash) = 882 + 293 = 1175 total damage
BTB: 89[*8] (projectile) + 312 (slash) = 1024 total damage
Difference: The 5* blade hits LOWER than the 4* by 151 damage. (-151 damage)

Top floor stratum 1 vs slime/construct:
DTB: 5[*6] + 9 = 39
BTB: 3[*8] + 10 = 34
Difference: -5 damage when upgraded to 5*

This is true throughout all damage gradients.

Also, for the hologram:
Contrary to what the wiki states, the hologram is purely aesthetic and does not contribute to damage at all.
Some sort of proof can be derived from this video. I have also tested to see if this isolated hologram deals any damage; it doesn't.

TL;DR: 4* Dark Thorn Blade has a stronger charge attack than the 5* Barbarous Thorn Blade because of the 5*'s reduced projectile damage. The 2*->3*->4* upgrades show increases in projectile damage, but ->5* weakens it. This hurts the 5* blade especially when using the charge attack to hit enemies that are further away as there is no slash to help buffer the difference.
Solution: Increase the damage of the 5* blade's projectiles. 800 energy and 30,000 crowns is a lot to pay for a weaker weapon.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 05:17

Stingz

Simple question of my own...

Is your 5* BTB fully heated yet?

Especially with a 5*, since it needs to be lvl 10 to be upgraded.
When it's upgraded, the 5* will have about the same damage as the 4*, except it is at level 1

It's probably lack of heat that is causing your problems, get the BTB heated to lvl 10, then compare damage

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 06:01

Metagenic

Wait

OP said that his BTB is already lvl 10

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 06:50

Nordlead

this information is on the

this information is on the wiki (though it is spotty), but what you claim with projectile strength is confirmed on the wiki.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 07:06

Bopp

Stratum 6 data?

5-star weapons are intended to be used on Stratum 6; 4-star weapons are intended to be used on Stratum 5. If you use a weapon on an unintended stratum, then it is weakened --- sometimes to the point where it is weaker than its precursors.

It is unsurprising that BTB would be weaker than DTB on Stratum 1. Even on Stratum 5, it's not very surprising. The original poster mentions noticing the same effect in FSC, but offers no concrete data from Stratum 6. There data on the wiki are incomplete, although things do look a bit weird at Stratum 5.

So I'd like to see concrete data from Stratum 6, please.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 09:33

Trying

I remember a while back some

I remember a while back some else also made a thread about this though I don't remember what the final verdict was.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 12:53

Nicoya-Kitty

@Bopp I'd challenge you to

@Bopp I'd challenge you to find another weapon that decreases in strength, at any stratum, when upgraded (excepting cases where the damage profile of the weapon changes significantly, like a different damage type or added status). From what I've seen in lower stratums a 5* will do a small percentage more damage than a 4*, and they'll start to diverge in S5.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 13:06

Bopp

got it

Compare Ascended Calibur to Leviathan Blade in Strata 3 and 4. Assuming that the wiki data are correct --- a nontrivial assumption, I know --- Ascended Calibur does a little more damage.

But I agree with the general sentiment here, that this is weird and undesirable, and deserves more thorough testing.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 17:29

Auaiea

Stratum 6

I did mention I had personal experience with both fully heated level 10 weapons in stratum 6 (FSC down to Vanaduke). I only used stratum 5 and 1 as examples since we have "hard" data for these areas. I WOULD try to provide hard data, but it is impossible for me since I already upgraded and don't want to bother making another...(unless this problem goes unnoticed and I lose my patience.)

What I do have is personal experience, which you will have to take my word for (or if you do have a DTB, testing it for yourself/me/us all would be nice):

It took me two DTB charges to take out a trojan. I can't kill a trojan with two charges with my BTB, needs a couple extra hits to finish it off.
I also have 2p'd Vanaduke with the DTB/BTB, and it took a significantly longer time for me to kill him. (Although I don't have the specific numbers for you, I can assure you they were lower after upgrading)
Finally, I've noticed the charge spikes dealt lower damage (same thing with the numbers here) to the slags when using it for knockback.

No, I haven't changed my gear. I have always run FSC with the same equips; the only change was the upgrade to BTB.

Since BTB underperforms in the specific area (FSC: Stratum 6) it is supposed to achieve superiority, in addition to underperforming through Stratum 1 and Stratum 5, I believe I have enough evidence to suspect BTB's charge to remain weaker throughout every other stratum of the clockworks.

If I have some time later, I'll try to fill out/confirm the rest of BTB's charge damage table.

Oh, and I read the post I think Trying referenced. The result was inconclusive, but I'm thinking if I provide enough information, someone somewhere will get something done.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 17:47

Espeonage

To simply state it (since no one else really 'did')

The swords have been this way.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 18:43

#10

Nicoya-Kitty

@Bopp Interesing thing there

@Bopp Interesing thing there is that the Levi is ahead in damage in S1 and S2, which makes it make even less sense.

Also, this is a good a place as any to remind people: be very careful when collecting damage numbers, as some monsters are unusually resistant to damage compared to their kin. Alpha wolvers are probably the prime example: they frequently take significantly less damage from the same attack. For example, a single DBB blast might deal say 115 dmg to a group of regular wolvers, but an alpha caught in the same blast will only take 95. There's also the mysteriously durable zombies in that one room in FSC, though I can never remember which one.

Take multiple samples, double-check that your weapons have no damage buffs, and avoid taking measurements in boss strata.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 19:04

#11

Xanafein

the durable zoms are in the

the durable zoms are in the far left top room of FSC depth 25, the one with the two trojans and the blas cubes

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 21:19

#12

Orbwanter

It's more likely that Dark Thorn Blade is the weapon that's bugged, not Barbarous Thorn Blade - BTB has projectile damage in line with Snarble Barb and Twisted Snarble Barb.

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Barbarous thorn blade charge damage decrease