Do you think we could see a return of the normal defense trinkets?
Normal Defense Trinkets?
Fri, 02/17/2012 - 10:04
Fri, 02/17/2012 - 13:01
#2
Defence trinkets in general
Defence trinkets in general aren't terribly useful, so I'm not sure why you'd want this.
Fri, 02/17/2012 - 15:43
#3
Zelda
overpowering and collecting purposes 8)
Fri, 02/17/2012 - 16:10
#4
And stun.
And stun.
Fri, 02/17/2012 - 18:05
#5
.
I can vaguely imagine that someone might have decided at some point that because normal damage and stun are distributed everywhere, but other damage types and statuses only appear in a minority of levels, that normal and stun trinkets are "too versatile". I'll even admit that argument holds some merit in the case of normal damage (not stun)--though that may be changing.
And yes, Spiral Knights seems to overcharge for defensive bonuses relative to offensive ones, in pretty much all areas. Though exactly what the exchange rate ought to be isn't entirely clear. In fact, exactly what the exchange rate currently is is pretty muddy, too, considering all the weird and secret game math going on behind the scenes. So I'd advise taking all the "defense trinkets aren't worth it" talk with a grain of salt.
It'd be interesting to read a well-reasoned, quantitative argument for precisely how good defense trinkets ought to be (and then compare that to how good they currently are). Maybe I'll attempt to write one some day...
Fri, 02/17/2012 - 21:00
#6
I can see why most people
I can see why most people don't use defenive trinkets all that much, seeing that most people think they are useless. But from what I'm seeing wearing two of the same defense trinkets (such as two Royal Jelly Bands) pretty much gives you a defense bonus somewhat equal to a UV Max. Only reason I'm asking for the return of Normal defense trinkets is because I could use some Normal defense with my Radiant Silvermail and Divine Hood.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 00:44
#7
.
Based on bar length, each defense trinket gives a little more than a medium defense UV, which means two trinkets actually gives a bit more than a max UV. Status resist trinkets appear to be exactly equal to a medium UV (but resist UVs are larger than defense UVs when compared to armor innate stats, so the status trinkets are actually often a better deal).
I suppose it's possible we're in our current position because someone said "hey, defense and resist trinkets are each worth a medium UV, so clearly it would be balanced to have weapon trinkets that are also worth a medium UV!" But all UVs are not equal. The market value of very high ASI or CTR on a weapon seems to be rather higher than the market value of a max UV on an armor or shield. Plus, weapon trinkets apply to multiple equipped weapons, while each UV only applies to one, meaning a single weapon trinket is more like 2-4 UVs, not one. So if that was their reasoning, they need to go back to the drawing board.
Currently, I think that defensive UVs are actually reasonably good IF you stack them on top of a full set of normal/X armor (e.g. royal jelly bands on top of full skolver) with no UVs. But the way defense scales, they quickly become much less impressive if you have significantly less OR significantly more defense than that.
I think. Based on preliminary analysis of the most recent tests. But I've changed my loadout advice several times as new data comes to light, so that could easily be wrong. And even if it's right at the moment, it might change if they go through with the monster damage type adjustments they're trying on the test server right now.
And of course, offense is better than ANY amount of defense if you're good enough at whatever area that your risk of death is negligible and you just care about speed. Which means that people who are awesome (and people who think they're awesome) are basically always going to prefer offense unless defense is HUGELY better.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 02:59
#8
My two cents
The reason defensive trinkets aren't widely used is because T3 players train themselves to dodge, shield bump, use knockback to their advantage, etc; it's basically the "don't take damage at all" mentality.
If you take enough damage in T3 to need defensive trinkets to save you, then your playstyle kinda has a problem.
If you don't get hit, defensive trinkets are effectively useless because nothing's even touching you.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 06:38
#9
Bars lie
Bars lie
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 11:52
#10
.
@Metagenic: That's just untrue. The fact that someone dies in the game, ever, does not automatically mean that their play style has a problem. Even very good players who play defensively still get hit fairly often.
As I already said, defense is unnecessary if you are good enough that success is not in question. But that's a question of skill, not style, it doesn't make defense useless, no one starts out that good on day one, and not everyone who thinks they're that good actually is.
But we have a situation currently where most players won't equip defense trinkets even when they're going into a difficult, unfamiliar area where they expect to use energy revives. That suggests that defense trinkets are not good enough.
@Asukalanforum: I already linked fairly extensive empirical data that defense bars do not lie. If you believe you have convincing evidence that they do, cite it, please.
Possibly.