Spiral Knights - You've gotta be squidding me.

You've gotta be squidding me.

29 replies [Last post]

Wed, 02/22/2012 - 18:21

The-Cutest-Boy

Hail drivers.
Magma drivers.
Story drivers.
Nova drivers.
Polaris'.

These are 5 endgame guns that deal pure elemental damage.

Blitz needle.
Plague needle.
Callahan.

What do these 3 guns have in common?

If you answered, "They're all 5 star guns that deal pure piercing damage," you're close, but that wasn't the answer I was looking for.

They are now the complete list of all three 5* guns which not only deal pure piercing damage: all three of them force you to hold still with each. And every. Single. Attack. Leaving you as vulnerable and exposed as the average sword user. Did I mention you can't shield during any of these attacks? It's not just that they force you to hold perfectly still for those T3 gun puppies and lumbers that are about to go to town on your knight; you don't even have the common courtesy of being allowed to shield with a single one of the shots you fire.

Before this most recent update, which nerfed the Argent Peacemaker far beyond any hope of redemption, that was not the case. There was one gun, just [b]one gun[/b] that you should use against fiends that didn't force you to say, "Hey, I'm going to give up 90% of my defense in exchange to fight back," and many of us loved it. It was the Argent Peacemaker. I could always count on it to help me take down those fiendish butterfly healers, greavers and those incredibly, unbelievably fast-moving devilites. Now, with these "slow motion guns" being our only option for dealing piercing damage: gun users have officially been screwed over. Hard.

I overlooked this back when AP dealt 50% piercing damage, and only a fraction as many bars as other guns of its equivalent tier. Well, I will be silent no more. This is ridiculous. Out of all the directions you could've gone with the AP, you went... Elemental? That sure does help me when I'm being chased down by greavers, the only enemy in the game that can consistently run [b]faster[/b] than me, making them impossible to escape from, meaning I need to kill them *fast.* With the 3 slow motion guns being our only option, congratulations; you've now guaranteed 50% of my HP will be drained with each greaver or devilite encounter, the only two enemies in the game which already had a realistic chance of hitting me, due to their incredible speed.

If any devs are reading this: I implore you to TRULY balance the AP by giving it what it's rightfully been owed this whole time: the title of the only sane, reasonable piercing gun in the game, which deals pure piercing damage without forcing you to shout, "Yes, hello, I'd like an extra helping of 1,000% more damage than I'd normally take in this situation, please! :D" with every. Single. Shot. You take.

For now, I can't imagine why you would tip the scales at 6 pure elemental guns, 3 pure piercing guns which ALL force you to give up over 90% of your defense with every single mouse click, and dare to call this "balanced."

Still, good job on everything else, though; I look forward to checking out missions. Good day.

Wed, 02/22/2012 - 18:27

Trying

I like eating squid.

Wed, 02/22/2012 - 18:29

Clueless-Inferno

Game too hard for you now?

Game too hard for you now? Just use any sword to stop greavers, no biggie. AP becoming elemental actually make sense too, since it's uses are FSC (for damage there, where most enemies are weak to elemental), PvP (utility rather than DMG), and boxes/crystals.

Wed, 02/22/2012 - 18:31

Iron-Volvametal

...

"Blitz needle.
Plague needle.
Volcanic pepperbox.
Callahan.

What do these 4 guns have in common?

If you answered, "They're all 5 star guns that deal pure piercing damage," you're close, but that wasn't the answer I was looking for."

Volcanic Pepperbox doesn't deal Piercing.

Wed, 02/22/2012 - 18:38

The-Cutest-Boy

Trying - Neato. Only had it

Trying - Neato. Only had it once myself, but I loved it.

Purgion - I can't say for sure since I haven't yet done any missions, but I assume so, considering it's a fact that those guns reduce your defense. In other words, make you take more damage. Now that they're the only crit option against fiends... Yeah, Spiral Knights just got harder for everyone in the game who used to use AP. I would use swords, but they're terrible. Out of the hundreds upon hundreds of people I've partied with, only one sword user impressed me enough to be added to my friends list specifically for his skill. Bear in mind that he died once on this trip, but I overlooked it since he gave up half his health twice to revive the other two, pretty bad teammates. Meanwhile, I never die since I always use guns. Like I always say when I'm in parties: I'm not doing better than you because I'm more skilled. I'm doing better than you because I'm using 100% guns and you're using 95% swords, 5% guns. If you change your tactics, I promise you'll do better. Finally, AP becoming elemental doesn't make sense when there are already five extremely solid elemental options, most of which even come with the added benefit of dealing status inflictions. Adding a 6th elemental in exchange for taking the number of piercing ones down to 3 is the exact opposite of balance; it's a huge step in the *wrong* direction.

Iron - Thanks, fixed.

Wed, 02/22/2012 - 18:57

Fluffyfoxxie

It got easier for me, who

It got easier for me, who loved his AP before and after the patch, as a reliable sidearm for a pure Bomber.

Wed, 02/22/2012 - 18:58

Clueless-Inferno

Well, the way I see it, more

Well, the way I see it, more challenge = more enjoyment (to an extent). Glad to see you are a unique gunner btw. ;)
Also Callahan works excellently against all fiends (except greavers- those require more thrashing). Though I do agree, the game really doesn't need more elemental guns. It is a nice addition of course, and increases the utility of the gun. You can now use the charge on mobs of constructs now, on gunpuppies, and mobs. What makes it a good addiion is that it can go through mobs like the DA charge. If AP went pure piercing, it could be better against fiends, still decent against Undead, and weak against slimes and constructs. Since the endgame is mainly weak to elemental, then the AP change make sense in that way.

Also, next time you go to a restaurant, get calamari as an appetizer. You'll love it.

Edit: Just realized my argument doesn't make sense at all. I was trying to say that the AP was changed to elemental in favor of the types if monsters in the Endgame. On a less significant note, you said Story driver instead of Storm.

Wed, 02/22/2012 - 19:23

Goofio

I'm disappointed with this

I'm disappointed with this change, too. Unfortunately I didn't start playing this game until after the Arsenal thread had reached its conclusion. In addition, I didn't find that thread until after I had crafted an Argent Peacemaker. Before this patch, if I needed a piercing gun, there were a lot of situations where I would equip my Argent Peacemaker instead of my Blitz Needle, because firing the Blitz Needle leaves you extremely vulnerable, especially solo.

Based on the Arsenal thread, the ultimate goal was to get people to equip the Antigua guns more often. With these changes, I suppose I might equip the Argent Peacemaker instead of the Polaris for a graveyard or maybe FSC, but the Polaris is extremely useful, and I just don't know if I will be equipping the new Argent Peacemaker instead of the Polaris for most situations.

Wed, 02/22/2012 - 19:27

Gfjmember

Purgion, there is a

Purgion, there is a difference between luck and skill, and being immobile for a few seconds whilst hoping nothing decides to attack you is more luck :P

I must confess, I have only used the Antigua. By the time I could get the two upgrades, Nick had already made the post asking for feedback on weapon changes, so I have held off. (For reference I use two alchemers)

Gunners suffer from low damage, so we do have to exploit damage types moreso than other weapons. That's why the Leviathan and Nitrome are considered viable, whereas the Valiance is not. And I hope I haven't spelt anything wrong, and I am aware of the Nitrome's BSOD issues.

"Yeah, Spiral Knights just got harder for everyone in the game who used to use AP. I would use swords, but they're terrible." Actually, it's you are terrible at using swords, but at least you recognise it. Many players just go with swords as they have the highest damage output, and a player is better off with keeping their health than having someone with high damage output. And I think you'd agree with me on that one.

Greavers should probably be sworded. Even with a pure piercing antigua style gun, I suppose what one needs is knockback. To just break through the swarm. Some enemies are better sworded (devilites and greavers) and some are better gunned (lumbers and any turret, however if a stronger damage weapon can be used to smack a turret from behind whilst distracted...). I am sure some enemies are better bombed, but I don't have the bomber's mindset to decide.

Being able to stay mobile is important to being a pure gunner. This leaves gunners who already lean on type differences an effective way to deal with fiends and beasts.

Wed, 02/22/2012 - 19:45

Clueless-Inferno

^ Don't wanna be a b****, but

^ Don't wanna be a b****, but it's spelled Nitronome. ;)
I do get what you are saying though. Guns have suffered from low damage (some though; Polaris and Umbra/Nova drivers, and Callahan do pretty decent DMG in LD.) I still believe hoping not to get hit involves more skill then luck, since you have to position yourself correctly in order to get your shot off without consequences. For example, knowing when and where to shoot Vana from with a blitz needle charge is skill, not luck. I agree with you 100% that greavers need to be slashed, not shot at. They just are too easy to killZ

Wed, 02/22/2012 - 19:50

#10

Wuvvums

I think the idea for the

I think the idea for the Argent Peacemaker was to be a sort of holy-type gun, which is why it's elemental. It helps take out undead especially, while the Sentenza is the opposite dealing all shadow and hurting things like gremlins and jelly.

Elemental seems to be the equivalent of "holy" magic because I don't think they wanted to add too many damage types. And I don't see why you'd make the sentenza and the argent peacemaker all pierce. It sounds like they should have a third option for this gun tree that is normal or pierce. I dunno.

Wed, 02/22/2012 - 21:06

#11

Psychodestroyer

DUH

Then support the thread in suggestions asking for a Snarby gun/Pure piercing gun? As like a branch-off of the Antigua line?

Wed, 02/22/2012 - 21:19

#12

Diamondshreddie

there are in fact enemies that are better bombed

@Gfjmember

im a bomber, and what ive gathered, these are the enemies best bombed:

mechas, and most constructs except lumbers

wolvers, and.. maybe chromas .. not really

slimes (with status, blast sends them everywhere without kiting for so long)

so basically any enemy that mindlessly chases you (not too quickly) and doesnt shoot or throw (at completely random times and at incrdibly OP speeds) Stuff at you :D

Wed, 02/22/2012 - 23:21

#13

Tennis

---

Well, since a lot of people agree with the new change to Argent Peacemaker/Sentenza BUT you have good evidence of imbalance with gun variety, maybe we could implore OOO to come up with and release more guns.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 04:31

#14

Nubskills

@Tennis

@Tennis
Yeah, I think they suggested a Snarbolax gun from the antigua line to be pure piercing, still works, right? Except the devs prolly won't implement it :/

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 04:56

#15

Goofio

Okay, after trying the new

Okay, after trying the new Argent Peacemaker, I have to say that I like it for Undead levels (Candlestick, etc). It seems pretty effective at dealing with T3 Spookats and Howlitzers. However, it would be nice if there was a piercing version of the Antigua, too.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 06:27

#16

Schwalala

Get yourself Valiance, OP.

Get yourself Valiance, OP. Honest to God it's my favorite gun ever since I started consistantly using it. It does Normal damage, which means it's "good against everything"; you don't HAVE to rely on critical damage to fight successfully, and if it's Fiends you're worried about then a single UV should help. My Valiance has a Triple UV, none of them are against Fiends but I do +Low to +Medium damage against Constructs, Slimes and I forget the other one, which is all-around solid. ^^

Reason Valiance is so wonderful is simply the knockback. Every shot pushes them back quite a bit, and you can shoot up to three per reload (so you can pop off two, pause, and not suffer the reload slowdown). At first I didn't think it'd make that big a difference, but let me tell you, that thing shows Greavers who's boss! Two shots against a pursuing Greaver and it can't touch you. If you have a swarm behind you, you can repel a couple of them and you still should be able to Bash the rest away at the same time; it's not nearly as hectic as trying to Shield every single one.

You can still hit Devilites with it, though not as easily. Since AP still doesn't deal Shadow damage, if you want to use it on Devilites, you'll still be doing normal damage to them. It's not so bad. ^^

Oh, but you complained about Shielding... well, you really shouldn't be Shielding the Devilites unless you're close range, because they aggressively tear down Shields from my own experience. It's better to dodge them. When I fight Devilites with either the sword or the gun, I circle one while working my way closer, and when it attacks, I sidestep the projectile and then I run in swinging or shooting (if I'm using the Gun I usually fire WHILE sidestepping, because they don't dodge so well when they're in the middle of an attack). If I try to Shield and counterattack, I get it broken, sometimes in one hit. So instead I just dodge, and I use the Shield if I'm too close to dodge and I need a last ditch save.

You can dodge Greavers too, by the way! When they're behind you and they swoop in close, run right past them in the opposite direction. Their weakness is that they can't decelerate when they have that momentum during their chase. If you have a whole group on your tail, you can foil them best by trying to circle them as they each swoop in. And if you Bash them right as you do so then you can sometimes separate them from each other for a while, which can give you time to escape.

Finally, swords are awesome. >_> I use the Dread Venom Striker everywhere I go and it's never failed me. I love it's abilities in getting out of even tight-knit crowds by swathing a path through them with its epic ten-strike combo. But as a result I seem to be incapable of using even normal-speed swords like the Brandish line. x.x But anyway you should pick up a sword and learn to use it. Gunners shouldn't ONLY use guns, just like mages shouldn't only use magic (they should have a dagger as a backup weapon in case they get Silenced or something)! Pick something fancy that suits your ideal image. Cutter and Flourish lines are the fastest and flashiest IMO. Go with Flourish if you hate Fiends passionately and you want to look like a badass swashbuckler. >:3 Fun thing about Flourish is that you can ALMOST play it like a Gun in some cases; its Charged Attack spans an entire room when it lunges forward. You can one-shot even T3 Devilites with it by charging it up while sidestepping their attacks and then pilebunkering the little turd into the corner in one wild whack, and it's crazy-effective against Spookats too because they like to clump together and they pause right after they attack, so you can charge it, dodge them, and counter it with your raging ballista. S'way tight!

Soooo... yeah. They changed the game. U mad? Get even, not mad. Rebel against God and prove you can master a universe that has sought to destroy you. :O

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 07:59

#17

Simohayha

I'm disappointed in some of

I'm disappointed in some of the replies but glad about others.

The Argent Peacemaker in flavor-terms makes sense as an elemental gun, but we're already flooded with so many. I'm well aware there are other options against fiends (where AP was our go-to weapon), but they aren't as effective because fiends are both among the fastest mobs in the game AND dodge the most sporadically. Another reason the AP was beloved wasn't just that you could dodge/shield while shooting a volley -- a huge reason was bullet speed, which the "alternative" guns lack. Such speed is vital against fiend-type mobs.

Let's be honest with ourselves -- the AP was the gunner's DA. If the DA got the opposite treatment, split between two non-normal types of damage (just as devil's advocate), the board would erupt in a riot. The "swords are terrible" argument is mainly that swords are terrible to someone who has specialized and enjoyed great success as a pure gunslinger. Pure bombers and pure swordsmen should be able to empathize. "Just use a sword" shouldn't be a gun user's only out that doesn't involve being helpless while an inaccurate gun /might/ hit.

Just the way I look at it though.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 13:44

#18

Psychodestroyer

Thats why....

YOU SHOULD SUPPORT THE THREAD ASKING FOR A SNARBOLAX GUN IN THE SUGGESTIONS!!!!

It's hard to miss, it's clearly labelled 'Snarbolax gun' ><

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 13:59

#19

Reiyu

what the squid de geso!

they should make another mixed type guns. i liked my sentenza dealing half piercing and half shadow.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 14:02

#20

Alpha-Leader

lol

lol :D

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 15:15

#21

Simohayha

A third antigua?

A third antigua line -- a "snarbolax gun" with pure piercing -- would be an invaluable addition to a gunner's arsenal. The main problem after that is, with an Antigua of each type, why would a gunner use anything else?

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 15:23

#22

Evilduck

Why are you using piercing

Why are you using piercing guns on gun puppies and lumbers?

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 15:32

#23

Psychodestroyer

"why would a gunner use

"why would a gunner use anything else?"

Der, because the Antigua line isn't the BEST gun series. It has a semi-high rate of fire, a 6 shot clip and almost pinpoint accuracy. Also, you can move while firing.

However, people may prefer weapons with splash damage, wider range, a charge attack that doesn't give a lumber time to walk up and smash you, higher damage per shot, bigger knockback, normal damage-that's all I can think of atm.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 03:29

#24

Sirenblue

Off Topic:

*Gun starts out piercing*
*Upgrade options only have pure elemental or shadow*

What.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 04:11

#25

Stelli

Those piercing guns deserves

Those piercing guns deserves being vulnerable to attacks, as one charge does 3k + damage to vana, being able to one hit a trojan in a 4 man party. With ctr and gun damage max, I pull my distance away from the fiends and charge up and release at mid long range, perfectly fine for me.

As for the AP, it's so useful in FSC now, especially for my friends who does not use gun trinkets like i do, they offer nearly the same dps as swords from a safe firing range.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 14:08

#26

Fehzor

Well, there are only 2 beasts

Well, there are only 2 beasts and 4 fiends to fight with them, compared to 6 construct types and 5 undead to fight with elemental weapons.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 16:17

#27

Jadebla

Ironskullkid he didn't say

Ironskullkid he didn't say volcanic Pepperbox.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 17:54

#28

Evilduck

He obviously edited the post.

He obviously edited the post. Derp.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 21:33

#29

Dukeplatypus

Honestly, using Callahan

Honestly, using Callahan never really bothered me. It hits beasts and fiends before they dodge and flinch-locks gremlins. If you can still pull off very good mobility in, say, that arena room in a wolver den by shield canceling and learning how to dodge and not reload. I like the raw power so much I made an iron slug too. Hell, blitz and plague become very viable too after you realize, as Avixi told me, that they only have a charge attack. The charge just so completely outclasses the normal attack that anything else is a waste of time. However, I used to really like my valiance, but just doesn't stack up to the damage AP deals at closer range. At +6 on all mobs, the AP is more versatile and reloads less often than valiance, even with its slight at best knockback. Oh, and the charge. Not terribly practical to pull of due to the range at with you typically use it, but it sure is fun and mighty purdy.

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You've gotta be squidding me.