Don't get me wrong, I'm extremely grateful for the Antigua changes…but the Pepperbox got destroyed (knockback on a close range dps machine gun? seriously?)
I simply don't understand why they buff two guns but feel like they have to significantly nerf another.
Unfortunately, yes, OOO does seem to leave out gunners.
Ex: Shadowsun armor, no gunner rewards for shadow lairs, etc.
I've given up on hoping that OOO will ever buff guns at all. Our weapons are mostly fine, and giving us now-useful Elemental and Shadow guns where we already had useful Elemental and Shadow guns is nice, but it doesn't really fix much of the Piercing issue (i.e. Callahan is not that great when you aren't solo), and it definitely doesn't remotely change any of the armor. We've thoroughly made the case for any changes that need to be made and we basically have had no feedback about what the devs are thinking. If, after so many months of in-game usage, they still think guns are naturally OP enough to give us bad armor choices, then that's fine. It's their decision. But we want them to consider it and get back to us on their thoughts, and they aren't going to do that.
In short, give up, because the devs probably aren't paying attention to the forums at all, and if they are, they've seen what we have to say and are firmly committed to not telling us anything (and making odd changes like Pepperbox knockback.. I mean, where did THAT come from?).
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
HE'S KIDDING ME
YOU REALLY KIDDING ME BRO?
BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE YOU'RE PULLING MY CHAIN DAWG
HE'S PULLING MY CHAIN
WHAT A CLOWN
WHAT A JOKER
YOU REALLY JOKING MAN?
They make Argent Peacemaker the TOOTHPICK of guns and you're still crying about being left out in the cold? I MAD
@ Neodasus
lol at thinking AP is anywhere near as potent as toothpicks, especially in LD....
gotta say it once more
lol.
Still talking about OOO Hating Gunners? Boy that...that...
EDIT: Changed it. Now it's just the Pic.
I LOVE how they made AP and Sentenza worth the CE, but there are still a lot of other flaws with guns that have been ignored. Shadow Sun set, ALL (but 2) of the hats are 100% the same, kinda screwing the autogun line, no shadow lair gear, etc.
@Fluffyfoxxie
I don't know who you are, but you obviously don't play tier 3 lockdown. Having an argent peacemaker basically gives gunners a "full damage pass" on Skolver (most widely used set in T3 LD, especially in GvG).
Go play namewithnumbers and say that again
Agree with Neodasus on that. My career as a guardian may be over. Dont know that I can stand up to toothpicks now that I have to worry about shadow and elemental guns that will be very difficult to dodge. The polaris expanded shots could be avoided with a shield up and capturing a point.
both the AP and Sentenza doing pure damage give you so many options. AP alone is going to buff gunners quite a bit, and from the runs i've done recently, the Sentenza wipes the floor with menders better than the Umbra does.
Ladies and gentlemen, OOO doesn't hate gunners. There really isnt much wrong with out equip, tbh. Shadowsun excluded, im happy with what we have. Blitz pushback is fine, and I loathe the pepperbox with a passion. Normal damage weapons aren't that great to begin with, especially for a gunner. For pierce, blitz is a wicked weapon, you just need to learn how to use it. Callahan has the knockdown/stun effect on gremlins and wolvers, so that works fine as well.
As far as appearance goes, yes, the hats look alike. Its aesthetic. I would rather them release new content than redecorate my hat that no one ever sees anyhow. Costume armor is gold.
In closing, how many threads are necessary about the hate OOO has for gunners? only 1. It was made by Rawrcakes, and is likely the best of them. Let's take what we have, which is a nice buff to AP and Sentenza and enjoy it.
Anyone who thinks AP and Sentenza have "fixed" gunning is delusional. More options are great and all but this is like giving $100 to someone who has the flu.
man, I would so take $100 if I had the flu. Take some sick time from work, $100 in my pocket and I'll be fine in a few days.
Knockback on autogun... As if it was bad. True the bullets no longer suck enemies in, but makes us less likely to get hit. BUT, why not make the charge like blitz needle and simply NOT push/pull enemies? >_>
@ Neodasus
I actually do play T3 lockdown, and I found Skolver wearing flourish spammers to EVERYWHERE. I don't see exactly how AP is overpowered, considering that as a bomber, I die in 3 hits to a flourish. At least guns force you to make yourself slightly more vulnerable while using them, and any notion of distance is made irrelevant due to the Striker class. Striker gunslingers are good at not getting hit, but they already used AP/Sentenza, so nothing has changed there.
Honestly, what is there to fix? I mean really, i do all my runs with 3 guns and a sword, and only in case of close ups. I do just fine, and while i'm not the best in game, i can hold my own anywhere. I've done shadow lairs, I've done Vanaduke so often that i can do it with my eyes closed... what is your issue? What more do you want from OOO? Perhaps you would like a gun that OHKO's your enemies? I'm sorry, but the Antigua changes are welcomed, and our armor sets offer all 3 types of protection. Try being a bomber. Elemental defense only. No elemental DPS bomb. No shadow DPS bomb. A bomber solo relies on RSS and DBB for damage. How many choices do we as gunners have? Anyone who thinks that there is a real problem with gunning as a whole is delusional. The problem lies with bombers, and the lack of attention they get. Funny thing, I don't hear them complaining, and there are more bombers than gunners.
The real fix gunners needed wasn't the antiqua line changes, although they are welcomed.
The heart of the issue has been our awful armor sets compared to anything that sword users get. We have Shadowsun set which has handgun damage:low on each of it's pieces and then also makes you vulnerable to two status conditions. Swordies have Skolver or Snarbolox, wich both have sword damage bonus:medium and offer positive stats resistance.
Why? Guns already have lower base damage then swords, why do our armor sets also have to provide weaker stat boosts only further pushing gunning out of viability.
Not to mention that their are technically only three 5* gunner sets because one of them is just a standard anti-undead set usable by anybody.
We also have no shadow lair crafts.
OOO: Fix gunner armor and you fix gunners.
@Neodasus Big deal. Flourishes are still the most popular weapon despite being completely resisted by Solver.Skolver. Striker gunners rarely used Antiguas in the first place because they leave you more open when firing and do very little damage when fired in bursts of 1-3. The guns that were popular were already pure Elemental or Shadow, yet you almost never see a gunner break 10k damage.
Bombers only have elemental gear, gunners have at least piercing as well.
Guns can do all 3 damage types. Bombers are left with Nitro, DBB and maybe RSS. Not a single shadow DPS bomb. D:
Personally I think guns benefit from ASI thus having higher DPS.
In truth: swordies beat pratically everything. Then again generic knights in medieval times used the sword and shield set up anyway, and this is Spiral KNIGHTS. :p
they dont not like gunners
they just dont read the important things or assume things without reading what we say
we never said we didn't like pepperbox pulling in
we never asked for knockback on the pepperbox
I am not too upset because they went through with the antigua changes
but this specific change is a step backwards, no matter how small.
@Fluffyfoxxie
Oh, you're a bomber. Well I forgive you for not noticing how this changes combat, seeing as how you never actually fight. This changes everything, because of the damage boost. Most players don't think about it, but what matters the most in lockdown is what we call your "death count". It could be 3 hits with a flourish (you), two hits with a GF and a flourish (most +6 players) and so forth (mostly depending on your DMG+). Giving AP the option to go full blast on Skolver makes hybrids extremely deadly in most 1v1 situations. It basically reduces your "death number" to 3-4 no matter what (+6, +12 too are in danger of this), as a Skolver. LD is all about how many hits you can tank, and this just makes things a little more difficult for the striker that's carrying your team.
You have to think in terms of combos. Giving the player the option to attack twice with his BTB/FF and strafe backwards for an Argent Peacemaker finish is deadlier than it may seem to you. For my class, specifically, if the player isn't in close range my options are limited as to how I can break the opponent's rhythm. Before, I had the option of tanking a hit from the AP, but now I don't have that option as a desperation move.
This changes close quarters combat between competitive loadouts almost overnight. The AP is ESSENTIALLY the toothpick of guns simply because of the fact that you can quickly cancel your opponent's attacks (just as you would with a flourish). This is what I meant by what I said earlier: not by the frequency of use, but the actual role of the weapon.
Also, I've never seen a Skolver roll for max elemental. Sorry, but the current T3 metagame just isn't equipped to handle AP yet.
@Otaia
Because BTB/Flourish can cancel attacks the fastest (venom striker?) in smooth, controlled motions. (But so can the AP)
Well now it will be more common given the buff of AP, so just experience it for yourself, no need to stick around in this thread.
"Oh, you're a bomber. Well I forgive you for not noticing how this changes combat, seeing as how you never actually fight."
Woah, woah, woah. Is that some kind of Crack to Bombers?
I'm sure OOO is focusing on gunners as part of their issues to fix. After all, player satisfaction = more $$$, so it would make sense. Patience people...
Also, remember that gunning is NOT equal to swording (is this even a word?). Some threads carry on about how guns aren't doing the same DMG as swords, when it is blatantly obvious that this would be OP. Other threads complain about the armor, which definitely should be the focus for OOO before any gun weapon changes. Making the gunner armor more diverse would be a great fix, with the second priority change being the Shadowsun set. (Take this into UFSC/UGW and you're screwed). The thing that some people don't realize is that gunners have the advantage of damaging enemies from a DISTANCE, which in this game, is extremely significant. With a little skill, competent gunners (Br-Girl and Blueflood come to mind) might out-dps the less skilled swordies.
Solution to gunner dilemma in order of priority:
1) Provide an increased variety of gunner armor (just re-texturing for the sets)
2) Fix the stats on Shadowsun set
3) Make gunner armor start at 2* (saw this somewhere)
4) Acquire money & player satisfaction
Don't increase the DMG on the mainstream guns: They are fine.
Remember that these are only my opinions and suggestions.
TL;DR
@ Neodasus
I guess that makes sense in a weird sort-of way. But, I think the change overall will be healthy to the metagame, as it will encourage more varied sets, just like you mentioned earlier, Strikers wanting to get Elemental MAX on their Skolver set or what-have-you, versus getting Shock MAX. It could be a tough call for some!
The game is called Spiral *Knights*. Did knights used to use guns? Well, I've heard of crossbows, but not really guns. Did they use bombs? Not really. They used swords. That's why swords are the most dominant weapon series.
@ Invincibility
That's the dumbest argument I have ever heard.
Knights didn't have giant glowing laser swords, either. They couldn't shoot fireballs from their swords, and their shields didn't protect them in a little bubble, so I guess we should take all that away because REAL knights didn't have that stuff either, hmm?
And Judging by your Avatar, Invincibility, I'm Guessing Knights back then Skinned Wolves & Wore their Pelts to Boost their Speed/Strength.
I was talking about back then. Jeez, it's like every time I post something, I get hated on. If you guys think that I fail this much at the forums, then I think I'll just stick to the main game, and use the forums only for reading. o_o Cya'll.
They were talking about your broken logic. Geez....
You say 'Knights back then used X, therefore Knights now used X'.
They're just being sarcastic in saying 'Oh, so Knights back then used X with Y and ABC?'
The sarcasm just means they're irritated. Probably at broken logic with no leeway.
And Iron, Y U RANDOMLY CAPITALIZE!?
Yea, that's exactly what I was talking about. Every single freaking thing I post is corrected in a negative way. This forum just makes me sick, either because the mood is too negative, or I just suck at forum logic too much. Which one, I don't know. Either way I think I won't have any more interaction with the forums. I'm much better at the actual game. Goodbye unless an emergency occurs. Officially this time @ my last post.
I initially thought OOO hated gunners, but if you look at it closely they did a lot for us already.
They nerfed gremlin and wolver dodging making them much easier to hit
LD trinkets gave guns a much needed boost
The recent changes to AP and sentenza
Boosted the nova driver's damage
Introduced the catalyzer and polaris line
There may be other things (cant remember right now), but the point is they are trying, probably going slow to make sure not to overpower things. Just be patient and see what happens.
Please stop the "Do OOO not like gunners or something?" threads it's getting really old really fast. Please remember that Spiral Knights is still a very young game, and with all the new content they have been releasing over the last year (which is much, much more than most FTP games), and events/promo's, I think they have their priorities pretty well in order. It looks like they have addressed the vulnerability of not being able to move whilst firing (standard or charged) these weapons; making it easier to kill greavers whilst avoiding their status cloud etc.