I'm looking to replace my DA in favor of a pure normal damage sword (I don't like swinging a giant yellow dildo, or hybrids), and I wanted to know how Triglav and Sudaruska perform compared to DA and GF in general combat.
How are Triglav and Sudaruska in the performance department?
Sat, 02/11/2012 - 22:19
Sat, 02/11/2012 - 22:26
#2
I don't use weapon slot
I don't use weapon slot upgrades. 2 weapons is all I need, a normal sword, and an elemental gun (Polaris).
Sat, 02/11/2012 - 22:46
#3
consider instead
Instead of a normal sword and an elemental gun, consider:
* piercing sword and elemental gun
* shadow sword and elemental gun
Also, while I agree that one doesn't need more than two weapon slots --- my secondary character plays with only two --- a third weapon slot may not be as expensive as you think. You can get them for 150-200 CE, or the equivalent in crowns, very easily. If you are playing SK multiple times per week, then this is not hard to maintain at all.
Sat, 02/11/2012 - 22:46
#4
Ummm
If you don't like the DA, why would you like Sudaruska? It's basically a DA with normal dmg only + a slower charge attack that's twice as risky to execute.
Sat, 02/11/2012 - 22:48
#5
Bopp, what's wrong with just
Bopp, what's wrong with just normal damage? Why is everyone against it?
Sat, 02/11/2012 - 22:50
#6
Well
There's nothing wrong with normal dmg, it's just that specialized damage tends to kill faster. It won't matter a lot if you solo most of the time because monster health won't be high enough to make normal damage obsolete.
Sat, 02/11/2012 - 23:01
#7
I mostly run FSC, stepping up
I mostly run FSC, stepping up to shadow lairs soon. I'm going to change out my current armor as a result, to cover all defenses. That's why I wanted to go Levi or some other normal damage sword, to maintain versatility.
Sat, 02/11/2012 - 23:24
#8
Armour versatility does not
Armour versatility does not impact weapon versatility, unless you count bonuses.
Considering normal + polaris: Neutral damage to 4 family, effective against 2.
Pierce/shadow + polaris: Neutral damage against 2 family, effective against 4.
Since you are moving up to shadow lairs soon, 3 weapon slots should be chump change to maintain. Heck, some people even use the meager profits of ce RJP runs to keep it open.
Shadow lairs, you'll most like face every family, barring certain individual monsters. With 2 weapon slots, you can switch weapons real easy. So, not wanting to switch is not a reason to hinder yourself in shadow lairs. So, being able to deal effective damage to 4/6 families is in fact, a huge damage boost.
One can also argue that being able to effectively take down 4/6 faster is more versatile than being able to take 2/6 with the same speed.
It's also worth noting that the tips of suda/trig has a strong resemblence to the phallic head. More so than a DA
On topic for your title:
Troika line performs better than DA/GF against the monsters that resist elemental/shadow. And on neutral targets, the first swing is supposedly stronger by a bit.
Then there's the whole problem of having a longer recovery time, a misleadingly large tip which does not hit past the sealed sword line, and the drawbacks of normal damage.
Sat, 02/11/2012 - 23:53
#9
Re: Normal Damage
There's a really simple reason to use optimal damage on enemies rather than normal damage - efficiency.
Real world example: full party in IMF Depth 16 - using a DA you can kill a Retrode by yourself in 7 hits (3 basic combos + 1 hit). But if you are using a GF (no bonus damage, so essentially doing exactly the normal equivalent of a DA) it takes 9 hits. That is almost 30% more time to do the same work. More importantly, the second hit of the GF does not do enough damage to interrupt the Retrode. So in addition to taking longer to kill, they won't stop swiping/shooting at you in the process.
If you are solo there are more variables at play. First, it is going to make a more noticeable difference past Basil, which is where enemy defense can start to outstrip weapon efficiency. If you play with Max Damage bonus when solo then most of the time it'll be exactly the same number of basic combo hits with an effective weapon vs a normal weapon. No damage bonus to Very High and most of your hits will take more with normal vs effective. For low HP enemies like Scuttlebots, Menders and Gun Puppies, it'll be 3 hits instead of 2. For typical enemies it'll be 4 hits instead of 3. When solo I'm pretty sure you'll always be doing enough damage compared to the enemy's base HP to interrupt.
Sun, 02/12/2012 - 00:10
#10
Currently I'm using: Vog Cub
Currently I'm using: Vog Cub Cap/Coat, DA, Polaris, Grey Owlite, Elite Sword Focus Module, Elite Slash Module.
What I'm planning to switch to: Vog Cub Cap/Skolver Coat, Leviathan, Polaris, Grey Owlite, Elite Slash Module x2.
This will give me balanced defenses and maximum sword damage with Levi.
Sun, 02/12/2012 - 00:15
#11
.
You should be aware that shadow lairs are officially balanced for players who craft custom gear specifically for each one...so if you are putting together a "generic" loadout in preparation, you may find yourself at quite a noticeable disadvantage.
In most levels, you can bring a single damage type and deal neutral or better damage to >95% of enemies. For example: in the first shadow lair, piercing does improved damage to the beasts (including the bosses) and neutral to the undead. There are a couple lumbers in there, who will take reduced damage, but only a couple. And if you also bring an elemental gun with you, you'd be pretty thoroughly covered.
Crafting a single normal weapon is, of course, cheaper than crafting one for each damage type. But shadow lairs aren't exactly the best place for the thrifty, either, considering the cost of shadow keys...
Sun, 02/12/2012 - 00:49
#12
Not balanced. You are still
Not balanced. You are still missing shadow defence. And status effects. Part freeze and part fire. How about shock and poison?
There will be no loadout that protects wonderfully against all status/damage sources.
Consider that a max damage flourish/btb will do more damage than the levi on 2 families, similar damage against 2, and the polaris covering the 2 that piercing is ineffective again.
Sun, 02/12/2012 - 00:59
#13
OH MY GOD
@Bopp's FIRST comment... did you hear what you just said!!! YOU JUST SAD THAT YOU SHOULDNT HAVE NORMAL WEAPONS AT ALL.. ASSUMING THAT THEYRE OBSOLETE! AND THEY ARE!!! THAS THE WHOLE DAMN PROBLEM!!!!! normal weapons NEED to be buffed, so that theres an actual choice between normal and special damage :/
Sun, 02/12/2012 - 06:49
#14
You seem to be mistaken
You seem to be mistaken Diamondshreddie. He said "if you carry two swords". If you carry only one, for whatever reason (because you are cheap or because it's a side-arm, for a bomber or gunner), it's entirely valid to have a normal sword. Leviathan, Valliance and Nitronome are all normal and still viable in some situations.
Other normal weapons not being desirable for the most part is .... well, not the fault of normal damage.
Sun, 02/12/2012 - 07:27
#15
very simple
Tammytryhard, the reason for not using normal swords (and guns) is very simple: non-normal swords do much more damage. From their respective wiki pages, here are the damage figures for Sudaruska and DA (first swing, second swing, charge not including projectiles):
Sudaruska: 258, 321, 468
DA vs. undead/construct: 328, 445, 682
DA vs. slime/fiend: 234, 363, 600
Also, here you can see that DA combos maybe 10% faster than Sudaruska. So the DPS is much higher (about 50% higher), and defense is easier, and hitting fast enemies is easier, etc. Of course, there are other considerations, such as knockback and...looks?
Diamondshreddie, I'm not sure why you're so excited.
Sun, 02/12/2012 - 08:44
#16
Diamondshreddie
Normal weapons are NOT obsolete. The ones that are useful have special benefits (i.e. Levi charge, DVS poison, valiance knockback) that specialized damage weapons dont have.
Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:16
#17
:x
Normal weapons are NOT obsolete. The ones that are useful have special benefits (i.e. Levi charge, DVS poison, valiance knockback) that specialized damage weapons dont have.
And what benefits do Triglav and Sudaruska have, other than type versatility?
- Stronger neutral-damage first-slash.
- More knockback with charge attack [and rumor says 2nd slash, too]
- Triglav has an extra effect of chance of freeze on 2nd slash (yes, it happens) and charge attack.
That's about it. Triglav/Sudaruska charge attack is less safe, since it has a relatively small radius of effect around the sword and doesn't have a cancellable animation, the attack speed is slower.
In best case, Triglav's freeze/second hit would be used to interrupt an attacking enemy and freeze it in place so you can worry about other monsters while your current targets are frozen. More of a solo weapon than anything.
All the heavy swords have the same range, so you're not gaining any range using trig/suda, even though their models are bigger (DA/GF, Avenger/Faust have 'extra' range that goes past their model).
As stated before, Triglav/Sudaruksa are slower than DA/GF (which have equal attack speed to each other, by the way).
----
As someone who played back when the Khorovod was the final Troika upgrade and had a charge attack that had potential to do 2-3x the combo damage (it had rocks that randomly spawned around your player that each did damage - I could do about 800-1000 total damage vs Vanaduke's mask with charge attack)... The Sudaruska and Triglav are terrible shells of what they could have been. Such a disappointment when the Khorovod lost the rocks and those 'upgrades' came out. tsk.
As far as heavy swords go, the Troika line is nothing more than a placeholder for the Sealed Sword now. It's absolutely obsolete.
They're one of the few (if not the ONLY) weapons with a charge attack that does LESS damage than a normal combo, and their effects really don't make up for it either.
The only reasons other than preference (vanity, uniqueness) to use a Troika line is to have a heavy sword that can deal with with beasts/gremlins in the same stage.
Sun, 02/12/2012 - 15:38
#18
"Bopp, what's wrong with just
"Bopp, what's wrong with just normal damage? Why is everyone against it?"
Spiral Knights is a game where skill will weigh more than gear. For whatever gear you are missing, you can make up in skill. This is easily seen when people do things like FSC with proto armor on, solo. They sacrifice their defenses, but make up for it with skill in dodging.
If you don't feel like using specialized damage, then don't. Nobody is forcing you to. If you feel like walking into FSC with a full set of Royal Jelly, go ahead.
Going from a half specialized sword to a similar sword that is apparently slower in combos per minute and full normal is not extremely durastic. Now if you are gearing up for Shadow Lairs, those are kind of made for people optimizing their gear. Either way, shadow lairs cannot be farmed due to some very simple-minded greedy idea. So you should probably just look at random clockworks or FSC.
What you do risk using a specialized type of damage with a 2 wep slot only loadout, is not having a wide variety of monsters you can take care of.
There are obvious negatives to using a DA and a polaris, two elemental weapons.
Now let's say you use GF and Polaris. It might really annoy you that you are forced to use polaris to take out greavers / zombies etc.
If you do only have two wep slots, I would take the normal just because it would feel better. Otherwise, you can consider buying a weapon slot because they aren't too expensive.
Sun, 02/12/2012 - 17:52
#19
Mostly, wot Rawrcake
Mostly, wot Rawrcake sed.
@Bopp:
Darkbrady will argue that Sudaruska is not as bad as everyone thinks
Actually, if you'd paid enough attention to my previous posts on the issue, you'd know that I'll argue that it's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be, making questions/threads like this ultimately have extremely skewed and bias results, contrary to what the game is actually like.
Implication: Suda is horrible, terrible, god awful; might as well use Proto Sword lolfail.
Fact: If you like it, use it; it's good enough and the world won't end. If you only care about "teh badassezt damagez" go with DA/GF.
@Meta:
a slower charge attack that's twice as risky to execute.
Definitely risky (although it's easy enough to create a safe situation), but I prefer the charge over DA by far. DA charge just sucks imo.
Sun, 02/12/2012 - 18:13
#20
kidding!
"Actually, if you'd paid enough attention to my previous posts on the issue, you'd know that I'll argue that it's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be"
Darkbrady, I was trying to be lighthearted about all of these recent threads. Yes, I have paid careful attention to them. You and I have argued without disparaging each other. Although I disagree with you, I have defended you when others have disparaged you. I don't hold any animosity toward you. My summary of your argument is pretty fair, don't you think? It's almost identical to your summary of your argument.
"making questions/threads like this ultimately have extremely skewed and bias results, contrary to what the game is actually like."
You are right that threads like this end up with many people voting against normal damage, and very few voting for normal damage. Whether this is "skewed" or "biased", relative to the truth, depends on what the truth is.
"Implication: Suda is horrible, terrible, god awful; might as well use Proto Sword lolfail.
Fact: If you like it, use it; it's good enough and the world won't end. If you only care about "teh badassezt damagez" go with DA/GF."
If anyone argued with you that Proto Sword is just as good as Sudaruska, then I would certainly side with you. And if the original poster were asking about "teh badassezt damagez" I wouldn't advise him to go with DA/GF. I'd advise him to go with the Brandishes, in most situations. Cheers.
Sun, 02/12/2012 - 20:11
#21
Rawrcake: "Spiral Knights is
Rawrcake: "Spiral Knights is a game where skill will weigh more than gear."
Eh, only because the only failure condition of PvE is death, the game isn't that hard, and there's no real pressure to kill anything very fast. The skill cap and room for improvement in the game is actually not very high. A master player won't really be able to clear content much more efficiently than a fairly experienced player. But yes, I agree that in the current state of the game, you can clear all content with suboptimal gear.
Sun, 02/12/2012 - 23:19
#22
@Bopp:
I was trying to be
@Bopp:
I was trying to be lighthearted about all of these recent threads
My bad then, completely missed the tone!
It was fair enough but I think the difference I pointed out is the main reason the discussions about it turn into long-winded ten-mega-post-long debates, because either people misunderstand me or I horribly word what I really mean. I just wanted to make that clear.
Oh well, enter the drawback of emotionless forums :(
@Otaia:
I think that's mainly just due to the nerfstreams as of late. The game did used to be a lot harder, but they're apparently siding with people who are too used to typical non-skill based MMOs where the gear does all the work and there's little~no real skill required from the player.
@OP:
Bopp made a point that made me just re-read your post. If you're looking for just "a" pure normal sword, rather than specifically the slow swords, there's more to consider:
Suda>Triglav: If you like long reach and huge KB with stun effects; charge is risky, but pretty damn nice when you do it right.
Dread Venom: Very fast and has poison, but the charge isn't amazing (imo)
Levi: Decent middle-ground and fairly cheap to get a hold of, however the charge is bleghy and can annoy people, with no fancy/special effects.
Winmillion: If you want a fairly unique sword compared to the rest with fancy projectiles, but caps at 4*, not that it's much of an issue really.
Wed, 02/15/2012 - 20:09
#23
Going back to the DA vs
Going back to the DA vs Troika argument, it was mentioned How bad the Troika line's charge was. Triglav's is worse, due to sometimes freezing the enemy, making it's huge knockback pointless. DA's charge is infinitely more useful for taking out large groups of enemies weak to it and pushing them back,
Thu, 02/16/2012 - 16:27
#24
@ Caramel-Bear 'Triglav is worse because of freeze'
Triglav's freeze on second hit of combo (rarely) and charge (frequently) is almost always useful and not the negative it is declared to be (undoubtedly by non triglav users).
The second hit of the combo or charge usually interrupts a mob's attack so the lack of knock back is not a problem. A frozen victim is left either sitting pretty for another attack or you can switch target knowing that the thaw will cause another 100-200 damage. A freeze is especially useful on gun puppies.
In LD a second hit freeze is an all but guaranteed kill in a 1 v 1. Thawing wont cause any damage to a knight, so you use the time to line up another combo. Better yet, as recon you can take time to death mark before striking.
I just wish freeze procced more often TBH, it would go a long way to making this weapon viable in PVE and PVP.
Not being a Sudaruska user i can't comment on the merits of stun, however it has been reported that stuns can only result from a charge attack and not the second hit of the combo. If true this makes a Sudaruska inferior to the triglav in PVP, but perhaps of equal utility in PVE.
If someone knows better regarding the Sudar please confirm or deny its stun capability.
What will happen: Darkbrady will argue that Sudaruska is not as bad as everyone thinks. Everyone else will tell you to stick with DA/GF, or a Brandish.
For what it's worth, speed and DPS data can be found here.
And why do you want a normal sword? As long as you're carrying at least two swords, neither of them should be normal.