Spiral Knights - (Buff the) BIG ANGRY BOMB (and irontech/deconstructor too!)

(Buff the) BIG ANGRY BOMB (and irontech/deconstructor too!)

35 replies [Last post]

Tue, 02/14/2012 - 22:52

Fehzor

Original:
Should deal fire and electric and stun. Or maybe just 2 of those. Or even just fire or stun. But thats just my opinion.

Then it might be worth something, because at the moment, its more of a Mildly Temper'd version of nitronome.

EDIT:
Most people agree on BAB getting-
-Stun status
-Larger radius
-More damage

Most people agree on irontech getting-
-Less walk debuff
-Shorter fuse

Ideas that seem plausable for Deconstructor-
-Deconstructor upgrades from super blast bomb; is 4*, while Heavy deconstructor would be 5*
-Shock (or some other bonus) against construct

Tue, 02/14/2012 - 22:53

Imperialstriker

I'd rather they remove the negative speed on it... But this isn't a bad idea either.

Tue, 02/14/2012 - 22:56

Fehzor

I didn't think about that.

I didn't think about that. But if they did that, then it wouldn't fit its design very well... large, and hard to pull off, but worth it. And this is more interesting.

Tue, 02/14/2012 - 23:02

Imperialstriker

What about expanding the darned thing's extremely small radius then?

Tue, 02/14/2012 - 23:36

Fehzor

That would be another nice

That would be another nice possible buff. I suppose the bottom line isn't WHAT should be done but that something should be done. And this is just my idea of how to fix the bomb.

Tue, 02/14/2012 - 23:44

Imperialstriker

While we're at it, why don't we fix up Irontech with its even worse faults than BAB?

Tue, 02/14/2012 - 23:59

Fehzor

I suppose we're not actually

I suppose we're not actually fixing anything. Just pointlessly saying 'this is broken!' for the thousandth time, and hoping that of the ten million things that OOOs is doing, this one happens to be one of them eventually. Maybe if we make another thread, it will have twice the chances? Naw, I"m sure I've seen a 'buff BAB' thread before.

But that is a good point about irontech.

Irontech.... perhaps give it a status as well? I'm not too sure on that one. Letting you walk about with it might be ok, or perhaps have it knock down enemies better? I suppose we could always go the troll route, and have it deal no damage and just make a gigantic flash+noise with increased knockback and absolutely no knockdown, although I'm not sure that that would accomplish anything, and I"m sure there is at least one delusional person actually using it over nitronome. Ok, I take that back. I'm not sure if there is a single person using it. At least the troll route might increase its popularity.

So what do you think about this ImperialStriker?

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 00:30

Imperialstriker

I see the troll route leading to major griefing, but it'd be funny none the less.

At least less wolver clones would be raging about people bringing Nitro into a party, no?

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 06:18

Shue-Donnym

Wat

While we're at it, let's suggest that Deconstructors should be made elemental or norm/elem split to make them actually useful instead of just a blast bomb with construct bonus that stops at 4*.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 06:45

Dancinjen

I like the BAB bomb being

I like the BAB bomb being ridiculous. Then when I kill people in lockdown with it, they should feel really bad about themselves....

true story.

I have killed in lockdown with it.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 06:52

#10

Sexysaurus-Rex

Big Angry Bomb

As a bomber who takes this bomb on every run except for fsc (and ofcourse shadow lairs), i have discovered methods to work around it's weaknesses and disadvantages. the only disadvantage that seems to puzzle me the most, however, is its radius. in stead of adding a status effect, i would recommend increasing its radius to at least the size of the heavy deconstructor.

Now if increasing the radius size is too much to ask for from OOO, the addition of fair chance of causing weak/moderate CURSE would be fantastic, and really useful to bombers.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 07:15

#11

Sirenblue

lol Dancinjen

That's like killing anyone with the fan-o'-war alone in TF2

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 08:16

#12

Fauxhownd

Why does BAB need any sort of

Why does BAB need any sort of upgrade at all? This thing blows Nitronome out of the water. If anything, Nitronome is the one that needs to be buffed.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 08:26

#13

Fehzor

@Jen I used to kill people

@Jen

I used to kill people with the stickyjumper in TF2, taking double damage from everything... hated when they broke that.

@Ganon

Its interesting that you use it though, ganondorf.. curse would be way too strong. Perhaps just the fire as a buff, I'd like to see something differentiate it more from being a "bad version of nitronome".

Thanks for the feedback.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 08:35

#14

Iron-Volvametal

Hmm...

Well my Suggestions to Add to the Blast Bomb Lines:

Big Angry Bomb
-Damage Bonus Every Monster: High
-Causes Strong Sun on every Hit
-Chance of Causing Strong Fire
-Bigger Radius. I mean, it IS BIG Angry bomb, right?
-Shorter Fuse

Irontech Destroyer
-Slightly Bigger Radius
-Smaller or No Movement Penalty
-Shorter Fuse

Heavy Deconstructor
-Chance of Causing Strong Shock to Constructs(Like an EMP Blast)

@Tammytryhard Can't tell if being Sarcastic or too Uneducated...

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 08:34

#15

Iron-Volvametal

Huh...

First Double-Post...Must be the School Computer. ._.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 09:12

#16

Obsidious

A Bomb's Role

I think if we're going to be both commenting on on both BAB and Irontech, we need to define what they're biggest strengths should be, and what kind of roles they can fill in place of the Nitro.

Now I've already stated my opinion on both bombs in another topic, but I'm going to reiterate rather than copy and paste.

Irontech Destroyer:

Being someone who owns the bomb (Yes, I decided to get for my own reasons :P), the bomb wouldn't be that bad if it didn't have all three of its current drawback compared to that of Nitro. In all fairness, it probably best functions as a concentrated, knockback bomb, which doesn't too much disruption in terms of flash and spamming; that's what it SHOULD function as. Nitro lacks good knockback in chain with a non-disruptive flash (And in comparison between the two bombs, Irontech really does push Lumbars around). the primary issue is that it's just so unwieldy because of the slow speed in combination with the radius and fuse.

Some of the tweaks that Ironskullkid posted I agree with. Of the three drawbacks, the lack of movement makes it a pain, and while the long fuse might compensate for this by allowing time for other enemies to walk into the radius, its still a pain to try and deliver to the right, tactical spot. In comparison with good bombs that have slow walk speed, the Graviton series has a lasting effect (vortex), so even if the bomber doesn't get close before he's force to drop it, the vortex can still does it job after detonating. Irontech, not so much.

As for the bigger radius, as long as it isn't as big as Nitro, I think its all cool (Maybe have a bigger radius when it's upgraded); too big a radius would make it very disruptive. As for the fuse, I'm iffy on that. With two out of three drawbacks taken out or fixed, changing the fuse might be a bit much, mainly because those with high CTR would be able to spam the knockback effects WAY too easily. the bomb already has higher damage than that of Nitro, and having actually used, and spammed, it once in FSC, its already good for pushing back crowds of slags and creating some breather. The shorter fuse would make damage output and knockback rediculous.

BAB:

I originallhy stated in my last post that BAB should be considered much like a tactical nuke, and one suggestion for this was that its radius be made bigger than Nitro. having thought about it, I retract that statement, as well placed bombs might make arenas a bit TOO easy when it comes to killing the next wave. Still, I stand by the fact that BAB should have a reverse role from, and should probably have it's radiius as big as the the Nitro, but not bigger; it should be able to deal significant damage in one or two well placed drops, making bomb spam uneccessary; where else Nitro has moderate damage, knockback, and larger radius. Again, I'm try to find areas where Nitro's weaknesses are covered (We might consider Nitro as an all around damage bomb).

Increasing the damage output and radius would certainly work, while keeping the walk speed and fuse the same (It is a BIG bomb). I think we should avoid any status effects as much as possible since the Nitro series should be about pure, direct normal damage. Though curse seems to recognizable for the bomb being able to cause that, I just don't know. as is, I feel the there needs to be more variety in terms of direct damage bombs.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 09:13

#17

Alpha-Stevo

I think the title should be

I think the title should be changed to somethin' more general about these odd gimmicky bombs, since we're all discussing ways to make them useful.

I second the Normal/Elemental Deconstructer. It'd make it feel more Gremlin, that's for sure, and Bombers yearn for a blast-like Elemental bomb. Maybe remove the Construct bonus from it and slap it onto the Irontech Destroyer?

And upgrade the Bomb's alchemy path by making it craftable from a Super Blast Bomb rather than just a Blast Bomb.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 13:02

#18

Nitez

my ideas

BAB needs a bigger radius, even HIGHER damage about.. 1.2x to 1.5x higher than it it's right now, and finally needs stun effect.. Either strong or medium with high chance.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 14:03

#19

Kurapika

Maybe this?

Maybe keep BAB as it is and give it a curse chance to mobs? That would make it a very great bomb.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 14:24

#20

Orangeo

Isn't the radius equal to a

Isn't the radius equal to a control point in LD? I'd rather have a shorter fuse, more damage, and faster walking speed while charging. The only omph it has is the massive knockback. I can overcome the slow walking speed and lack of damage with mecrucial demo if I want (don't have yet), but I can't ever buff the fuse.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 14:40

#21

Iron-Volvametal

Wait, wait, wait...Even better Idea.

Since the Big Angry Bomb is so Unstable, why not make it have a Random Radius Field? It could be from the Size of a Proto Bomb to the Size of which that Surpasses Nitronome's by a little.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 15:19

#22

Fehzor

"the Size of which that Surpasses Ntronome's by a little"

The size being unstable sounds like it would make the bomb worse, to be honest. Then it would have "unreliable size"..

I'll change the title/update the OP I suppose.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 16:42

#23

Windsickle

Those poor Bombs

Here are my recommendations/suggestions concerning these poor Bombs:

(In relation to Nitronome branch)

Big Angry Bomb

Much greater Damage
Greater knockback
Greater knockdown
Longer fuse
Chance of Status Effect?
Larger/equal blast radius
Longer Charge Time/slower Charging Movement Speed

Result: The slower, longer, stronger-in-every-other-way Bomb.

Irontech Destroyer (and Irontech Bomb)

Weaker knockback
Greater Damage
Shorter fuse
Smaller blast radius
Shorter Charge Time

Result: D.P.S. Bomb (it's called the Destroyer) that specializes in quicker, slightly more concentrated attacks.

Heavy Deconstructor (and Deconstructor)

Make five Star upgrade
Shorter Charge Time
Smaller blast radius
Weaker knockback
Elemental Damage
Damage Bonus VS Construct: High
Damage Penalty VS Undead: High

Result: Much more like normal Gremlin Bombs. Super quick pop-out-of-the-pocket robot killers.

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 01:15

#24

Diamondshreddie

ALRIGHT!!!

what BAB needs is ALL of the following

-LARGER radius than the nitro
-a tad more damage
-normal (or not AS slow) walk speed
-chance of causig stun!
-an very slow charge time

for dire situations

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 07:53

#25

Aumir

+1 with the whole thread, and preferably would like Windsickle's changes to the 3 bombs.

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 08:10

#26

Juances

We could make it the 'sealed sword' of bombers with a random effect.

Dunno, a thropy weapon for fun.

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 13:07

#27

Skold-The-Drac

Juances=Genius again

As always, our Juances is a genius yet again. I can firmly state that I like that idea.

Fri, 02/17/2012 - 21:56

#28

Fehzor

I'd disagree with removing

I'd disagree with removing the walk speed from it. While this would be a buff, I feel that it would kind of mess with the idea of it being big and angry. Maybe thats just me.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 00:42

#29

Tengu

well yea, but the idea is

well yea, but the idea is that the bomb is angry, not the bomber.

I didn't make any other blasts besides Nitro, but I'm gonna start working on that list soon. From what I've seen I just don't like them.

I think...

Take walk speed decreases out of all of them. I hate that, and a bomber who stops moving gets hurt.

BAB should just be stupid-big, and light stuff on fire.

Heavy Decon should really be a robot/undead killer. I agree with the highs on both.

Irontech...well, what I think would be fun is a super-fast speed, small radius mob thrower. Imagine dropping a chain of tiny 1* sized rings that basically fling mobs like a Leviathan? How fun would that be in LD???

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 01:16

#30

Diamondshreddie

LOL!!!

@tengu

YES!!! XD if the irontech had like a 2-3* radius, the charge time of a catalyzer, movement increase while charging XD!!! SUPER KNOCKBACK!!! but little damage~ WOULD BE SO AWESOMEHAHAH

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 08:43

#31

Arkate

wow

you guys know, that the BAB radius being bigger than the nitronome will never happen? the BAB already does way more damage, and well, the BAB doing curse doesn't make sense, if any bomb should get curse, it is the gravitron vortex, and well, with everything you suggest, the nitronome would be to the BAB and heavy deconstructer a mercurial set to a mercurial demo set, another thing that players worked really hard for, and became a worthless piece of crap, all the way from the top of ladder, to rock bottom.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 12:32

#32

Imperialstriker

Ill just state what Fallout once suggested for BAB:

"It should follow the Nitronome's model. Nitronome's is a small radius, small knockback, short charge time bomb, with fast kiting. The BAB should have a large radius, huge damage, long charge time, and slowest kite speed."

I feel this would balance BAB while preventing Nitronome's from being outclassed at it's game.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 12:48

#33

Players-Guest

BAB....

THE BAB has the most damage from the blast bomb series though.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 12:58

#34

Iron-Volvametal

...

Atckwe, you've Obviously haven't Tried any of the Bombs. I don't even think you're a Bomber.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:06

#35

Obsidious

@Atckwe

Let's reiterate a few things here, so everyone's on the same page: the biggest issue with BAB and irontech is that they're draw backs far outweigh the each bomb's strength. Case in point, even with the BAB being (Last I checked the wiki) the highest damage bomb of the line, its slow kite speed, fuse and shorter radius really impacts its ability to be; it's just too cumbersome to use in exchange for the pay out.

I pretty much follow Fallout's idea of the BAB; nice, tactical nuke. It would not be EASY to charge up and plant, but if you ever managed successfully, as well as plant it right, the bomb SHOULD do some serious damage. Right now the slow kite speed in combination with the smaller radius really compound one another; aleviating the radius should fix the problem and put BAB as a single, high damage bomb.

Also, I did some research, and BAB's damage is comparable to that of the first swing from any heavy sword series (Suderuska, Sealed Sword series' neutral damage, etc), which from a standpoint, makes sense; the Nitro's damage is just the same as the first hit of a Levi. That said, all heavy swords are still easy to kite with to an extent, where else the BAB is just much harder to use. It might make sense to boost the damage to the second hit of the heavier swords instead; plus you could probably rip through neutral mobs faster than the BAB could, but that's all really debatable in terms of balance.

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(Buff the) BIG ANGRY BOMB (and irontech/deconstructor too!)