Spiral Knights - We understand that Pepperbox loses its PULL IN mechanic. Please get rid of the counterproductive knockBACK you ADDED, devs.

We understand that Pepperbox loses its PULL IN mechanic. Please get rid of the counterproductive knockBACK you ADDED, devs.

85 replies [Last post]

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 23:28

#51

Wuvvums

"Explain in point form what

"Explain in point form what merit exactly the Iron Slug has..."

It's just a fun gun that gives a nice little punch. Most of it is based off of preference and playstyle. I like the flinching, I like the speed the bullets travel, and it's been a nice gun to follow me the whole time through. My friend seemed similar in that she liked the style and the punch. No, I am not going to base it off of the damage and DPS because at the end of the day it just really dictates how fast you play, not how much fun you have with it.

"Explain in point form why you think the Pepperbox was overpowered before and good now..."

You see it had this bug that would suck in enemies and hit it with every shot it could on the charge attack. This was not intended obviously because the developers fixed it and it was never presented explicitly as a feature of the gun. Now it does what it's supposed to and I think that's fine. I guess maybe it's not fine for -you- because you're fixated on optimization and performance but as I mentioned before playstyle and preference comes into factors. People are going to of course aim for what they think are the best weapons but some of them go for what's their favorites.

I played an MMO before that was totally unbalanced and the caster and rogue classes were clearly flying through the game and beating everything in sight. I knew I was underperforming by choosing the melee warrior class but at the time that was my favorite class to be. Of course that game was a total grind, but sometimes people do choose something based on what fits them, instead of what was clearly the best choice. I didn't want to be a rogue or a caster, I wanted to be a warrior and swing the sword and such. Sort of like the same for D&D, I always had friends who found a way to minmax and optimize their characters while I was going for less combat-effective characters but more what suited my flavor. That's why I don't think the argument about what's the best setup is an entirely objective argument. You're going to have people who go for something just because they like that thing. That's what the variety is for.

If you don't like how the damage is for the pepperbox there are probably going to be people who like it just for what it is because they like fire-themed weapons, or gun sprays, or both and that happens to marry the two together. Or maybe they don't want to go piercing, or maybe they just think it's a pretty neat thing to get. That's why I got the iron slug and my friend did too. For us it's a good weapon.

Also I didn't see where you posted your DA argument so I can't really counter that. I just know that the DA had a broken affect that people saw as gainful to use, and they did, and then they were upset that it was fixed. The pepperbox obviously got the same treatment the DA did, and it's very unlikely that you can persuade someone to revert a broken feature.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 01:53

#52

Lomase

DA argument re-posted

DA argument re-posted here.

"Finally, what you said about the Avenger line is a different matter entirely.
Firstly, when people exploited FSC they understood it was an exploit or bug. They all understood that it was not meant to happen and people got the sword fully knowing that thy can bug FSC.
With the Pepperbox though, it was different everyone thought that is how the gun was meant to function. It does not open doors, it does not do anything, to the stages, that it was not meant to do. It sincerely looked like a legitimate weapon without a bug.

Secondly, back then the the Avenger line is also IMMENSELY Overpowered, with an ability both to provide both good mob control in a wide arc and deal massive amounts for damage with its charge in a crowded room. So everybody got this weapon.
The Pepperbox again is not like this. It did damage comparable to Brandish or Calibur charge at quite a short range. It was NOT good mob control and it certainly did NOT do massive damage to multiple enemies, it only did pretty good damage to 1 enemy.
Pepperbox even with the vacuum was generally considered to be underpowered hence why you rarely see one in any run.

We're not making this fuss because we want an overpowered weapon to still be overpowered after a nurf. We want an underpowered/average weapon to go back to being underpowered/average after an unnecessary change."

Actually now i see what you are saying about weapon balancing. In my opinion though it is not weapon balancing at all.

In your last post you said 2 things.

"I guess maybe it's not fine for -you- because you're fixated on optimization and performance but as I mentioned before playstyle and preference comes into factors. People are going to of course aim for what they think are the best weapons but some of them go for what's their favorites."

Also with your analogy to the MMO you have played before stating that you played a warrior class simply because you liked it with full understanding that your class's potential is not as good.

"I played an MMO before that was totally unbalanced and the caster and rogue classes were clearly flying through the game and beating everything in sight. I knew I was underperforming by choosing the melee warrior class but at the time that was my favorite class to be."

In believe that in the same way it is like this for you with the Iron Slug.

"It's just a fun gun that gives a nice little punch. Most of it is based off of preference and playstyle. I like the flinching, I like the speed the bullets travel, and it's been a nice gun to follow me the whole time through."

You have followed your play style and your preference just as I have followed mine and i respect that.

The critical question is this:

In a game should players be punished for their style of play?

Was it correct for you to receive less opportunity due to your preference of playing a warrior in that MMO? Where as people who preferred to play rogues received significantly more opportunities?

In a game, should you receive equal chance in contributing to your team / VSing against other classes as your warrior.
With your Iron Slug, you chose this weapon because it suits you BUT would it not be better if the gun which you chose, due to your preferences, gave you the same opportunity as all the other guns out there.

What I am talking about is what the Pepperbox/Iron Slug ought to be like and what you are talking about is if you perfer this weapon even if its not the best, its perfectly fine.

Also I understand that is it a bug but this gun was commonly regarded as balanced with the bug in it. I don't mind I guess if I have to change my play style to the new 'correct' version of the gun... At the moment though now that the gun has been 'corrected' it does a grand total of nothing except giving monsters a shove...

I would prefer if the box received its vacuum back and returned to its balanced state. However as long as they give the gun a fair go by giving something to it I would not mind at all.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 01:37

#53

Derpules

@Wuvvums

"You can say it nerfed the gun but it's making the gun work the way it's supposed to; it fixed the gun."

Yes. And "the way it's supposed to" is , well, too weak. The Antigua line was working the way it was supposed to before this patch; it was changed because "the way it was supposed to" was too weak.

If the devs just don't want a vacuum gun, fine, but give us something in return. (Something useful, not counter-productive.)

"If you don't like how the damage is for the pepperbox there are probably going to be people who like it just for what it is because they like fire-themed weapons, or gun sprays, or both and that happens to marry the two together."

Are those people going to mind if the guns gets buffed to the point where people who really just want an effective normal DPS gun will be happy with it too? I don't think so.

The argument you're using could be an argument against absolutely any buff. Switch AP to pure ele? Oh, but some people just like dealing split damage! Improve the Brandish line charge? Oh, but people who just like the idea of fast ele swords would have used them anyway! Etc. it's a non-argument.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 01:43

#54

Lomase

For those who just skipped

For those who just skipped over what I wrote because it is WAYYYY too long i recommend u read it its got relevant stuff in there =.=.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 06:44

#55

Dzxi

my 2c: i like the old charge

my 2c: i like the old charge better. hardly any of the shots hit now, and the knockback is kind of pointless.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 07:15

#56

Sternlock

How about compromising by

How about compromising by removing the knockback altogether?

A new vacuum gun would be cool, though.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 07:33

#57

Shoebox

The only thing this really

The only thing this really changes is that you have to hit them from inside the weapons range rather than at the edge of it to hit an enemy.

Though personally, I feel like making the weapon not do any pushing at all and just act like a normal interrupt would be best, since at any range the gun would be effective. It wouldn't effect DPS potential but it would also have the desired effect of not allowing people to hit full charge attacks through the use of a bug at max bullet range.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 08:01

#58

Derpules

Hmm

"The only thing this really changes is that you have to hit them from inside the weapons range rather than at the edge of it to hit an enemy."

1) That's a big change!

2) You don't just have to hit them from within range, but *well within* range, so that your last bullets don't miss because the enemy was pushed away. You kind of have to be really close now, and even then some will probably miss.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 08:10

#59

Shoebox

I have yet to meet to man who can outsmart boolet.

I always used the Autogun like that, it's more that people abused a bug by attacking from max range to hitconfirm and pull rather than spraying from mid/close range to ensure maximum projectile hits. It's not like its normal attack range is too short to hit anything with it, it's just the spread can be fairly unpredictable.

I remember the Autoguns pushing things to the left for a while there, which made them quite infuriating to use. They were still OP because of the sheer amount of projectiles though.

Then there was the brief moment where all bullets of Needle Guns flew out in the same direction completely randomly, meaning you had to be clipping on top of your opponent to get hits in.

They were still the best piercing weapon in the game even if they were impossible to use from a distance.

So yeah, it's not a big change at all.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 08:22

#60

Metagenic

Wait

Of course the people who own the gun are going to think it's a bad change; they were benefiting mostly from an exploit and they no longer can.

What exploit? The bug just made the weapon worth using; it didn't exploit anything.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 13:56

#61

The-Rawrcake

Well ok look the gun was

Well ok look the gun was worth using for its damage output.

Even if it is smaller damages in comparison to a blitz, one charge from it and bye bye lumber (or at least almost bye bye) which a Blitz cant do (slime and construct version of blitz needle)

Knockback makes that annoying because it is less of a use-the-charge-for-damage gun.

There was more to this gun than just a vacuum >.> If you are going to argue, be ready to explain yourself. Don't just say the only use to it was its vacuum, because that is simply not true. It haD other uses.

Get rid of knockback. We don't care if it doesn't vacuum, just get rid of the dang knockback. We can suffice without having the vacuum. We just don't. want. knockback xO.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 00:04

#62

Lomase

LOL Check this out I did some

LOL Check this out I did some damage calculations.

Damage of Blitz Needle Against Jellies in T3 (not Turret)
Damage per shot: 42 damage
Shots hit on average at Point Blanc: 15............................Total Damage = 630
Shots hit on average 2 blocks away: 9..............................Total Damage = 360

Damage of Pepperbox
Damage per shot: 70
Shots hit on average at Point Blanc: 8..............................Total Damage = 560
Shots hit on average 2 block away: 4...............................Total Damage = 280

Against Jellies(not turrets) Blitz does more damage.

I also took this weapon's new 'control' ability into FSC yesterday.

I discovered if there's fsc many zombies:

- Due to the small arc of the weapon, it is not safe to use if the zombies are spread out in from of you, you cannot hit them all. U stand there for 2 sec.

- Zombies will bump into zombies behind him upon pushing. So you could still have a zombie in your face.

- Risk of using it as is high because it has to start at point blanc to do anything.

- Damage is still very low when compares to most other guns.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 21:23

#63

Fehzor

To be quite honest, I've been

To be quite honest, I've been rather pleased with the change on re-evaluation. The only things that sadden are that they reduced the damage so much, changed it without any warning, and didn't notice that it was broken for over a year (surely they knew, I mean thats like just now noticing that T3 gun puppy bullets came out like they do). However, it still does a ton to constructs- namely lumbers, and now more to mecha knights. Its charge is better at keeping you safe, and at dealing damage to enemies in clusters.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 22:23

#64

The-Rawrcake

Lomase, that is a little

Lomase, that is a little confusing.

Is this due to the new knockback? You are knocking them out of the following shots?

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 23:21

#65

Lomase

The the damage calculated was

O I see the forums automatically took the spaces out. Fixed. I just wanted to show damage on moving jellies on the Needle and Pepperbox

@Fazhor

Actually There are a few things that is a problem as I have explained before.

- Massive damage reduction.
- Almost useless push.
- Higher risk to user, since you start at point blank instead of ending at point blanc.

I don't even get that there is to like about this gun anymore.
Of course it still does massive damage to lumbers and puppies, but the gun wasn't too powerful before and why was it changed.
In its current state there are many better weapons out there.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 23:14

#66

Derpules

@Shoebox

That was then; this is now. Weapons can't be assessed in a vacuum, but by comparison with other weapons. Before the glitch was fixed, the Pepperbox was far from OP, but was worth using. Now it is less worth using. Simple as that.

I could not care less how things were when everyone played SK on Amigas powered by handcrank dynamos; that has no relevance to the matter at hand.

And sure, it's still usable. Any weapon is *usable*. The question is whether it's worth using.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 00:08

#67

Lomase

@ Shoebox1. Read the rest of

@ Shoebox

1. Read the rest of the post before posting ... you simply address issues which have been discussed before.

2. It's not like its normal attack range is too short to hit anything with it, it's just the spread can be fairly unpredictable.

The normal attack of the Pepperbox has always been pretty bad. The benefits (if any) of the normal attack does not justify the risk and damage of using it. It's got below average damage, high standing time, low chance of fire, low chance of stagger. Every other gun will do better.

3. It's more that people abused a bug by attacking from max range to hit confirm and pull rather than spraying from mid/close range to ensure maximum projectile hits.

It was not OPed even with this so called 'bug' and you can hardly call this 'abuse' since we never knew it was a bug but a legitimate feature of the gun. If you remove the push but don't reinstate the vacuum, I believe Pepperbox will need some damage adjustments to be on par in terms of risk vs damage as all the other guns. But as it currently is, this massive decrease in damage in return for some not well thought out mob control, this gun is far from balanced.

4. I think you are thinking of the Needleshot, Pepperbox does significantly less damage to normally effective enemies.

5. Thinking over the concept of this gun vs actually using it can be very different.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 18:09

#68

The-Rawrcake

If it is dealing less damage

If it is dealing less damage to slimes / constructs in comparison to Blitz because it knocks mobs away from other shots, this is change for no knockback is a must.

Bump for no more knockback.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 12:45

#69

Espil

entertainment

I have used the autogun and pepperbox since I began playing the game. I chose it for it's abnormalities and because I could use it anywhere. This weapon has been my primary weapon for several months, and has been used in numerous different scenarios both before and after the patch. I am personally disappointed with the missing vacuum effect, but since having to use the pepperbox's new features, I cannot say either is superior. Regardless, I am not so interested in the arguements for making the pepperbox balanced or effective. I believed this gun's features made it less boring than other options.

I understand that bugs need to be fixed, the direction mechanics are frequently taken just feel like lazy decisions. For this, apparently, someone decided that removing variety and unique properties from the game would make it more entertaining.
good call...
good call.

-espil

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 20:20

#70

Lomase

I guess this topic is doomed

I guess this topic is doomed to disappear into forum depths. And the DEVS will think why since everyone stopped talking about it the gun must be balanced...

RIP Pepperbox

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 20:26

#71

Stingz

This is sad day

I sold my Pepperbox right away after trying the new charge, its so terrible for damage now.
It was actually better the way it was before, sucking in enemies to point blank, and dealing tons of damage.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 08:17

#72

The-Rawrcake

Lomase Same deal with the

Lomase

Same deal with the shadow keys! people start to accept it. So much work making useless "protests"....

WE WANT OUR NO KNOCKBACK PEPPERBOX!!!!!!!!!!!! IT's fine if we don't have fishnig lure like we used to, JUST GET RID OF THE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE KNOCKBACK ON THE CHARGE THAT YOU GAVE IT AFTER REMOVING THE VACUUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think I might have yelled loud enough to make up for all of the quiet, clueless anti-shadow key supporters.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 15:54

#73

The-Rawrcake

Bump, it'd be nice to have

Bump, it'd be nice to have some feedback wether or not the knockback is getting taken off.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 20:11

#74

Fehzor

I'm fairly certain that Nick

I'm fairly certain that Nick meant what he said back on the first page, but then, you never know. He might go back and edit his post.

Mon, 03/05/2012 - 20:25

#75

Derpules

He said he wouldn't add the vacuum back.

That's not the same as saying the knockback will never be removed.

Tue, 03/06/2012 - 17:04

#76

The-Rawrcake

Knockback =/= knock in Get

Knockback =/= knock in

Get rid of KNOCKBACK.

Screw the vacuum, it's a done deal as Nick said, we could focus on more important things now.

Tue, 03/06/2012 - 17:05

#77

The-Rawrcake

I'll edit the title I bet

I'll edit the title I bet there is confusion on this.

Tue, 03/06/2012 - 20:39

#78

Threshy

Swods r betr anywa\

y r u usign guns in da 1st place swords r betr!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wed, 03/07/2012 - 16:53

#79

Theirillusion

omg so many walls of text.

omg so many walls of text. its just a bugfix, deal with it.

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 07:43

#80

Jimbo-Jambo

"deal with it"

What a compelling argument. I've never thought about it that way, but through this new light everything seems--oh, wait, no, it's still broken. Nevermind.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 11:06

#81

Verodius

For the love of god....

Remove the Knockback/increase the damage/both OR give us a Pepperbox Series-to-Strike Needle Series recipe. Because until you do the Pepperbox is now inferior to the Blitz Needle in every way even against the enemies it is supposedly "weak" against.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:20

#82

Autofire

Ha, yes this gun's charge now

Ha, yes this gun's charge now sucks, yes, I understand why you would get upset, and I even happened to have the 3* laying around, so I tried it. It can still be powerful. Just pin the enemy in a wall.

Now what I would love to see would be a calibur like spin, but it would be shooting (exploding projectiles?) instead. It would push every enemy in the room away from you.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 20:10

#83

Uuni

My ideas how to 'fix'

My ideas how to 'fix' pepperbox:

-Double the amount of pellets, drop the damage by 30-40% make them travel further than bliz needle
Now you get some sorta tradeoff for the lack of damage, more hits, more burn and more safety

-Charge attack lock enemies in place
No vacuum, no knockback, just stun in place. Useful at keeping mobs at distance, useful for dealing tons of damage at short range

That is all, goodnight citizens

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 22:26

#84

Lomase

Rawrcake... from reading your

Rawrcake... from reading your gun guide I have a feeling you never liked the vacuum in the first place.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 13:50

#85

Michaelb

Now, the only reason to get a

Now, the only reason to get a Pepperbox is for aesthetic effect and maybe JK.

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We understand that Pepperbox loses its PULL IN mechanic. Please get rid of the counterproductive knockBACK you ADDED, devs.